Non Violent Communication and parenting - Page 2

[contactmaya]

Originally Posted by Mittsy 

contactmaya: Anger is most definitely a valid emotion in nvc! I'm really curious as to where you heard otherwise. Marshall Rosenberg, the founder of nvc, has said that we should view anger as a "red flag" that there is some trigger, or unmet need, or suppressed feeling coming to the surface that is demanding you give it your attention. He recommends that when we feel angry we should acknowledge it, hit the pause button or take a break, and examine what is going on for us so we can work through it peacefully.

 ot in line with our core values.

 i picked up the idea that anger wasnt considered an authentic emotion  from a workshop i did.  I like how you describe it here. 

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama 

Perhaps not surprising from my posts but I am not known for being especially empathetic. I'm a "do-er" when it comes to showing that I am empathizing with people. There have been times where I have tried to repeat back an emotion a person is feeling and it comes off as really sarcastic. Even if I don't mean it that way, I suppose it's difficult for me to take my judgement out of it. 

I am also starting to get that NVC maybe is something that is active that the person in conflict DOES - rather than something we do to the person in conflict. That makes sense to me. I do tend to try very hard to "own" my feelings, where they're coming from, what they're really about and etc. Obviously we can't do that for another person...I've tried and it doesn't work that well. 

That's funny, IdentityCrisisMama, because I have found your posts to be very empathic and sensitive. You mention that you are a do-er more than an empathizer, and in my life I am the exact opposite - I get a lot of flack for being so caught up in what the other person is feeling that I fail to take the firm action that other people would like to see happen, yet when I post, I come off as not very empathic. Its funny how in our posting lives we seem different from our "real" lives!

Anyway, I think that my experience with NVC in practice has been when two people, or a family, come to NVC to try to rectify conflict within their family system. I especially see it recommended to two parents in the process of divorce, as they try to work out parenting plans and deal with their anger and blame towards to each other. NVC is often something that was recommended to them from an outside source like a counselor. Or a parent who feels that the connection with their child is filled with hostility and distrust,and they want to be more connected. I guess since that is the majority of people I see trying to use NVC aren't doing it primarily for self-improvement, but as a means to heal a conflict between people, there is a lot more of "hey, she isn't following NVC and I am! She's not doing it right! She's supposed to be giving me empathy right now and that wasn't empathy!" or "Well I tried to connect with my 3-year-old using NVC and he still hit me! He's not supposed to do that; he's supposed to be relieved that I'm listening to him and respond with "okay, mama, I understand!"

 I really find NVC useful in learning to look at what needs my feelings might be reacting to. I love that my DD is starting to use "NVC" language herself.

Edited by BellinghamCrunchie - 12/9/12 at 4:11pm

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie 

That's funny, IdentityCrisisMama, because I have found your posts to be very empathic and sensitive. 

[Asiago]

This so ironic, I just started reading the book two nights ago, and here is a topic thread.

[lalemma]

"Well I tried to connect with my 3-year-old using NVC and he still hit me! He's not supposed to do that; he's supposed to be relieved that I'm listening to him and respond with "okay, mama, I understand!"
 

Our instructor had to argue with us at length about how this is not going to happen.

So I am totally not doing 100% Pure Authentic NVC, but one thing I have found so useful and interesting about this type of communication is that I feel much, much less responsible for how other people feel than I used to. I used to have a lot of anxiety about other peoples' negative feelings, and conflict, in large part I think because I somehow felt like it was my job to fix their negative feelings.

And now I feel more like "Wow! You are feeling really upset that I said that it's time for us to leave the park. I can really see how angry and disappointed you are. You wanted to keep playing. Yeah. That's hard." but I don't feel like I need to solve his problem. The problem is our collective thing to come up with solutions for - maybe we can work out a way to stay for five more minutes, maybe not. But I am not responsible for his feelings, and that, weirdly, has really freed me up to feel and express more compassion.

Along the way I started to see the value in having a parent (or another person, friend) be a good gauge for one's feelings. I know you say that feelings are never out of perspective and I suppose I'm still having a hard time with that. But, isn't acting neutral towards feelings taking away the feedback system for gauging feelings? I feel like this feedback system is really helpful, not only for children but for all of us.

Can you elaborate on this? Are you talking about a time when someone has big feelings that aren't really about that moment, but about being tired/hungry/hormonal/etc? If so, when my child is very tired, he sometimes has mini-meltdowns at bedtime. At that time, I briefly empathize with him, but I definitely don't get into a big thing with him about his emotions, because I think they are not due to a big thing that needs to be dealt with, but just because he's tired. So it looks more like "I hear that you're upset. But you know, sometimes when I'm very tired, I get very upset. So I think this is a signal that your body is ready for sleep now."

I feel like this is contextual. I definitely try to take feelings about interpersonal stuff seriously, but if I think that the particular feeling is more about feeling exhausted or hungry, I try to move through it quickly. (I do this with myself, too.) With that said, I still take seriously the fact that the child is feeling that emotion. I don't try to make it bad or shameful or talk him out of it - "You are not really feeling this!".  But I don't sit down and process for 45 minutes, either.

(I have seen other people actually process and process and process with what looks to me like a kid who is freaking out because she's hungry, and I am not sure I think that's always helpful to the child, but I'm not in their shoes.)

I love that my DD is starting to use "NVC" language herself.

My son does this, too. I think it's kind of cool. I mean, he is still three years old, he isn't Gandhi. But it is interesting to negotiate with him. Interesting, and sometimes exhausting! I frequently feel hoist by my own petard.

Anyway, I'm glad to see this thread here! Sometimes when I talk about this type of communication, I feel like it sounds a little bit like I'm in a cult! Which is mildly funny to me, because I am just not a joiner.

[Mittsy]

BellinghamCrunchie: I haven't come across that in the nvc groups I'm a part of, so I'm not really sure what to say. I will admit after I have been empathizing with someone for a while I will check in with them to see if they are needing more empathy, emotional space to just vent and nothing else, or advice. If it seems to be a ongoing issue I have no problem mentioning to them gently that I think I have given them all I could at the moment and they may benefit from digging in to this issue on their own. Personally, I don't think it benefits anyone to always stuff their emotions in favor of somebody else's.

As far as PMS goes, empathy doesn't help me either. I have found that I need copious amounts of alone time, time to go inward and do self work, declare a stay at home and do nothing week.... This is what gets me through.

Part of what many people find so hard about nvc is the "formula", it feels unrealistic to do in everyday life I'll admit it. What I have learned though is that you don't always need to go through the whole "I'm seeing x and feeling y about this because I'm needing z. Would you be willing to help me by doing c...." I've let go of the "formula", and just follow the basic rules, and it's become a lot easier for me!

IdentityCrisisMama:

Ex1

I would say it depends on the relationship you have with the person. If I have a close relationship with the person I have no issue saying "I feel I've given all I could at this moment may'be you would benefit from digging in to this issue on your own...." If you don't have a good relationship with the person, or you're not feeling confident I would let them vent about the issue, giving empathy if wanted, and then use the "pass the bean dip method".

Ex2

It sounds like you were pretty worn out in that situation. It sounds to me like may'be creating some more time in your schedule for yourself would help you respond more authentically to others on a consistent basis.

About the anger, I believe I remember now what you're referring to. I believe somewhere in nvc they state that anger is a mental state you experience when another need is going unmet, and to view it as a red flag to go check in with yourself. Thank you for that prompt!

Doing nvc is a personal choice I've found. You can use nvc in all situations, but there is no guarantee the other person will want to participate, or even like it, but I think it's important to respect where they are right now even if that means they think this is nuts.

I don't think you have to be neutral all the time about things, in fact that would not be acting out of honesty and authenticity to ourselves to do so. I feel the feedback system is important for everyone too.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by lalemma 

Can you elaborate on this?  

I'm thinking more about when we need folks close to us to react to our feelings so we can get some more perspective on how serious things are. For instance, I will often run things by my DC or my mom or a close friend to get a feeling for how they respond to how strongly I feel about this or that. Sometimes, I get the feeling that they can't even relate to why I have gotten myself worked up. Other times the are more shocked or upset than I am. I think this kind of feedback is really helpful. I think it's helpful for my DC.  

And I suppose I am having trouble letting go of feeling like (especially in a situation like example #2) that some feedback that someone's feelings may be  out of balance, out of perspective may be a good thing. 

All of that said, I think I, too, feel a lot of pressure about other people's feelings. I'm really intrigued by the fact that NVC has allowed you to loosen up in that way. 

[BellinghamCrunchie]

One of the biggest problems I have using NVC is in working with or just interacting with people with personality disorders. I know Marshall doesn't like labels, but for me a label sometimes helps me organize my thoughts, and among my colleagues I only have to say "borderline" and they immediately draw an accurate mental picture of the person I am talking about, so its useful as a kind of shorthand to describe a cluster of traits. Anyway, there is one person in particular in my NVC group who comes to the group for help with the "horrible, disrespectful, and abusive way" he is treated in all areas of his life. When he relays conversations in which he was supposedly the victim, it seems very clear that he was extremely abusive to another person first and that the other person was simply trying to withdraw as fast as they could. I have a great deal of trouble being empathic to him, and listening over and over and over to yet another victimization story, with no signs of self-awareness increasing or any ability to have any degree of empathy for another person. I get so frustrated that NVC doesn't seem to be having any kind of impact; instead, its providing him with a sounding board for his litany of complaints. And it seems that every time he gets empathy and validation, he re-affirms to himself that its others, not him, that are the problem, and his status as chronic victim is re-affirmed in his mind.

How do you use NVC when you are interacting with people who have interpersonal difficulties like this?

[luckiest]

This has been really interesting for me to read!!  I hadn't heard of NVC before this thread, and it sounds like something I could really benefit from.  I'm a big-time conflict avoider, terrible at voicing my grievances, preferring to just simmer and then let it pass (which it does; I'm not a bottle-up-and-explode person).  I know that the biggest reason for this is childhood trauma, fear of abandonment, and always having the underlying fear that conflict, however minor, will result in the termination of that relationship.  I feel like breaking it down into a formula would be really helpful for me, since I freeze up and am totally out of touch with my own feelings in the midst of a conflict.  

DS is too young to converse with, but I bet this would be great for DH and me!  Does anyone have any further-reading links/blog posts/online articles I can look at before buying a book? 

[IdentityCrisisMama]

L, a few posts up Mittsy posted a link to a NVC feelings list from what seemed to be an Aussie NVC group. That site had a lot of links and articles, it seemed. 

So happy that this thread and these philosophical discussions are bringing up new ideas for folks!  

I truly believe that some of the more radical GD philosophies are really important to flexing our GD muscle, so to speak. Even if a philosophy ends up not resonating well, I think it's good to learn about. I'm not sure how well NVC is resonating with me (I want to read an article or two, myself) but already I'm taking away this idea that we need not feel so responsible for other people's feelings...something I plan to think about the next time I'm faced with a really emotional situation. 

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I want to thank Mittsy for starting this thread! I don't know about all of you but I feel like I learned a lot and as someone who really loves the GD forum and the variety of perspectives one can get here - I LOVE That we are paying attention to some of the less mainstream perspectives that fall under the GD umbrella. 

Is there anyone on this thread or the study threads that is willing/able to start a thread on another philosophy? I know a few folks said maybe they could do TCS or UP...

[Mittsy]

I have been meaning to start a thread on CL. I will work on that later today if I can.

It might be a good idea if someone would be willing to cover the differences between UP and CL, or CL and TCS.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

 

Thanks, Mittsy. You're awesome!  Maybe if we don't have anyone who can do a quick run-down, we could do it together and link these threads once we've covered NVC, UP, CL and TCS?  

I want to do one on the issue of positive expectations (CC) and will start some research for that for after your CL thread. I need to find some articles to include because some of this may be just a evolved philosophy of mine but (to me) the concept of expectations has been one of those lightbulb parenting discoveries. 

Maybe after you do CL we could do another study thread and even try to apply "mainstream GD", CL and NVC - I think that would help highlight some of the strengths of the different philosophies. 

[erigeron]

I'd like a 101 post, with either a one-sentence description of what all these initials stand for, or links to threads where they are explained in more detail. Seriously lost over here (been reading but not commenting).

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Erigeron - the first thread on this theme has that (acronym) -- I just bumped it...

[IdentityCrisisMama]

• (UP) Unconditional Parenting 
• TCS (Taking Children Seriously
• CC (Continuum Concept) 
• PET (Parent Effectiveness Training)
• NVC (Non-Violent Communication)
• CL (Consensual Living)  
• Positive expectations 

From here we can expand on this list, include the links to the themes we've covered along with off-site links to articles and websites. If anyone feels able to write a 101 short description - awesome OR we could pull that from official sources. 

[luckiest]

I just started a UP thread:

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1371499/unconditional-parenting-primer-and-discussion-thread

It's long winded, I tried to be brief though!