December Chit Chat - Page 10 « Back to Group Discussions

[seraf]

Originally Posted by Jaimee 

Right, but my question is why are machine gun style weapons legal in our country? 

Hell if I know.

[ZippyGirl]

I haven't had a chance to read all of the posts, but we are all reeling here in Connecticut.  We live close to Newtown, my daughter was going to go to school at the Waldorf School in Newtown next year when she starts first grade, I've been there many times, we have friends who live there.  My former horse trainer's daughter was a kindergartner in that school, but she survived.  The brother of her classmate died.  Their neighbor died.  I was driving up to Massachusetts when the shooting happened, and a dozen police cars and ambulances raced by me.  I didn't know why at the time.  Newtown is a beautiful, peaceful town that for many embraces the New England ideal of pastoral living.  We were at a Halloween festival in Newtown, and I lost sight of my daughter for awhile.  One father patted me on the shoulder and said, "Don't worry.  This is the safest place on earth."  This is just beyond comprehension.  I can't even begin to tell you all what it is like to have this happen to people you know, to a school you drive past. 

Skewer me for saying it, but I am 100% anti gun.  I have always been.  They are a symbol and tool of violence.  And I am completely concerned about contagion.  I don't know if DD will go to school tomorrow.  Of course, she knows nothing of what happened, but I need to keep her close.  9/11 was traumatizing for me, but this is far worse.

So, now my husband and I have to re-assess our lives and choices.  I feel I cannot send DD to school there next year. 

[dashley111]

Oh Zippygirl, I am so sorry.  So so sorry.  I cannot even fathom how your community feels right now.  I do not even know what to say to you, and I cannot even imagine how shaken up your sense of safety must be.  There is not much you could feel that would not be justified.  I imagine the time it takes everyone to recover will be very long.  I just...have no words.

As far as fully automatic guns-  there are a ton of laws that regulate possessing them and selling them, but no laws regulating the sale of "parts" of them.  They are mostly obtained illegally, or obtained in pieces and pieced together by owners.  Even as a gun owner and someone who supports the right to own guns, I see absolutely NO purpose or place for them, and I find that they are so easy to get absolutely horrifying.  I don't see how they can help you protect yourself or your home without shooting all of your neighbors, and they definitely aren't going to help you catch your dinner. 

[LunaLady]

I honestly think that if we had either super strict gun laws or a ban on guns that it would make it so only criminals (or those willing to steal and break the law to get them) had guns. Kind of like the prohibition... The mafia and criminal gangs made a lot of money and had a lot of power that way.

I am not a fan of guns at all, other than hunting rifles to help you feed your family, but I just don't think there are any actual answers here. I do think our society (and world) is too far gone. I think the only thing we can do is try to make a safe and happy home and life for our families.

[seraf]

Anthea, I'm so sorry for the loss in your community. I can't even begin to imagine all you are feeling.

[Jaimee]

Anthea, I'm so sorry for the losses you are feeling.  How difficult to be so close to it all, to know of people that were killed, to feel unsafe, to feel uncertain of your daughter's safety at that school.  I hope you are able to find some peace and figure out your next step.  It's easy for me to say this so far removed from everything in CT and I hope you don't think me unfeeling for saying it, but the man responsible for this tragedy is gone.  It seems one of the only things that ordinary citizens can do right now is help those closest to it all move forward and one of the ways to do that is to rebuild the community and make it a place of happiness again.  Sending your daughter to the school you want her to attend in that neighborhood would be a way to do that.  Please forgive me if it is too soon to think something like this and if this sentiment is not helpful.

Huge hugs to you.  Sending healing thoughts your way. 

[Jaimee]

Originally Posted by LunaLady 

I honestly think that if we had either super strict gun laws or a ban on guns that it would make it so only criminals (or those willing to steal and break the law to get them) had guns. Kind of like the prohibition... The mafia and criminal gangs made a lot of money and had a lot of power that way.

While stricter laws may increase the trafficking of illegal firearms, I still believe that it would decrease the number of weapons around and make it much harder for those that are mentally ill to acquire one.  I don't believe that more people having guns is better than just criminals having guns.  Arming the masses does not prevent gun deaths, it causes more of them.  The statistics in other countries with stricter laws support this.  I can't believe that it's beyond fixing.  Haven't we got to try?  For our children?

[LunaLady]

Originally Posted by Jaimee 

While stricter laws may increase the trafficking of illegal firearms, I still believe that it would decrease the number of weapons around and make it much harder for those that are mentally ill to acquire one.  I don't believe that more people having guns is better than just criminals having guns.  Arming the masses does not prevent gun deaths, it causes more of them.  The statistics in other countries with stricter laws support this.  I can't believe that it's beyond fixing.  Haven't we got to try?  For our children?

Oh, I totally agree. I just worry about what exactly would happen in the here and now if we did tighten gun laws.

I think Morgan Freeman said it best...

Quote:

"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.

It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed
people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."

[LunaLady]

Well, apparently he *didn't* say that, but still. I think the words hold value!

[dashley111]

Its kind of hilarious that the Morgan Freeman quote wasn't actually him.  It was so highly posted on Facebook!

I spent a good amount of time while B was napping on me today researching different countries gun laws and how/when they became the way they are.  Most of the other low gun crime countries did not start out with the freedom to bear arms.  They were always heavily restricted or banned.  So, there is no way of knowing what would happen if we were the first country to try it.  To me, that is horrifying. 

[Jaimee]

Originally Posted by LunaLady 

Well, apparently he *didn't* say that, but still. I think the words hold value!

LOL, I wondered about this when I saw it going viral.  Same with the Mr. Roger's quote, but I think that one is real.

[Mal85]

I'm kind of torn on the issues surrounding this. On one hand, I do think strict gun laws are keeping people alive in these other countries. However, I can totally see the dangers in trying to take those rights away. I am surrounded by huge gun supporters in my community... In my family. It would be dangerous to focus on that right now. I do think that fixing the mental health system would be a big step in the right direction though. Something needs to happen. Something good must come from this.

[LunaLady]

As someone who recently needed really urgent mental help, I can say that YES the system needs help. I wasn't able to get the help I needed. I made appointments; but I couldn't be seen until 6 weeks later. I went to appointments, only to be shuffled around and then written prescriptions without much thought. I had appointments canceled on me without any notice. I even went to the ER and was told I was just a bored stay at home mom and that I needed to get out more. I was (as you all know, embarrassingly) extremely sick and suicidal and on the verge. It wasn't pretty and there was almost no help. Luckily, R's ped took me in when it seemed no one else would and she took care of me. I feel like I owe my life to her. I'm at such a better place, now, and I can't even imagine what would have happened if I hadn't decided to talk to her. I can hardly even believe where I was given where I am now. I'm so happy, now. I love my son more than anything and I'm so happy being his mama. Life is good! 

BUT, the system needs help. Desperately. Have you all seen this post? It's going around FB atm: http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html

[dashley111]

Oh Christina, I wish I could give you a great big hug right now. I am so so happy you got what you needed and that life is feeling so much better for you! I'm so happy that you are enjoying your son for the awesome little kid he surely is. I'm also sorry that it was so hard for you.

[birdhappy85]

Christina, I am sorry you had such a negative experience with the mental health system. I'm thrilled you're doing so well now, though!

Heavy message ahead.

I have to defend our present mental health providers for a moment, even if I do disagree with some of the ways the system is run. I haven't shared this before, but my father is a psychiatrist... and I have mentally ill family members. So I have seen all sides of this issue. What a lot of people don't know is that the medical system itself makes it very difficult for mental health professionals to help more people in the ways they'd like to. My dad has been one of the rare selfless individuals who treats patients who have no way to pay and nobody to help them, but most doctors will not do that. Insurance companies pay less money to mental health professionals than other physicians, so that is another hit against them. To make matters worse, the government has decreased its reimbursement to doctors caring for Medicare/Medicaid patients... subsequently, many doctors won't even accept patients on government assistance (many who need help the most!). There aren't nearly enough people going into the mental health field as is needed for our growing population of mentally ill. (This is often due in part to the less attractive compensation for being in that field.) The existing professionals are too overworked and especially over-paper-worked to be able to spend more time with their patients. I grew up with my dad on call 24/7 with patients paging him in the middle of the night, with my dad running out the door at all hours, working 12-hour shifts every single day... barely seeing his family because he dedicated his life to his patients... checking the obituaries every single morning for 30 years hoping today wouldn't be one of the days he'd see a patients' name... never finding a good way to de-stress from hearing other people's traumatic stories all day every day. It was and still is a very hard profession to be in, and I give a lot of credit to those who help our mentally ill.

Now, as someone who was traumatized myself by a mentally ill sibling for most of my life, I honestly don't know what the answer is for helping some of our mentally ill in society because I've seen every attempt to help my own sister to no avail. Some people just don't respond to help/treatment. If the parents of these mass murderers knew their kids were troubled but didn't know how to prevent them from doing something horrible some day, I can 100% understand their not having "done more" like others think they should have. I used to think it was denial that drove parents to defend their troubled children, but now I have slightly more compassion for what they must be dealing with. You can only do so much, and if someone is going to go so far as to thoroughly plan ahead a mass murder, they will likely find a way to do it... as scary as it may be for us to think about. This is why we can't live in fear every day or try to control every aspect of our lives because some things we must accept are just out of our control. But with that said, I will forever believe it is CRUCIAL that we make it harder for the volatile/violent or mentally ill people to have access to weapons. It's mental health 101 in the field to keep weapons away from the suicidal. Why isn't more care taken to keep weapons away from the potentially homicidal?

[Jaimee]

Christina, I remember that time and I am SO happy and relieved that you found help and are doing so much better.  My SIL was in a similar situation, though not so far as suicidal... yet, and couldn't find help that her insurance would pay for.  She had to seek state assistance and there was a mile long waiting list.  She eventually checked herself into the ER and a then a rehab facility and got some help.  She's better now, too, but we cannot expect our mentally troubled/ill population to be able to navigate a broken system to get help with they are on the verge of a total breakdown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by birdhappy85 
But with that said, I will forever believe it is CRUCIAL that we make it harder for the volatile/violent or mentally ill people to have access to weapons. It's mental health 101 in the field to keep weapons away from the suicidal. Why isn't more care taken to keep weapons away from the potentially homicidal?

I do not know why a mental health assessment is not required to purchase a gun.  I don't get it.  At all.  And I also do not understand the prevailing theory that guns in the home will help protect against violence.  His mother had to know that he was unstable.  Why in the world did she think guns in her home was a good idea?  Did she think she might have to use them on him?  Well, then she's a classic example of why guns do not protect against guns.   Guns often cause the deaths of those that own them, or worse, their children.  We had a shooting incident here in quiet little Urbana, IL where a 10 year old child accidentally shot his 4 year old sibling with his parents' gun.  This happens all the time.

And, Joanie, thank you for reminding us of the tireless efforts put forth by many dedicated members of the mental health field.  Your father is a hero for many people, I'm sure.

[Abraisme]

Anthea:   ::Hugs::  

I agree with everyone else here.  Our mental health system is terribly flawed.  We had a similar experience to Christina last year when we were trying to find a DR. for my DH.  It was a VERY frustrating situation and I can see how if you don't have a strong (family) advocate that you'd simply fall through the cracks again and again.  I had to call something like 30 doctors before we could find one that would take him.  The dr's in Oregon were all full AND they would only take LOW HASSLE type patients.  Even here in TN when we're looking for a dr, they have to review the case and then decide if they want to take him on.  Dr's get to pick and choose whether to take high-needs cases!  The people that need the most help, often have the least options.  Luckily George is considered a low-risk, stable case, but it's still frustrating.  If it was up to him, he just wouldn't find a doctor because you have to call a million places, you only get through to voicemail, then if you're lucky you'll get a call back.  The people who work in mental health are all way over worked and just don't have the ability to follow through long term.  After George was released from the hospital, we maybe got 1 follow up call and that was it.  Also, he was only admitted to the hospital because he went voluntarily.  If he didn't get on his own, they couldn't have forced him, even though he was obviously in a crazed state.  I can only imagine what would have happened to him over the next few days if he didn't get that help then.

[TalkToMeNow]

I have little to no help for my dd1, the one who was recently diagnosed with Aspergers. She has Kaiser insurance. The facility near us has one child therapist. The woman kicked dd1 out of therapy after three sessions. She doesn't have to deal with difficult kids if she doesn't want to, I guess. So a kid who probably needs therapy the most can't get it. I can't afford to pay out of pocket. I can't afford to double up and put her on my plan (I'd have to pay for the family plan; there is no option for just one kid). At 10 years old, my dd is almost my size. She occasionally has violent outbursts and has hit me. I can't forcibly move her or contain her. I don't think she'd really hurt me or her siblings, but she does get out of control at times. Right now, I really have no options for her. There is no help. 

[TalkToMeNow]

That was a dramatic ending.... um... but I am still positive! I always think everything will be okay! I'm hoping the school system might be able to help a little...

[seraf]

Amanda, have you thought about martial arts for yourself? Some are more about being able to redirect force that is directed at you. I hope that sounds logical instead of cruel. My brother (who was only violent in the way that many brothers in the unsupervised 80s were) and I took karate together and it was great for me to be able to deflect him without either of us getting hurt. Of course, deal with the underlying issues so she is safe and happy and all that, but if you feel afraid, it might be a good step to take.

Christina, I'm glad you are feeling better.

Joanie, I think you nailed a lot of what's wrong with the system.