Ridiculous quote from Dr. Tenpenny - Page 4

[Taximom5]

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2008/07/28/prl20728.htm

Critics of drugmakers' marketing techniques greeted the new code with deep skepticism.

The changes are "completely cosmetic" and "intended purely to fool the public into believing that PhRMA is taking this issue seriously," said Daniel J. Carlat, MD [a former drug firm-paid speaker].

"Pens, Post-it notes and mugs have never been the focus of critics of industry marketing tactics," he said in an e-mail. "That is chump change compared to the platters of food brought in to feed the entire office staff, which is done to cement a good relationship with the doctor and to ensure continuous access in order to deliver sales pitches."

 

[Turquesa]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

I would respectfully disagree with this.  I think most people would like to think that they would not be swayed by a coffee mug or pen, but there has been some pretty good research done on this.  Doctors truly are influenced by the swag.  Similarly, there is a huge influence on prescribing habits when doctors keep free samples of medications in their office.  Those doctors prescribe more expensive, name brand meds.

Which is why I haven't allowed drug reps to detail in my office since 2007.

It's too bad that the "free lunches" are still in practice, though. (Per the link above). The swag was just a brazen admission to patients that they were going on. We were discussing a few threads ago about why patients weren't trusting their doctors. Speaking from the patient's side of the exam table, I think that these kinds of pharma-doc relationships have undermined the trust and credibility and trust that patients should ideally have in their doctors. Obviously that's not the only factor, but it's a pretty important one.

I don't think that profits from non-vaxxing can fairly be compared to profits from vaxxing. Nobody makes any money when I decline the flu shot. And not all of us alterna-vaxxers are interested in whatever the hell those magic potions are that Mercola sells. (I don't even like or visit that site).

ETA: WTH's going on with that quote feature? Oh well...

[WildKingdom]

I was having the same problem with the quote feature, turrquesa.

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

And it's true, there's been a ban on this kind of stuff since 2009.  If anyone is seeing anything in their doctor's office, it's old.

2009 isn't that long ago. And it's only a voluntary ban. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turquesa 

 Speaking from the patient's side of the exam table, I think that these kinds of pharma-doc relationships have undermined the trust and credibility and trust that patients should ideally have in their doctors. Obviously that's not the only factor, but it's a pretty important one.
 

Yes. It certainly has undermined doctors' credibility in my eyes the times I've seen this junk in their offices.

So much so that I've paid out-of-pocket to see holistic doctors rather than use my insurance to cover the mediocre ones.

It's a good thing I had the money to do it. I feel sorry for people who don't have a choice. 

[Rrrrrachel]

A voluntary ban actually means more to me.

[Chicharronita]

Well it looks like some doctors and the pharmaceutical and restaurant industries in Massachusetts didn't like it so much.

Ban on pharma meals for physicians overturned

Massachusetts, the first state to ban all gifts from industry, says “modest” food and drinks are OK.

[chickabiddy]

And you're absolutely sure that "holistic" doctors never get courted by supplement manufacturers, and don't profit in any way from things they sell in their offices?

[Chicharronita]

LOL. I'd welcome seeing an "ECHINACEA HEALS!!" poster in their office, and samples of vitamin C.

But sadly, they seem to just have bland posters of waterfalls or sunsets (at least the ones I've been to) and no samples to hand out.

[WildKingdom]

There is not a ban on meals. There is a price limit- I think it's 15.00

I truly think its ironic that you're ok with a "holistic" doctor prescribing something that he then sells you. To me, this is completely unethical.

I have a patient who saw a local naturopath. She saw her once, and came out with $1200 worth of supplement to treat a by cm of conditions that she didn't have, including Lyme disease.

The only condition she does have is a severe anxiety disorder, which the naturopath complete took advantage of. So, please don't tell me they're not getting rich off selling things in their office. $1200 for one visit and supplements. You know how much a general surgeon makes for doing a cholecystectomy? Under $500. And that's for performing surgery on someone and providing the next 90 days of care.

A GYN makes about $1000, for delivering a baby AND proving 9 months of care before and 6 weeks after.

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

There is not a ban on meals. There is a price limit- I think it's 15.00

As far as I'm concerned, that's fifteen bucks too many. I'm glad that some medical students and doctors with integrity also think so:

Quote:

Medical students wanted ban upheld

Not everyone in medicine is pleased with the change. A coalition of nearly 100 medical students, residents and academic physicians wrote legislative leaders and the governor in a bid to retain the state’s gift ban in its entirety.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

I truly think its ironic that you're ok with a "holistic" doctor prescribing something that he then sells you. 

My doctor is primarily an MD, and AFAIK only sells salivary cortisol tests for his patients' convenience, since most HMOs don't cover the cost. It's about $125; you can get them online for slightly cheaper.

Quote:

I have a patient who saw a local naturopath. She saw her once, and came out with $1200 worth of supplement 

 

But she didn't have to buy them from the naturopath.

In any case, one of the reasons to see a naturopath in the first place is to get advice on what supplements to take.

They have access to fancier versions of vitamins and herbs. But of course you're free as a patient to find bargain versions of the recommendations. 

Quote:

The only condition she does have is a severe anxiety disorder, which the naturopath complete took advantage of.

It's too bad if she felt that way, but on the bright side taking vitamins and herbs as commonly recommended won't kill you like Vioxx, give you liver damage like Vicodin and Percoset and many others, cause you to temporarily forget who you are and where you are like Lipitor, damage your children's reproductive organs like DES, etc., etc.

Which leads me back to Dr. Tenpenny's quote; when you look at the list of problems and "side" effects that FDA-approved drugs have caused, it's easy to see why she said that.

Quote:

$1200 for one visit and supplements. You know how much a general surgeon makes for doing a cholecystectomy? Under $500. And that's for performing surgery on someone and providing the next 90 days of care.

A GYN makes about $1000, for delivering a baby AND proving 9 months of care before and 6 weeks after.

 

 

Hmm, but for some reason medical schools are not losing students...who think they won't be making money after graduation (and this is WITH the hefty student loans they're saddled with, another scam that's OT). 

Edited by Chicharronita - 12/6/12 at 5:53pm

[WildKingdom]

Originally Posted by Chicharronita 

As far as I'm concerned, that's fifteen bucks too many. I'm glad that some medical students and doctors with integrity also think so:




It's too bad if she felt that way, but on the bright side taking vitamins and herbs as commonly recommended won't kill you like Vioxx, give you liver damage like Vicodin and Percoset and many others, cause you to temporarily forget who you are and where you are like Lipitor, damage your children's reproductive organs like DES, etc., etc.


Which leads me back to Dr. Tenpenny's quote; when you look at the list of problems and "side" effects that FDA-approved drugs have caused, it's easy to see why she said that.

You sure no one is dying or being harmed by herbal meds and vitamins?
http://whatstheharm.net/herbalremedies.html

[Rrrrrachel]

Herbal remedies are either a) ineffective and therefore unable to cause harm or b) effective, and therefore able to cause harm.  Can't have it both ways.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Herbal remedies are either a) ineffective and therefore unable to cause harm or b) effective, and therefore able to cause harm.  Can't have it both ways.

 Oh really....

Here is just one, the well known spice cumin:

Quote:

2010, research published in the journal Food Chemistry and Toxicologydemonstrated that cumin has blood sugar lowering properties comparable to the drug glibenclamide (known in the US as glyburide), with the additional benefit (not conferred by pharmaceutical intervention) that it also lowered oxidative stress and inhibited the advanced glycated end products (AGE) which are implicated in the pathogenesis of diabetic microvascular complications.

 It has also been show to help, bacterial infections, Candida (yeast) infections, cataracts, cancer (cervical), dental plaque, diabetes, food-borne pathogens, immune function, fertility, memory disorders, morphine dependence/tolerance, osteoporosis and thrombosis (clot). You can check all the references in this article.

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 


You sure no one is dying or being harmed by herbal meds and vitamins?
http://whatstheharm.net/herbalremedies.html

I don't have time to wade through all the articles, but I doubt most of these people were taking them as they've been used successfully for thousands of years (as opposed to modern drugs). 

Most of the ones I've read about ephedra are about people definitely NOT using them safely (sheesh, are people just smarter in China when it comes to herbs?).

I did read this one:

Giving up hope of miracle, man buries his slain toddlers

Quote:

Beginning at age 13, she said, she began a repeated pattern of failed suicide attempts. She was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic and for some time took an anti-psychotic medication, which she dropped in favor of herbal remedies.

Your site says she took St. John's Wort. Although it wasn't specifically mentioned in the article, I believe she took it. But St. John's Wort is mainly indicated for low to moderate depression, not major issues like PS.

And if her "medication treatment for this was very successful" as your site claims, why would she have dumped it in favor of an herb that's not even indicated for her condition? Could it be be because of "side" effects?

Edited by Chicharronita - 12/6/12 at 1:08pm

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

 

You sure no one is dying or being harmed by herbal meds and vitamins?
http://whatstheharm.net/herbalremedies.html

And a heck of a lot more people are killed by properly prescribed pharmaceutical drugs every year, with 2.2 million hospitalized and 106,000  of those killed. I'd take my chances with herbs.

http://www.leadingcauseofdeathprescriptiondrugs.com/

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Herbal remedies are either a) ineffective and therefore unable to cause harm or b) effective, and therefore able to cause harm.  Can't have it both ways.

Well of course they are effective and can cause harm, if not taken as indicated. It just takes common sense. 

Unfortunately, a lot of sick people who are treated with medications with undesirable "side" effects wait until they are really desperate and tired of them to change course, and may not be in the right frame of mind to properly research.

Or in the case with advanced stages of cancer, waiting too long to make a switch (then when they do, and die anyway, their deaths are conveniently blamed on the treatment). 

The other problem is that people think "a little is good so a lot must be better."

I have cured myself of many problems, including chronic UTIs that I suffered with for years. It took a five dollar bottle of magical sugar pills to put an immediate stop to symptoms, and then taking some more along with herbs to cure myself permanently. 

[Chicharronita]

Doctors were perfectly happy with prescribing me antibiotics and Pyridium every six months, and me being young and not knowing any better, took them. 

I can't blame them for giving me the only treatment they could with their limited knowledge; but I am glad that I learned about other alternatives.

I'm pretty sure this is also the kind of thing Dr. Tenpenny is talking about. UTIs are pretty common in young women.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

There is not a ban on meals. There is a price limit- I think it's 15.00
I truly think its ironic that you're ok with a "holistic" doctor prescribing something that he then sells you. To me, this is completely unethical.
I have a patient who saw a local naturopath. She saw her once, and came out with $1200 worth of supplement to treat a by cm of conditions that she didn't have, including Lyme disease.
The only condition she does have is a severe anxiety disorder, which the naturopath complete took advantage of. So, please don't tell me they're not getting rich off selling things in their office. $1200 for one visit and supplements. You know how much a general surgeon makes for doing a cholecystectomy? Under $500. And that's for performing surgery on someone and providing the next 90 days of care.
A GYN makes about $1000, for delivering a baby AND proving 9 months of care before and 6 weeks after.

Hmmmm I just attended a pharmacuetical dinner at a lavish steak house last night. I can assure you my meal was WAYYYYYYY more than $15.00. Had I gone to that restaurant and ordered what I ordered off the menu, including the alcohol I consumed, my meal would have been about $100.00 (including booze)

I know quite a few ND's. None of them do business like this and none of them are anywhere close to getting rich. Just as there are quality MD's out there  and unethical ones, such is the case for folks in the "alternative" medicine arena. 

[Chicharronita]

If I shut up, is there a chance I could be invited to a pharma-paid steak dinner? I could sure use one sometimes. I'm a pretty cheap date; I don't drink alcohol.  ;-)

[Turquesa]

Originally Posted by Marnica 

Hmmmm I just attended a pharmacuetical dinner at a lavish steak house last night. I can assure you my meal was WAYYYYYYY more than $15.00. Had I gone to that restaurant and ordered what I ordered off the menu, including the alcohol I consumed, my meal would have been about $100.00 (including booze)

I know quite a few ND's. None of them do business like this and none of them are anywhere close to getting rich. Just as there are quality MD's out there  and unethical ones, such is the case for folks in the "alternative" medicine arena. 

Um, I'm morbidly curious. What were you doing there at that dinner?