Need practical advice on setting up a fixed bed time

[Amy@STL]

My son is 2.5 yrs old and the biggest challenge in my parenting journey has been getting him to sleep. "Nap/ bedtime routine" doesn't work for us. As in: a sequence of predictable events doesnt help him fall asleep on a predictable time table. I have tried for several weeks, during different phases of his life. The problem is if he is not tired, it simply doesnt work. And on somedays he is tired by 9 pm, other days 11 pm. And if he naps late( which occurs most often) he is up past midnight. He is not cranky during these late nights. As I said, as soon as he is truly tired, I dont have miuch problem with getting him to sleep. And even though a bedtime routine doesnt work, but we still have one. After dinner, some play, change of clothes, The last hour of our day is spent in quiet activity like books, or listening to soothing songs while lounging etc. Lights are turned off, we go upstairs to bed, and lie together and ( ideally) drift off to sleep. There have been several nights when he has laid awake with me in a dark, quiet room for 1.5-2 hours. I am not kidding! the child obviously is not fighting sleep but is truly not sleepy.
Going out and spending an active morning doesnt always translate into a nap. And I cant run around( physically) for hours everyday. He is by nature a laid back child, one of the calmest toddler. He can watch a ladybug for half hour easily. But he is healthy, active ( when he has a playmate) and happy.

I really want to set up a sleep schedule. I have spent huge amount of time on this challenge and so far not succeeded.
He is a sound sleeper, been sleeping through the night since 9 months. The challenge is to get him to sleep. Please I need tried and tested suggestions!

[MomInTheMitten]

I just lost a long iphone response I was was working on. In summary though, do you feel that your son could be ready to drop his nap? My oldest was a little older when he stopped napping but when he did, it allowed us to reset our evenings from late and unpredictable bedtimes to eating dinner at five, going up to bed (for bath, stories, goodnights) at six, and leaving him to sleep in his room at seven (while listening to a music or story CD, which gives him something very passive to do if he's not ready to sleep right away). I sympathize with you, though, sleep is just tricky.

[Amy@STL]

Oh how I hate those iphones when that happens:) I am gingerly typing on my ipad now:)

I went down that route as well. He went three weeks with no nap and at first it was heaven but slowly he started turning into a child I couldnt identify at all. Brought back naps and he is backmto normal. I dont force naps anymore though. I try to listen to his body as he clearly still needs them. I would have not worried much if life before this nap-skipping phase was predictable. But it wasnt. He has always, from infancy been very irregular about his sleep.

[katelove]

Does he still need the daytime sleep? I was just wondering if the later time and the subsequent later bedtime mean he may be ready to drop sleeping during the day.

Other than that my first suggestion was going to be activity but it sounds like that isn't likely to help much.

If you think he does still need the day sleep then I'd probably try waking him after an hour if he goes down early and missing it altogether on the days that it would be late. Routine doesn't make my toddler sleepy either so we make sure she gets plenty of physical activity and limit her day sleep to an hour unless she goes down before 10:30am. Otherwise she is up late but doesn't sleep in the next morning and we get into a bit of a vicious cycle of tiredness.

[Amy@STL]

He regularly misses naps. However, that still doesnt develop a consistent bedtime. For example, today he got up at 9 am and skipped nap. He almost fell asleep at 7:15 pm( he was tired) but woke up in 2 mins and then finally slept at 11 pm.

He still needs naps for sure. Some weeks he will nap everyday, other weeks not. Also, how " long " he naps has no effect at all. Cutting nap short was the furst thing I had tried and it has zero bearing. If he naps, he wont go down for next 7-8 hrs at the least.

[sewchris2642]

How much total sleeping time does he get in a 24 hour period?  It sounds like to me you need to start with when he gets up in the morning.  Decide when he needs to be up in the morning, count backwards the amount of time he usually sleeps at night.  That's when he needs to go to bed.  Then add in any additional amount of time for a nap to bring up his sleep time to what he needs.  If he normally gets up around 9:30 am then his nap will probably be about 5 hours after that, around 2-3 pm.  If he takes an 1-2 hour nap, waking up by 4 pm, he won't be ready for bed before 9-10 pm.  If you want him to go to bed earlier than that, you can try to reset his clock by getting him up earlier in the morning and do it consistently over time--weeks if not months.  Or just go with it and adjust your day to match his which is what I did. 
 

[Amy@STL]

On average he gets 11.5 hrs. If he doesnt nap, he makes up for it at night. In theory what you say is exactly what I feel should work. But what happens instead is, he doesnt go to bed earlier and if I keep waking him up earlier, in just 48 hours he falls apart. And if I keep at it, instead of falling in a routine, things go crazy.
But yes, I totally see the logic in what you say and thats whay I am frustated as to why it doesnt work:(
Currently we dont have any problems following his natural body clock but I want him to join a home daycare for few hours and with our current timing, he wakes up too late to make it work.

[Amy@STL]

Also, currently he wakes up around 9 ( 8:30-9:30) and doesnt go down for nap till 4 pm. Even if I shift it to 7 am wake up time, he would still be napping too late at 2 pm. He also always has been a very sound deep sleeper. Never does short naps. And omce he sleeps more than 1.5 hrs, he cant see, to go down for next 7 hrs. My problem is " gaps " between each sleep period is too long. And unfortunately he still needs naps:(
Maybe I am just doomed with this till he comfortably grows out of naps all together.

[sewchris2642]

Could be.  Dylan's schedule was up at 8 am, nap at daycare/home around 12:30-1 pm; up around 3:30 (there were days that the provider had to wake him up for afternoon snack); bedtime was at 10 pm.  He had his bath around 7 pm after dinner and got a last story at bedtime.  It worked for us since I didn't have to be at work until 10 am.  Dylan ate breakfast at home and was at daycare in time for morning snack.  But then the home daycare I used didn't have set times that the kids had to be there.  Those kids who were there at 8 o'clock got breakfast.  Morning snack was at 9:30, lunch at noon, nap time 12:30-1:00 (they had to lay down for quiet time if they didn't actually nap); afternoon snack around 3:30.  Some kids were there as early as 7:30.  Others got there at lunch time.  Some went home after lunch and others not until 5:30.  But the preschool activities mostly occur ed in the morning between breakfast and morning snack before they went out to play.  When they couldn't go outside, they had preschool activities scattered throughout the day.

When Dylan started 1st grade, I moved his bedtime up to 8 pm since he was no longer napping (stopped half way through Kindergarten; very frustrating since he had afternoon Kindergarten and didn't get home until after 3 so he was napping from 4 to 5:30).  He had to be up by 7 as school started at 8 and we walked.  But by the time he was in 3rd grade, his bedtime was at 9.  In 4th grade, it got moved to 10 and he was still getting up at 7.  Now, at almost 15 and doing home schooling, he still goes to bed at 10 and gets up at 7.
 

[southcarolina]

Basically sleep is like food, if a child is overfeed then a child won't have apteite.

So, the easiest way to get some sanity is to be consistent with waking him up a bit earlier

then he would like and this way you will get him in bed earlier. Otherwise if he gets

all he wants then we gets his way and you go crazy.

My kid never wanted to go to bed... we realized that we can't put a child to bed... but

we could regulate moring and nap time sleep amount.

So we would see what time we needed to wake up our kid in order to have him ready for nap at 1.. and how

much nap would be enough not to cause long hours up..

so that is the way we could get somwhere eventually .. by maniuplating the wake up time not the go to sleep time..

 hope this helps.

[Parker'smommy]

But, if he napped @ 2 pm, instead of 4 pm, it would still gain you a 2 hour earlier bedtime, right?

[Amy@STL]

Parker's mommy , it doesn't work out that way for him. Almost seems if he falls asleep like anytime after 12 pm is too late and he will stay up past 10 easily.

[Amy@STL]

Southcarolina, I think I have lot of hesitation about waking a sleeping child your suggestion is the only thing I haven't done consistently because my child gets SO miserable if he is woken up. And something just seems wrong to me to wake him up every time. But you may be very right. He sleeps to his natural rhythm and while that makes him very happy and rested it seems I can't keep to any schedule.
So now I am torn between keeping our happy smoothly flowing life but with no set timings OR start torturing me ( because this kid will be grumpy for hours if you wake him) to try to create a stricter routine .
Phew.

[Amy@STL]

That was ver

Originally Posted by sewchris2642 

Could be.  Dylan's schedule was up at 8 am, nap at daycare/home around 12:30-1 pm; up around 3:30 (there were days that the provider had to wake him up for afternoon snack); bedtime was at 10 pm.  He had his bath around 7 pm after dinner and got a last story at bedtime.  It worked for us since I didn't have to be at work until 10 am.  Dylan ate breakfast at home and was at daycare in time for morning snack.  But then the home daycare I used didn't have set times that the kids had to be there.  Those kids who were there at 8 o'clock got breakfast.  Morning snack was at 9:30, lunch at noon, nap time 12:30-1:00 (they had to lay down for quiet time if they didn't actually nap); afternoon snack around 3:30.  Some kids were there as early as 7:30.  Others got there at lunch time.  Some went home after lunch and others not until 5:30.  But the preschool activities mostly occur ed in the morning between breakfast and morning snack before they went out to play.  When they couldn't go outside, they had preschool activities scattered throughout the day.

When Dylan started 1st grade, I moved his bedtime up to 8 pm since he was no longer napping (stopped half way through Kindergarten; very frustrating since he had afternoon Kindergarten and didn't get home until after 3 so he was napping from 4 to 5:30).  He had to be up by 7 as school started at 8 and we walked.  But by the time he was in 3rd grade, his bedtime was at 9.  In 4th grade, it got moved to 10 and he was still getting up at 7.  Now, at almost 15 and doing home schooling, he still goes to bed at 10 and gets up at 7.

 

That was super helpful to know. Though your son's schedule seems out of question to me right now, it does give me an idea of sleep pattern over the years. Its amazing though that you remember it after so many years!

[goldingoddess]

The way I see it is that you can either start waking him up earlier in the morning, or not allowing a nap and setting your day up to make that possible. 

[P.J.]

Originally Posted by Amy@STL 

Southcarolina, I think I have lot of hesitation about waking a sleeping child your suggestion is the only thing I haven't done consistently because my child gets SO miserable if he is woken up. And something just seems wrong to me to wake him up every time. But you may be very right. He sleeps to his natural rhythm and while that makes him very happy and rested it seems I can't keep to any schedule.
So now I am torn between keeping our happy smoothly flowing life but with no set timings OR start torturing me ( because this kid will be grumpy for hours if you wake him) to try to create a stricter routine .
Phew.

I totally get this. We are in a similar predicament with our 2 1/2 year old. I *hate* waking him up in the morning. He isn't always grumpy (but most of the time)....but I know what you mean it just seems wrong to wake a child up. Anyway we have to b/c he goes to preschool and has to be there at 9 and for our morning to flow smoothly that means 7:30 wake up time. He usually goes to bed at 9:30-10:30 and would not wake up naturally til around 9. I sometimes think he should be waking up more like 6 to get to bed by 8....he doesn't seem to need that much sleep because even with consistent 7:30 wake up he never goes down before 9:30.

Anyway, you seem to be content with your routine, you say you are happy and what seems like the only reasonable path out of this (waking him earlier in the morning) is not something you want to do. But then you say you want him in daycare soon. Is the daycare flexible with drop-off time? Because if not then you're going to have to start waking him in any case. At the very latest in a few short years (unless you're planning to homeschool) he'll have to start getting up early for school, so you might as well rip the band-aid off and just fall into that pattern now. Also what's the nap situation at daycare? Maybe they can help him fall into a pattern of sleeping earlier as most daycares have naps around 12:30-1.

If your daycare has flexible drop off times then why do you want to change anything? Just leave it. If your daycare has a fixed and earlier drop off time then you are going to have to get used to waking him early. Hopefully he will start going to bed earlier and it will get better and only be some weeks that he is so grumpy and difficult about it. If you absolutely cannot bear to wake him up and are fixed on having a 100% natural body-rhythm sleep schedule, then you need to find a different daycare and / or plan to home school. I know how much it sucks, trust me I do. If I were able to I'd wake up my boy hours earlier because like I said he *still* goes down late even waking at 7:30.....but I don;t have the nerve. Unfortunately earlier wake up time can really make a difference here though. Best of luck!

[sewchris2642]

I remember in part because that is still our schedule now even though he is a homeschooling teen and I work at home.  We both still go to bed at 10.  I still get up at 6 and he gets up at 7.  In fact, that's been my preferred schedule for the past almost 50 years since I became a teen.  And I hear you on not waking a sleeping child.  We never woke Erica up if it could be avoided.
 

[transylvania_mom]

I would definitely not let him nap at 4.

When my dk were dropping their naps they were ready to go to bed at 7pm.

If you see he wants to fall asleep at 4, try to keep him awake until 6 at least, then put him to bed for the night. Be prepared that he will wake up at 5 in the morning though. Then you can gradually move his bedtime to 7.
 

So now I am torn between keeping our happy smoothly flowing life but with no set timings OR start torturing me ( because this kid will be grumpy for hours if you wake him) to try to create a stricter routine .

You don't *need* to create a "strict" routine if you are happy with his sleep. If your schedule works for both of you, then why change it?

[ellen109]

I think a schedule would help his body get on a natural rhythm and would make things easier for him.  When I wake up at varying times each day and go to bed at varying times, I feel a little out of sorts and have a lot more trouble getting up/falling asleep.  I would set a schedule that you think matches what he needs and follow it strictly for a week and then evaluate how things are going.  Some children thrive on a set schedule, my son would be a mess without it.  Set a morning wakeup time, nap start and nap end  and bedtime (try to match the nap length to  sleep cycle lengths so if you have to wake him, you do it at the end of a cycle.  They typically are 40 minutes and they'll often stir at the end of a cycle, sometimes getting up and sometimes going back to sleep.  waking at 30 minutes or 50 minutes on the dot is a sign of overtiredness.)  

Based on the average sleep needs for that age, I'd try for waking at 8am, nap at 1 pm for 1hr & 10 min and bedtime at 8pm.  It won't go well for the first few days, until his body gets used to it.  One easy way that I used to get my son used to a set nap time was to take him for a drive at that time every day.  Then once their bodies adjust to the schedule, they will make a few tweaks based on their needs.  If you notice him getting sleepier earlier than 8pm, he needs an earlier bedtime.  But, you can really on successfully move a set schedule by about 15 minutes a night.  So make changes once you are on a good schedule gradually.

Oh and the falling asleep for 2 minutes thing and then waking up, might be a sign of being overtired.  When kids get overtired, they have a horrible time falling asleep and the inability to stay asleep is a classic sign.

I honestly believe that schedules are not the enemy as some may think.  They help a child's natural circadian rhythm find balance and without them I think the child's body is constantly trying to find a rhythm, but can't because we allow other parts of the schedule to be inconsistent.  

[marsupial-mom]

Originally Posted by transylvania_mom 

You don't *need* to create a "strict" routine if you are happy with his sleep. If your schedule works for both of you, then why change it?

I agree with this.

A few more thoughts regarding the OP... You said that you can't physically stay active every morning. My son is much more active than I am and so I literally can't keep up but I know he needs the activity (if he doesn't get AM activity he will not nap and then he's grumpy). So... I have some tricks that might work for you too. We go to places where he can play and doesn't need me to play with him: indoor/ enclosed play areas, bounce houses and trampolines, play with the dog, ride bike or scooter in loops in park, swimming (I'm just in the pool nearby, not swimming myself), soccer/ gym class, etc. Maybe something like that can work for you?