GD Study: Hypothetical Situation #1

[IdentityCrisisMama]

This is a hypothetical situation for us to practice different philosophies of GD: 

You and your 5 year old have plans to go to the zoo with some friends who are driving a long way to join you. You were rushing out the door and decided to (at your child's insistence), let her wear a jacket that you felt was not quite warm enough. Your group was visiting the indoor monkey area. After watching the monkeys for a long time the group wanted to move on and have a picnic lunch. Your DC said she wanted to stay and eat lunch in the indoor monkey area. Eating is not allowed in that area and you told her it was time to go. She refuses and you do not know how to get her to move on to the next thing.  

What would you do? 

What are some different GD approaches that would work well in this situation? 

It's OK to get "out there" since this isn't a real family or situation. 

[Daffodil]

Hmm, I wonder if this is a good example to highlight differences between philosophies.  I expect most people would take pretty much the same approach here, no matter what their philosophy. First, find out why the 5-year-old wants to stay in the monkey area.  Because she thinks it's too cold outside?  Because she really likes watching the monkeys?  Because she's tired and doesn't want to walk anymore? 

If it's too cold for the jacket she's wearing, I'd try to find a solution for that.  Is there a place we could eat lunch inside?  Even if everyone else would rather eat outside, it doesn't make sense if there's someone who isn't dressed for it.  If the rest of the group feels really strongly about eating outside, maybe my DD and I could eat inside and then meet up with them afterwards.  Or maybe a little activity would warm my DD up enough for her to enjoy being outside.  Maybe I'd suggest playing an outdoor running game for 5 or 10 minutes and then see how she felt about the picnic lunch.  I might suggest the game as motivation to leave the monkey area, or I might get her out by saying we could eat lunch in a warm place inside and then once we were outside, see if I could get her interested in the game and then see if running around had made her change her mind about eating outside.  Or maybe I'd let her wear my coat over hers during the picnic.  Being cold for a bit might be better than letting her get so miserable that it ruined the outing for her and for the rest of the group.

If she had a different reason for not wanting to leave (like she wanted to spend more time watching the monkeys), I'd try to think of something that would give her a motivation for leaving.  Maybe I'd suggest that I could buy her some snack she liked or something from the gift shop.  Maybe I'd talk about some other animal or area of the zoo I thought she'd really be interested in. 

What I would really try not to do would be to make her leave.  It might get her out faster, but then she'd be in a terrible mood and getting her out of that mood, or waiting for her to get over it, would probably take a lot longer than it would have taken to come up with something that would make her willing to leave.  Maybe she'd end up so unhappy or angry that we'd just have to go home.  If nothing else was working, before resorting to carrying her out or walking out without her (so she would have to follow or be left alone), I'd probably try to make a deal with her.  If she'll do what I want - leave the monkey area - is there something I can do in return?  I'd see if she had a suggestion and if she couldn't come up with a reasonable one, I'd offer some that I would be okay with (buy her a candy bar?  let her watch a video this evening?  have an hour of special "mom and DD" time the next day?)

I suppose the "making a deal" idea is the one other people might be most likely to disagree with.  It's something I've done with my kids, and it does sometimes lead to a kid saying, "What can I have if I do X?" or "I won't do X unless you do Y."  But if it's not something I think it's appropriate to make a deal over, I won't.  Toothbrushing, for instance, just has to happen and I'm not going to agree to give any kind of bribe or reward for it.  Making a deal is a reasonable approach that adults often use when they want different things, and I think it's okay to teach kids to use that approach, either with each other or with adults.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by Daffodil 

Hmm, I wonder if this is a good example to highlight differences between philosophies.  I expect most people would take pretty much the same approach here, no matter what their philosophy. 

I actually had a hard time coming up with a hypothetical and I kind of rushed this so feel free to start a new hypothetical. That said, I think your answers contain a lot of different approaches. I see some consensual stuff, I see some "having to go home", I see you addressing some practical physical issues, some rewards, some compromise, some logical consequence, some parental sacrifice...I think there are A LOT of styles even in your one post, actually.  

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Here would be some of my random thoughts on this issue...

• 5 is starting to be of the age where I would want a kid to start thinking of dressing appropriately for the weather. Of course, I would not "punish" the child for not following my advice about the jacket but I would take some time to talk about her choices later that day (probably before bed when everyone is in a good mood). I don't know of any GD philosophy that specifically addresses this but talking about mistakes when we're removed form the situation and in a good mood has been the backbone of my parenting since my DC was quite young. 
• Oh...more later...baby needs me. 

[lilabet]

I'd have packed another jumper or something so she wouldn't be cold - lots of zoo bits are outside - maybe she wasn't cold when she left, but just needed another layer to be taken for her.

And I'd take her to eat outside. Once she had the extra layer on. She might whine for a bit but she would cheer up when distracted by yummy packed lunch with extra treats that I'd have packed. Kids that age still have attention spans of gnats. And anyway, by the time she was 5 I would certainly expect that she could snap out of a whiny mood fairly quickly.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

You did not bring the extra layer.

[lilabet]

She would have to get chilly then.

Probably this isn't a very GD approach thinking about it!

If she's lucky I've brought my scarf as usual and she can have that wrapped around her. She would be encouraged to eat v quickly then I'd chase her round a lot to warm her up.

[Daffodil]

Originally Posted by lilabet 

I'd have packed another jumper or something so she wouldn't be cold - lots of zoo bits are outside - maybe she wasn't cold when she left, but just needed another layer to be taken for her.

And I'd take her to eat outside. Once she had the extra layer on. She might whine for a bit but she would cheer up when distracted by yummy packed lunch with extra treats that I'd have packed. Kids that age still have attention spans of gnats. And anyway, by the time she was 5 I would certainly expect that she could snap out of a whiny mood fairly quickly.

Yeah, I always take along warmer clothes if I think my kids might need them, no matter what they say they want to wear. 

If my kid was just a little whiny about going outside but I expected her to enjoy her lunch and snap out of it, then maybe I would just make her go out with me.  But "you do not know how to get her to move on to the next thing" implied to me that the kid in this situation was really adamant about not leaving and was ready to put up a fight about it.  I imagined that even if I could manage to drag or carry her out, she'd end up sobbing hysterically or screaming at me and would be so angry and upset that she would then refuse to do anything else I suggested, like walk to the picnic area or eat lunch once we were there.  It would definitely be worth it to me to take 5 or even 10 minutes to work out a way to get her to leave willingly in order to avoid that situation.

[lilabet]

I think if screaming were involved I'd probably resort to bribery, of the - "I have something amazing for you in your lunchbox. Lets stop crying and go find out what it is!" kind.

[Mittsy]

The clothes issue, I would have just packed a warmer jacket for if she got too cold. It's not that big of a deal for me to carry around in my backpack, and her comfort is important to me.

The food issue I would have calmly explained to her about the rules and then validated her while she lets out her emotions. From there I would let her choose when she is ready to leave that particular exhibit and where she would like to eat. I would point out that if she would like to stay at the exhibit a while or eat somewhere other than her friends we may not get to see them again that day, but I would not tell her this to manipulate her to do things my way instead just to let her know so she's not surprised unpleasantly later.

ETA: If you forgot the warmer clothes I would discuss that with her and see if may'be a compromise such as eating inside, borrowing a sweater from a friend and returning it at a later date, or cutting the trip short if she's really uncomfortable would be a option.

If she's screaming I would automatically direct her to a less stimulating enviroment where she can get her feelings out and talk. After she's feeling better I would talk to her about going to a private area to process those emotions since we're out in public and they could be disturbing to other people.

[One_Girl]

I would explain that eating isn't allowed in that area then ask if she wants to eat with her friends or continue looking around at animals. I would also pack another jacket in case my dd wanted it.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I'm thinking there are a lot of ways to go with this: 

• "Playful parenting" - try to cajole her into participating by helping her get out of her funk. Offer to run around to help stay warm. Offer to race to the picnic spot. This is so, so not my style but I could see this working well for everyone (zoo guests included) 
• "Natural consequences" - allow her to experience being cold on the outing. Explain that you and the group will do your best to move to warm spots but that choosing do dress in an inappropriate way has consequences. In this case you could incorporate some strategies for next time: mama helps carry a jacket (not something I would be all that eager to do but that's just me), or offer to help your child figure a way to carry their extra stuff. 
• "Logical consequences" - next time DC does not get to choose her jacket. Decide you need to go home. 
• You could employ some sort of appeal to her sympathy about friends driving a long way to visit. At 5 I think this is appropriate. There are ways to do this that are either harsh or gentle. 

For me, there would be a lot to consider with this scenario. First, I would have a hard time not spending time with friends who drove a long way to visit. I think I would not give that as an option. I would really have a tough time with this scenario. I suppose that I would have to factor in that the obligation I feel towards spending time with friends is my issue though. And, as much as it would irritate me to take responsibilty for my child not dressing appropriately (assuming I had given advice before leaving the house), I would feel somewhat responsible for not at least putting a jacket in the car. Being the mom and all. 

I don't think I would be comfortable with a bribe in this situation. I have reserved bribes for long struggling issues that I couldn't solve in other ways - I rarely used them for quick fixes. To tell the truth, I'd be more likely to resort to some sort of threat, "If you can't sit with us in the clothing you chose to wear today while we have a quick lunch, I am not going to allow you to pick your clothing." This would probably be my last ditch effort. 

But, yes, I would probably be willing to share my clothing if I felt my DC were able to accept that offer with some sort of gratitude and it would truly help her get to a good space. I'd be open to borrowing something for sure (would probably have asked before it got to the point of being cold in the first place). I would probably also be willing to cut the trip short as a group and inviting folks back to our place. 

Then, yes, we would talk and figure out a plan for next time. I would want DC really involved. It wouldn't be ok with me to repeat this scenario only this time me having lugged around a 5 year old's jacket. This is not to say that this can't be a totally fine solution for others but I'm a light packer. ;-)  That would feel like a hardship for me. I may look into whether DC's jacket isn't fitting well or isn't comfortable. Maybe it's too hot. We would talk a lot about having guests and what that means to me. 

[lilabet]

Oh yes, I totally agree we'd be having a conversation afterwards, and certainly any time she thought she would be fine in a lightweight jacket again would get short shrift.

I don't really let my 3.5 year old sulk. Which is why I might be in the wrong forum. He knows he just can't wander round all day sulking about stuff - I expect a certain amount of cheeriness if he is doing cool stuff like being at the zoo.

I forgot friends had come from a long way - that would totally mean leaving early wasn't an option, unless they really wanted to come back to mine. Child would have to suffer the consequences!

[Daffodil]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama 

Here would be some of my random thoughts on this issue...

• 5 is starting to be of the age where I would want a kid to start thinking of dressing appropriately for the weather. Of course, I would not "punish" the child for not following my advice about the jacket but I would take some time to talk about her choices later that day (probably before bed when everyone is in a good mood). I don't know of any GD philosophy that specifically addresses this but talking about mistakes when we're removed form the situation and in a good mood has been the backbone of my parenting since my DC was quite young. 

I would actually try not to do the "I told you so" thing afterwards.  I'm sure you wouldn't do it in a "Ha! I told you so!" sort of way, but still, nobody likes a "let's talk about the mistake you made today" conversation.  If the kid got cold, I think you can assume she realized her clothing choice was a mistake. I don't see any need to talk about it.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by lilabet 

Oh yes, I totally agree we'd be having a conversation afterwards, and certainly any time she thought she would be fine in a lightweight jacket again would get short shrift.
I don't really let my 3.5 year old sulk. Which is why I might be in the wrong forum. He knows he just can't wander round all day sulking about stuff - I expect a certain amount of cheeriness if he is doing cool stuff like being at the zoo.
I forgot friends had come from a long way - that would totally mean leaving early wasn't an option, unless they really wanted to come back to mine. Child would have to suffer the consequences!

I know. I'm sure there is a fine line between letting a child experience and have their own emotions but I also think a parent is a great reflector of mood and expectations. I'm a fan of appreciating how good we have it. My most frustrating parenting situations are when my DC is having a beautiful life and is having trouble appreciating it. 

And wouldn't you know that we are about to enter the teen years - YIKES!  (doing a disservice to my theory on positive expectations)  

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by Daffodil 

I would actually try not to do the "I told you so" thing afterwards.  I'm sure you wouldn't do it in a "Ha! I told you so!" sort of way, but still, nobody likes a "let's talk about the mistake you made today" conversation.  If the kid got cold, I think you can assume she realized her clothing choice was a mistake. I don't see any need to talk about it.

The opposite had been true for my DC (now 11). Maybe it's a temperament thing or maybe it's the spirit in which I we do it, I don't know. When DC was young and I was putting her to bed, we always recapped, whether the day went 100% well, whether I made a mistake or whether there was something she could have improved upon. So it was built in and expected no matter the day. 

Now that she's older I have actually said, "I told you so," or, "You know I am always right?," or, "I HAVE lived 26 years longer than you." Of course, these are all said a bit tongue in cheek and only when DC is in a good space...but maybe the talks we used to have have taken the sting out of taking responsibility for errors? 

I don't know. 

But, YES, if it isn't a good fit for you or your child -- fine, fine, fine!  

And, if you chanced upon a kid who realizes mistakes without a talk -- oh, man...tell us your secret! 

[Daffodil]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama 

• "Natural consequences" - allow her to experience being cold on the outing. Explain that you and the group will do your best to move to warm spots but that choosing do dress in an inappropriate way has consequences. In this case you could incorporate some strategies for next time: mama helps carry a jacket (not something I would be all that eager to do but that's just me), or offer to help your child figure a way to carry their extra stuff. 

This doesn't feel like the best approach to me.  If the kid is cold, she's not going to be having fun, and if she's having a bad time probably all of us will be having a bad time.  If there aren't that many indoor areas and there's no extra clothing she can put on, maybe it's the only choice, but I'd probably do everything I could to minimize the amount of time my kid was spending shivering, unhappy and complaining.  Teaching her a lesson about making good clothing choices wouldn't be worth spoiling what should have been a fun outing.

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama 

Then, yes, we would talk and figure out a plan for next time. I would want DC really involved. It wouldn't be ok with me to repeat this scenario only this time me having lugged around a 5 year old's jacket. This is not to say that this can't be a totally fine solution for others but I'm a light packer. ;-)  That would feel like a hardship for me. I may look into whether DC's jacket isn't fitting well or isn't comfortable. Maybe it's too hot. We would talk a lot about having guests and what that means to me. 

If it felt like too much trouble to carry an extra jacket, I definitely wouldn't let my kid pick a jacket I didn't think would be warm enough.  When it's convenient, I prefer to let my kids make their own jacket choices (with advice from me, which they can ignore.)  Then I bring backup clothing if I think they may need it.  That way we avoid a fight leaving the house and they get practice making the right choice for the weather (and finding out what happens when they make the wrong choice.)  And they may know better than I do what will be comfortable for them.  Often they're comfortable in much lighter jackets than I want for myself.  But if their bad choice is going to cause trouble for me or result in their getting way too wet or cold, I don't let them make it.  (I was just asking my 7 year old about this scenario, and he said, "Well, I think the mom should make the kid wear a warmer jacket."  So he agrees.)

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by Daffodil 

This doesn't feel like the best approach to me.  If the kid is cold, she's not going to be having fun, and if she's having a bad time probably all of us will be having a bad time.  If there aren't that many indoor areas and there's no extra clothing she can put on, maybe it's the only choice, but I'd probably do everything I could to minimize the amount of time my kid was spending shivering, unhappy and complaining.  Teaching her a lesson about making good clothing choices wouldn't be worth spoiling what should have been a fun outing.

This wouldn't feel right to me either. I think there is a very, very delicate balance between giving your child the benefit of experience and allowing them to suffer and putting yourself out as a mother. I think this is probably the crux of GD for me. 

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daffodil 

If it felt like too much trouble to carry an extra jacket, I definitely wouldn't let my kid pick a jacket I didn't think would be warm enough.  

What we did was pick times where it wasn't too much suffering if DC picked the wrong jacket. So, when it's would be unreasonable for her to be cold for that long, I would force the issue. When she could go ahead and freeze for the short outing, I would let her pick. That's been a good middle ground for us. 

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Daffodi -- will you do one? It's difficult for me to really work my brain on a scenario I put together. And I think this is fun! 

[Snapdragon]

I only have a 2.5 yr old (and only read and am responding to the first post)- so my answer may be skewed a little to my younger child experience and I haven' t parented a 5 yr old yet!

I would say- c'mon dc (dear child) we are all going outside to eat.

If she said no I would say- remeber we brought those yummy cookies/muffins/whatever kind of food, let's go have it!

If she said- no! I want to eat in here! I won't come!

I would pick her up (or in my 2.5 yr old's case put them in the stroller- I am not sure if a five yr old an be contained in a stroller), or take her by the hand or however- and if she protested I would have something like a cookie or something she liked and say- here dc, you can have this cookie while we walk.

And then just go.

:)