Evidence of govenrment cover-up re: vaccines and autism - Page 11

[CatsCradle]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

 I get a little tired of people who don't frequently post here coming on and whining about how nasty these subforums are. Forums are only as good as the posters that post in them, and if you think you can bring a fresh or moderate voice - bring it.  Essentially - put up or shut up.  

I don't go onto a forum I never post in (say, homebirth) and start complaining about the nasty tone, or lack of moderateness.  It is none of my business, and if I want to make it my business, then I need to try and engage in a genuine way first and get a bit more active in posting.  

Kathy:  I understand your position and I respect that and try to employ the same standard.  However, I just see outrageous comments being made about the medical profession in general and I have many family members in the medical community (which I guess makes me sort of biased) and I just need to respond on a lot of levels.  For me, it isn't even about vacs per se, just the stuff that I've read on here lately which seems to damn science and the medical profession as evil.  Frankly, as a vegetarian (to cite a bad example) I would do the same if people were bashing vegetarians as commies or dumbells in the general nutrition forums.  I've tried to be careful in my response, but I really have a bad habit of calling people out when I think their posts are factually deficient or open to debate.  I browse all the subjects, and post in very little actually.  When I do browse and see something that causes a gut reaction in myself, I do feel compelled to respond.  Sorry.  

[Imakcerka]

Well there are deaths connected medical... and deaths with no medical intervention at all.  I think I know where I want to take my chances.  And I've watched someone die of cancer who chose no medical care because she didn't want to burden her family with expenses.  I will never shake that experience.  And I can not fathom her physical pain.  But you know what, life happens and I'm sure if she just injected herself with Vit C she would not have had a cancer ravaged body. 

[prosciencemum]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

I'm sure if she just injected herself with Vit C she would not have had a cancer ravaged body. 

LOL. I don't know why we're wasting so much time, effort and tax dollars searching for the cure for cancer when we can just inject vitamin C in everyone.

Seriously though - it's one thing to consider alternative medicine as an extra, and I think a lot of people could do for more for their general health in terms of exercise and nutrition which there is evidence to suggest would reduce the general amount of ill health. But thinking all modern medicine is a waste of time is in my opinion a ridiculous opinion.

And medical error as the 3rd cause of death overall. Doubt it. You're seriously suggesting its ahead of all but two other causes of death. I'm sure I posted somewhere a list of leading causes of death once before. I'll be right back.

[prosciencemum]

Oh that was quick. From the CDC (2009 stats).
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm



Heart disease: 599,413
Cancer: 567,628
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 137,353
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,842
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 118,021
Alzheimer's disease: 79,003
Diabetes: 68,705
Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,692
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 48,935
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 36,909

So are those asserting this statistic suggesting more than 137,353 deaths were caused in 2009 directly by medical malpractice and the CDC is just covering that up?

[prosciencemum]

The opinion piece taxi mom posted suggests in 2000 that 44-98 thousand deaths were caused by malpractice (but includes no reference for that). Even if that's true compared to 2009 death rates it's down to 6-9th cause of death. Curse really need a rate in 2009 to make a fair comparison. Doubt it's likely to have increased by a factor of 2-3 though...

However I do think it makes some good points about problems with the us health system. Seems great, if you have the money..... Personally that makes me uncomfortable. I've never thought rich people are more deserving of better health.

Worth a read (even if 12 years old now)
http://www.delcotrial.org/media/pdf/000726_jama.pdf

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

Oh that was quick. From the CDC (2009 stats).
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm
Heart disease: 599,413
Cancer: 567,628
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 137,353
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,842
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 118,021
Alzheimer's disease: 79,003
Diabetes: 68,705
Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,692
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 48,935
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 36,909
So are those asserting this statistic suggesting more than 137,353 deaths were caused in 2009 directly by medical malpractice and the CDC is just covering that up?

Well, it's clear that it's being covered up. If JAMA is publishing a report that 44,000-98,000 deaths are caused by medical error, and the CDC doesn't even mention deaths by medical error....

Of course, it's not the first time the CDC has covered anything up.

[Dakotacakes]

I need more evidence than mercola and a man quoted iin an article saying that medical error iis PROBABLY the third leading cause of death before I will believe the CDC has a conspircy to cover up it beng the third leading cause of death.

The thing is, they don't need the hyperbole andit actually weakens their argument. Medical errors are a problem One death for error is too many. It is great to focus on ways to improve our medical system. But when we let rhetoric go over the top and indicate it is the third leading casue of death, many people who are not invested in the debate tune out, because it is clear that that isn't true, so why should I listen to the rest of what the article is saying.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by Dakotacakes 

I need more evidence than mercola and a man quoted iin an article saying that medical error iis PROBABLY the third leading cause of death before I will believe the CDC has a conspircy to cover up it beng the third leading cause of death.
 

I provided more evidence for you.  Perhaps you missed it?  Or were you ignoring it?

Here it is again, with more detail, in case you didn't bother to look up the citations in the JAMA article:

http://www.delcotrial.org/media/pdf/000726_jama.pdf

"For example, US estimates of the combined effect of errors and adverse effects that occur because of iatrogenic damage  not associated with recognizable error include

  *   12,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery

  *     7,000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals

  *   20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals

  *   80,000 deaths/year from nosocomial infections in hospitals

  * 106,000 deaths/year from non-error, adverse effects from medications"

The sources for these figures cited by the author (Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH) include:

Leape, L  Unnecessary Surgery.  Annu Rev Public Health. 1992 13:363-383

Phillips D, Christenfeld N, Glynn L  Increase in US medication--error deaths between 1983 and 1993.  Lancet. 1998; 351:643-644

Lazarou J, Pomerantz B, Corey P Incidence of drug reactions in hospitalized patients.  JAMA. 1998; 279: 1200-1205

"In any case, 225,000 deaths per year constitutes the third leading cause of death in the United States, after deaths from heart disease and cancer."

Edited by Taximom5 - 12/13/12 at 11:43am

[Mirzam]

Taxi, you beat me to it, I was coming on to post the Stanfield research.

Here is an interview with Dr Stanfield conducted in 2009 before her death.

Can you offer an opinion about how the FDA can be so mortally wrong about so many drugs?

Yes, it cannot divest itself from vested interests. (Again, [there is] a large literature about this, mostly unrecognized by the people because the industry-supported media give it no attention.

Edited by Mirzam - 12/13/12 at 6:36am

[Rrrrrachel]

Also, it sounds like the CDC is like the WORST EVER at staging a cover up, if the information ended up in jama.

[BeckyBird]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Also, it sounds like the CDC is like the WORST EVER at staging a cover up, if the information ended up in jama.

So, cover up or not, do we agree that medical errors/adverse effects are a leading cause of death in the US?

I agree with this:

Can you offer an opinion about how the FDA can be so mortally wrong about so many drugs?

Yes, it cannot divest itself from vested interests. (Again, [there is] a large literature about this, mostly unrecognized by the people because the industry-supported media give it no attention.

[WildKingdom]

Taxi- your research is 20 years old. Do you have anything more recent?

[MeepyCat]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

I provided more evidence for you.  Perhaps you missed it?  Or were you ignoring it?

Here it is again, with more detail, in case you were too lazy to look up the citations in the JAMA article:

http://www.delcotrial.org/media/pdf/000726_jama.pdf

"For example, US estimates of the combined effect of errors and adverse effects that occur because of iatrogenic damage  not associated with recognizable error include

  *   12,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery

  *     7,000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals

  *   20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals

  *   80,000 deaths/year from nosocomial infections in hospitals

  * 106,000 deaths/year from non-error, adverse effects from medications"

The sources for these figures cited by the author (Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH) include:

Leape, L  Unnecessary Surgery.  Annu Rev Public Health. 1992 13:363-383

Phillips D, Christenfeld N, Glynn L  Increase in US medication--error deaths between 1983 and 1993.  Lancet. 1998; 351:643-644

Lazarou J, Pomerantz B, Corey P Incidence of drug reactions in hospitalized patients.  JAMA. 1998; 279: 1200-1205

"In any case, 225,000 deaths per year constitutes the third leading cause of death in the United States, after deaths from heart disease and cancer."

Okay, but:

- 186,000 of the deaths listed in your total do not result from medical error.  80,000 are from nosocomial infection, and 106,000 are from non-error adverse effects of medications.  That reduces the total of deaths caused by medical error in the years in question from 225,000 to 39,000.

- This data is 14-20 years old.  Has anything changed in the last decade or so? 

I know that, just in the last five years, the hospitals I've been to have introduced new policies aimed at reducing medication errors, patient mis-identification, and errors in which the wrong surgery is performed, or the wrong patient is brought into surgery.  Just last week, my chemo nurse was explaining that they've upped the drug verification procedures, and now the whole process has to be done in front of me, and not at the nurse's station.  Have the rates of death from error remained constant in the face of all this? 

[CatsCradle]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 


Well, it's clear that it's being covered up. If JAMA is publishing a report that 44,000-98,000 deaths are caused by medical error, and the CDC doesn't even mention deaths by medical error....
Of course, it's not the first time the CDC has covered anything up.

I have a less cynical view of the whole thing, mainly because I work in litigation and I'm wondering if the CDC bases its numbers on proven claims (i.e. claims which either have been litigated and judgment entered or claims which have resulted in an insurance award) or just claims in general which have either been made to insurers or claimed in a court of law but have not been resolved or have been disposed of.  My guess is that it requires some kind of verified reporting in order to make the CDC list (i.e. either judgments or reporting by insurers).  A New England Journal of Medicine article discusses claims from a litigation standpoint:

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa054479#t=articleTop

My question would then be:  is the total number of estimated deaths based on initial claims reported either by hospitals or insurers or it is the total number of deaths that have been verified as attributable to medical error?  I think it is a relevant question to ask given the amount of litigation in the U.S and a typical litigation can last up to five years.  Where are the journals getting their estimated numbers - from claims made or when malpractice is either proven or results in an insurance settlement?

[ModerateMom]

I think it's not shocking news that doctors are human beings who make mistakes.  The bottom line for me is that we're all better off with evidence-based science than not, and the thing to strive for is fewer mistakes and more progress with treatments that help people.  Saying that doctors make mistakes so the medical profession is not worthwhile is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, don't you think?

[prosciencemum]

Originally Posted by ModerateMom 

I think it's not shocking news that doctors are human beings who make mistakes.  The bottom line for me is that we're all better off with evidence-based science than not, and the thing to strive for is fewer mistakes and more progress with treatments that help people.  Saying that doctors make mistakes so the medical profession is not worthwhile is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, don't you think?

Yes I do.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

We've got some personal comments calling folks rude, lazy and etc. Please edit. Thanks, ICM 

[Dakotacakes]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

I provided more evidence for you.  Perhaps you missed it?  Or were you ignoring it?

Here it is again, with more detail, in case you were too lazy to look up the citations in the JAMA article:

http://www.delcotrial.org/media/pdf/000726_jama.pdf

"For example, US estimates of the combined effect of errors and adverse effects that occur because of iatrogenic damage  not associated with recognizable error include

  *   12,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery

  *     7,000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals

  *   20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals

  *   80,000 deaths/year from nosocomial infections in hospitals

  * 106,000 deaths/year from non-error, adverse effects from medications"

The sources for these figures cited by the author (Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH) include:

Leape, L  Unnecessary Surgery.  Annu Rev Public Health. 1992 13:363-383

Phillips D, Christenfeld N, Glynn L  Increase in US medication--error deaths between 1983 and 1993.  Lancet. 1998; 351:643-644

Lazarou J, Pomerantz B, Corey P Incidence of drug reactions in hospitalized patients.  JAMA. 1998; 279: 1200-1205

"In any case, 225,000 deaths per year constitutes the third leading cause of death in the United States, after deaths from heart disease and cancer."

No I wasn't ignoring it.  I think part of the problem may be defining "Medical error".  From the list of things on this JAMA article only 39,000 are medical error to me which is no where near the third leading cause of death.  the 80,000 in nosomical infections are not necessarily medical error.  THey are bad, we need to do something about it but it isn't what I would call medical error, as in someone did this and it resulted in a death.  When you have large institutions of people who are ill and potentially infectious diseases spread.  That is why I wanted out of the hospital as soon as possible after delivery, and why I looked for a hospital birth center that is separated from the main hospital.

and 106,000 from non-error, adverse effects from medicaton is also not medical error.  That includes everything from someone having an allergic reaction to medication, to someone over-dosing while abusing their medications, to someone committing suicide, to someone who is doctor shopping and the doctors have no idea that they have another person prescribing meds!  And I think that a very very small percentage of them have anything to do with vaccinations.  Of these 106,000 I am guessing most are related to opiates and Benzos.

And yes 39,000 deaths from medical error is absolutely 39,000 too many and I am all for trying to prevent every single one of them.  But it still doesn't make medical error a third leading cause of death.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by ModerateMom 

I think it's not shocking news that doctors are human beings who make mistakes.  The bottom line for me is that we're all better off with evidence-based science than not, and the thing to strive for is fewer mistakes and more progress with treatments that help people.  Saying that doctors make mistakes so the medical profession is not worthwhile is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, don't you think?

You can believe this and be non-vax.  Just sayin'

[Turquesa]

Originally Posted by Dakotacakes 

I need more evidence than mercola and a man quoted iin an article saying that medical error iis PROBABLY the third leading cause of death before I will believe the CDC has a conspircy to cover up it beng the third leading cause of death.
The thing is, they don't need the hyperbole andit actually weakens their argument. Medical errors are a problem One death for error is too many. It is great to focus on ways to improve our medical system. But when we let rhetoric go over the top and indicate it is the third leading casue of death, many people who are not invested in the debate tune out, because it is clear that that isn't true, so why should I listen to the rest of what the article is saying.

I'm not sure if this was directed at me but...I agree with you about Mercola. I normally skim his articles for the primary sources and check those out...as opposed to reading his hyperbolic spin.

Makary, however, is more than "a man quoted in an article." He *wrote* the WSJ article and is a prominent Johns Hopkins surgeon who spent extensive time compiling government data. He's not a fringy alterna-health type but a whistle-blower within his own profession. I'm happy (and curious) to comb through that data when I'm no longer NAK and busy mommy-ing, but let's at least keep an open mind either way.

If someone would like to beat me to the punch, please go for it. Namely, can anybody, using primary-source data, find exactly where medical error ranks as a cause of death in the US?

FWIW, Makary found that medical error is the 5th or 6th leading cause of death.