"I hate school"

[momyarb]

My KINDERGARTNER said this today. To tell you the truth, I didn't expect this until a few more years have gone by. I think I mentioned this in another post, but he has to be in his own work stations by himself because no one reads at his level close enough to be with him. He LOVES being around kids -which was his motivation for attending school. We homeschooled before (yes, he's 5 but I did provide a lot of educational support/encouragement throughout the years). I also believe he's bored. He's like his dad. When my husband was in school, he was also extremely bored. He knew all of the material being taught already (all the way through high school) and so he entertained himself. Usually in ways that were not appreciated by teachers. From what I hear from my child, he is starting to do the same. Some of the things he does is copying other children. 

He came home today and said he got a three (out of four on his behavior chart -this is his second three this week!) and said he hated school. He told me he doesn't know why he does things. He also mentioned he hates doing things because he does bad things (and doesn't know why). My husband suggested potentially ADHD. He self-diagnosed himself as ADHD as a child. I'm not sure I fully support the idea of an attention deficit, but I do acknowledge the impulsiveness portion is present.

I'm not even sure this is an issue of giftedness so maybe this isn't the place to post this. I just needed to vent and thought perhaps someone (anyone!) has gone through this before. 

[Geofizz]

What kind of relationship do you have with the teacher?  I have had good luck opening a discussion with the teacher by reporting what my child says to me.  The email would go something like:

"Dear Teacher,

DS reported to me that he hates school.  He told me he doesn't know why he does things.  He also mentioned he hates doing things because he does bad things and doesn't know why.

This seems new, and I noted that his behavior chart has been at 3 twice this week.  Can you give me some insight on what is going on in the classroom, and what might have changed this week?

I'm available to talk {times and days} this week,

Cheers,

momyarb"

Honestly, what you describe sounds like impulse control.  Not knowing why you do the wrong thing, and being unable to control it is a hallmark for ADHD.  It's also a hallmark for immaturity.  All of this is exacerbated by boredom.  When you have a more detailed conversation about why he's getting in trouble, then you can ask the teacher to pinpoint what's been happening in the classroom when he gets in trouble.  If it's during a time when a fluent reader is being asked to practice recognizing the letter 'm', then you bring up the concern of whether or not the material is appropriately engaging.

[momyarb]

Thank you so much! I actually plan on copying your suggested wording and emailing her in just a few minutes. I suspected ADHD, or considered the possibility, before he started school. The beginning of school was great, but after the first month or so, he got his first 3. I'm already battling the librarian to get him on the Accelerated Reader Program (recommended by his teacher). Tomorrow I will ask her the last time before going to the principal. I was told the school usually does not do it for Kindergarten, however, they have the program for all the other grades. I can't imagine adding another child would be too difficult or different just because of the grade level. 

Anyway, thank you again for your advice!!!

[southcarolina]

You realize how the kindergarten day looks like right?.. just to recap:

• kids do start school at 9ish and end at 3:30ish.. that is solid 6.5 hours.. take away half hour for lunch.. take away half hour for recess you still got 5 hours of sitting still!!!! at this desk or the other, regardless.. it is sitting still non the less and you can get in trouble or in his case on 3 out of 4 for no apparent reason as in .. turn around to ask a friend about something and he will be spoted by the teacher and voila! comes his 3.
• you realize that the 0.5 hour recess is all they get socializing wise? the lunch time is usually policed by one or two adults that basically yell every few minutes to be quiet, put the fingers on the mouth and not to talk and do eat eat eat.. they basically can not socialize freely becasue at this age means raising voices and so that is punished immediately..
• you know that they have BLOCKS of subjects.. usually 2 hour block of reading, writing, art, science.. language arts.. this type of things.. that means that an average 5 year old child has to maintain focus and concentration on ONE subject for 2 hours while the whole civilized world for ages had a 45 minute blocks of subject interlaced nicely with 10 minutes breaks that meant goigng outside, relaxing, socializing, getting resh air.. that type of thing..
• of course you know that they get boared because the teacher oftentimes do sits at the desk, replies to parents emails, organizes her work and chats online or what not.. while kids are tons of time left to their own devices and the only rule is don't move or you get in trouble..
• techers do love to plant kids at the centers to do focused stuff.. kids get boared out of their mind as at this age self study is not exactly that easy on a child, children in ohter countries enjoy teacher lead learning and they are talk to, interacted to and this is not happening at your kindergarten if you don't know.
• Kindergarten is NOT what it used to be. it is NOT play based, it is pure academics.. pushed pushed pushed..
• Oftentimes kids do not have any additional snack breaks aside from lunch that means long strach on low sugar.. or hugnry.

Having said that, ask sometimes to volounteer to be a class parent and do put yourself in the position of a lively 5 year old boy that still loves to move around and play and he can't do it when he is designed to do it and when he gets out of shcool he is too tired and too

overstimulated to even want to do anything..

I have spent few days helping in the classroom quietly doing my job observing kids learning teachers teaching and suffering the long boaring day. I don't have HDAD but I was so boared to death and the kids were so tired looking all of them that I was just amazed

how it can function that kids put up with this thing.

I think that considered that a young human was designed to roam freely at this tender age and basically learn by imitation for a million years and now that little thing is forced to seat still for hours at no end..  it is a miracle so many kids did not go nuts in the process..

You are wondering why he said he "hates school" I would be surprised if he loved it. The system simply is not child friendly nor child centered. It does not take into consideration child's needs for movement, for freedom, for play for breaks for socializing, for interaction for all that curiousity stuff..

So whats to love? I would say his reaction is as smart as he is himself. he is just smart kid and he has made an acurate assasement.

You can't and should not judge his assasement untill you spent a day in his shoes. Do ask if you can observe a class day once.. then form your opinion about the system not about a child.

Now and not to judge you because it is not a fault.. you might somewhat contributed to his misery. I know the urge to send a kid

to school well prepared.. overprepared.. that sounds like a great idea at first but you see how quickly it backfires. I red enough of that not to do that. I focused on developing smarts, general sensitivity to stuff.. curiousity for learning, exploring .. etc.. we worked on basic skills but I was careful not to overdo it, I myself was a kid who knew too much.. just like a good movie title "a kid who knew too much" hahaha.. so I used to be boared, I counted the lamps, the floor planks,the students, the paint flaws on the wall, I watched for hours

other kids patterns on their sweters as I usually knew too much and I had too much time and not to know what to do with it.

I would say that you should take him out and homeschool for another year. At first grade things get hairy, it gets very difficult very fast as kids have to learn new things in a short period of time and they throw that at them so quickly that it just gets them busy to

try to stay on the top. Kindergarten is a catch up time for all but first grade they march all right.. he would also have a year more

or half year to be exact to roam free, to enjoy his childhood.. and you could level with him and let him forget a bit...

and so he would have a better start :)

Do as you wish but frankly kindergarten is truly difficult on children and the age of 5 is year or two earlier then most of the world does.. so there is this conflict between a mind, a body and a need..

[KCMichigan]

Originally Posted by Geofizz 

What kind of relationship do you have with the teacher?  I have had good luck opening a discussion with the teacher by reporting what my child says to me.  The email would go something like:

"Dear Teacher,

DS reported to me that he hates school.  He told me he doesn't know why he does things.  He also mentioned he hates doing things because he does bad things and doesn't know why.

This seems new, and I noted that his behavior chart has been at 3 twice this week.  Can you give me some insight on what is going on in the classroom, and what might have changed this week?

I'm available to talk {times and days} this week,

Cheers,

momyarb"

Honestly, what you describe sounds like impulse control.  Not knowing why you do the wrong thing, and being unable to control it is a hallmark for ADHD.  It's also a hallmark for immaturity.  All of this is exacerbated by boredom.  When you have a more detailed conversation about why he's getting in trouble, then you can ask the teacher to pinpoint what's been happening in the classroom when he gets in trouble.  If it's during a time when a fluent reader is being asked to practice recognizing the letter 'm', then you bring up the concern of whether or not the material is appropriately engaging.

I agree with the above.

But also---- how old is he, is he impulsive for a 5 year old. Most 5 year olds are impulsive by nature, but it is the frequency and intensity of the impulsivity that would make it a red-flag. If he was MORE frequently impulsive and MORE intensely impacted by impulsivity than I would look into it. If he is impulsive, but not out of the realm of 'standard' for a 5 yr old then I would see if it improves with age.

Is he lonely?   Is he getting work at his level?   

Have you met with the teacher? Has she attempted to intervene if he seems unhappy? Does she have work for him with other students?

In K- usually there is another reader or two (reading fluently) that he could pair up with . They may not all be on the 'same' reading level, but they could do theme, characterization, and study the same topics at slightly differing levels once a few kids are fluent.

Originally Posted by momyarb 

  I'm already battling the librarian to get him on the Accelerated Reader Program (recommended by his teacher).

OHHHHHHH! This makes me mad!!

We are lucky that our librarian allowed my DDS to check out books from the ' 2nd grade + ' section when they were 5. They simply needed to show her what they could do and she was OK with it.

Childrens Books are for ALL children--- not ages.  That just makes me angry since I work really hard to impress to my 7 yr olds that in the childrens library that the picture books are  for anyone (not just young children), chapter books are for anyone (not just old children)...books are for enjoying, no matter how well you read, who reads to you, or what kind of book it is.

If your DS is close to the cut-off age : is a multigrade/age classroom a better option, could be accelerate for Reading/Math?

Good Luck and I hope you get some resolution soon!!

[Geofizz]

I'd mention the AR problem with the librarian in the same phone conversation. School staff respond best to other school staff. If this permissions came from the teacher, it's reasonable to ask the teacher for follow through.

Never understood restrictions on library materials. If it's too hard for the child to read, what a great way to let a child pick out something for a parent to read with them! I'm thankful that's not a problem we've encountered ourselves.

I would suspect that the impulsivity is not out of line with other kindergarteners, or you wouldn't have had perfect behavior reports until now, but it could also be that the teacher has ramped up expectations.

[emilysmama]

Originally Posted by momyarb 

I'm already battling the librarian to get him on the Accelerated Reader Program (recommended by his teacher). Tomorrow I will ask her the last time before going to the principal. I was told the school usually does not do it for Kindergarten, however, they have the program for all the other grades. I can't imagine adding another child would be too difficult or different just because of the grade level. 

The issue might be cost, not grade level. 

When my dd was in Kindergarten, there were several children, including my dd, who were strong enough readers to start AR in Kindergarten.  Apparently in previous years, Kindergarteners didn't do AR, but that year some of the strongest readers in Kindergarten  did.  There was a delay in starting those Kindergarten children with AR because the school had to figure out how to pay for the additional cost of the Kindergarteners.  Now, that was three years ago, so my memory is fuzzy, but I think that the additional cost was rather substantial, even though only a few KIndergarteners actually did AR.  I think that perhaps the school had to pay for the cost of all of the children in all three Kindergarten classes, even though most of the Kindergarteners were not ready for AR. I don't think the school had the option of paying just for those  Kindergarteners who were ready for AR.  It took a little while for the school to find the funds to pay for the unexpected expense.  The school was fortunate because the funds for AR were paid for by the PTA, who happened to have enough money to cover the extra cost.  If your school is strapped for resources, as many schools are, the money may not be there.

Honestly, I think that AR is way overrated, especially in Kindergarten. In my opinion, AR during Kindergarten is not worth battling with the librarian because I don't think it will engage a child any more than the child already is.  Among my dd's Kindergarten's friends, eligibility to do AR was more of a status symbol, rather than a challenging activity. In my experience, you would get far better results by simply convincing your child's teacher to make more challenging books available to your son.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by emilysmama 

Among my dd's Kindergarten's friends, eligibility to do AR was more of a status symbol, rather than a challenging activity. In my experience, you would get far better results by simply convincing your child's teacher to make more challenging books available to your son.

I totally agree with this. In fact I am opposed to rewards for reading, which is what the whole "points" thing in AR amounts to. The research by Alfie Kohn shows that generally reading rewards programs encourage kids to game the system and suss out the least challenging books which will earn them the most points, and that intrinsic enjoyment of reading is lower, with levels of motivation ending up lower than they would have been when the program is no longer in place. 

Miranda

[1frugalmom]

I agree with Geofizz and KCMichigan -

Volunteer to come help out in the classroom.  You would be amazed at what you learn.  While you are there you can offer to get him started on the AR system and help him get logged in and take a test.  My mother (a retired teacher) did this for DD in Kindergarten.  She would just come in a little before dismissal and take DD to the library to take a test.  This really helped us when it came to showing the school what level DD was reading at.  If school won't let him check out a higher level book then have him bring one from home - this also worked for us.  We would send a couple books to school with DD and if she was done with all her work she could read a book at her level instead of the "baby books" (as she called them) that were in the classroom.  This gave her something to do in her downtime and helped her stay out of trouble.  You can check any book you have at home to see what AR level it is at arbookfind.com.  If your son can prove to them he can comprehend the books he reads at level "X" by passing the AR test then they can't argue differently.  Another thing that worked for us was the school allowed DD to go to 1st grade for reading when she was in Kindergarten.  You might ask if this is a possibility.  He shouldn't have to sit by himself.  For some reason the school didn't continue this in 1st grade and that was when our problems started.

Does your school do MAP testing?  If so these tests are very helpful in proving what level a child is at.  Our school does reading and math MAP tests during 1st semester and again during 2nd semester to show what level the students are working at and if they have gone up from one semester to the next.  This helped us since DD was working at least 2 grade levels above in both reading and math.  This was the school's test, so they couldn't argue their own results.  There may be other tests like the MAP, I'm not sure, so you could ask what your school uses.

I wouldn't worry too much about the impulse control issue at his age either - our DD is now 8 and she still has some impulse control problems and I really think it is part of the nature of some gifted children.  She sees something shiny or interesting and she wants it - no matter if it is in the middle of the road or in a pile of toxic waste and if she is told she can't have it, watch out...lol!

Our DD luckily made it past Kindergarten without too much drama (I think because it was new to her and sort of exciting), but by 1st grade she was saying the same thing as your son, almost right off the bat, - "I hate school!".  DD was in trouble the very first day of school and continued to get in trouble for this and that.  Some of the things were very petty, in our opinion, and other things we were concerned about.  We spoke with the teacher at parent/teacher conferences and explained our concerns.  The teacher was very rigid and seemed overwhelmed.  She told us she believed our daughter was oppositional defiant or had conduct disorder.  Seriously - at the time, she was a sweet, bright, creative, inquisitive little 6 year old to us (she still is - just older).  Once we realized the teacher didn't have a clue about our daughter we went to the school counselor.  This was also basically a dead end and the school counselor told us she thought DD had ADD/ADHD.  We didn't truly agree with this "diagnosis" either - sure DD did wiggle a lot, but if she was doing something she enjoyed she could sit still for hours.  We told the counselor we thought DD was bored and she responded like we were crazy - she asked if we were thinking DD could be gifted and proceeded to explain that in order to be considered gifted DD would have to be gifted across the board and at a very high level.  She acted like it was nearly impossible and a child had to be a total genius to be gifted.  We just knew DD was bright, but her reaction made us think maybe we were wrong, but we couldn't just let DD continue to struggle without doing something, so we went to the principal.  It took that entire school year to get anything accomplished and finally at the end of April we were able to get a School Improvement Plan (SIP) in place.  It wasn't much, but it was a start.  We also made an appointment for our DD to have a psycho-educational assessment done so we would know exactly what was going on and if she was ADD/ADHD or anything else we would know and deal with it.  The IQ testing was just part of the assessment and even though we were curious about her IQ that wasn't why we wanted the testing done.  If we hadn't advocated for DD and done the testing we would have just continued down the wrong path.  I truly believe, and I've told people this many, many times, that the testing we paid out of pocket for was the best thing we ever did.  It gave us a clear picture of how bright our daughter is and helped us understand why she does some of the things she does and how she ticks!  She had just turned 7 when we had her tested and I've read and heard different opinions on how old a child should be to be tested, but it wouldn't hurt for you to look into it and consider testing an option.  DD is now in 3rd grade and because of the testing and our persistence she now has a gifted IEP and is doing much better in school.  We have more work to do, but we are now at a point we can stop and take a breath at least.  We also have DD7 that we plan to have tested this year since she is also an accelerated learner.  She is just much more easy going at school, so she doesn't rock the boat the way DD8 did.

Good luck to you!  Let us know how things are going or if you have any questions!

[momyarb]

Thank you very much for all the replies. 

I help out in class every Thursday, though this has not been an issue until this week. I was able to talk to his teacher today. The bottom line is that she said he is bored and an active child, and this is unfortunately something we may have to deal with through his entire academic "career". She accommodates as much as she can, but she has 17 kids and only one volunteer every day. His Kindergarten is half day, so he goes from 9-12:30. 

In January, he will be tested using the CogAT (the school's only testing they do for their Highly Capable Program. They don't accept outside testing). We will see what happens there. 

My husband is actually at the school right now regarding the librarian. A few weeks ago, my son found a book that he wanted to check out that was about data analysis (it was still a elementary level book). I explained to him what it was about and asked if he still wanted to check it out. He said he did, so he stood in line to do that. When it was his turn, the lady said that she would help him find a more appropriate book for him. I am embarrassed to say that I just stood there and let her. I mentioned this to his teacher, and she said she would talk to the librarian and let her know that he reads at a much higher level. So, the next time, she showed me that the table that they have books laid out for Kindergartners has the reading level on the inside. She also told me that the library has books that go up to reading level grade 5. I took that as he could choose a book from anywhere. Last week, he got up when it was time to pick a book and went to the shelves. She directed him back to the Kindergarten table. I, again, didn't say anything. So, today I prepared myself to stand up for him. When it was time to pick out a book, I took him over to the shelves and helped him pick a book. He found one he liked and stood in line. When he got to the lady who does the check out, she asked where he got it. He said his mom helped him find it. She asked if the librarian said it was ok. At this time, the librarian came over to see what was going on. I said I helped him find the book. They both told me it had to come from the Kindergarten table. I  reminded them that a few weeks ago they said he could find a higher level book. They, again, said that it had to be from the Kindergarten table, and that the levels go up to third grade. My poor child, who has had this happen twice now, just went and grabbed a book randomly, as he's done the last few times. I was so mad I had to leave early. 

Looking closer at the AR, I'm not sure I entirely understand the points system or what the significance is. It is now more of the principle of the matter. His teacher said he needed it, the librarian said she would look into it, and even if we don't use it, I think it would set a poor example with the lengths I will go to ensure he gets what he needs (for a lack of a better way to word that). 

Ok so that's the update so far. Thank you again so very much!! I didn't expect to have to battle so early in his school years.

[A&A]

If he's bored in K, you may want to consider a grade skip.  (Of course find out for sure if boredom is his problem, or not)

www.nationdeceived.org

[jenjj]

As a child I had this same experence. Starting in preschool I was separated from the other children. In preschool I was allowed to work on higher level worksheets independantly. In kindygarden, I was told to go and play on the other side of the room when the class was completing work I had already done. Starting in first grade I was forced to work at the same level as the rest of my class. I was reading at a seventh grade level and a fourth grade level in math but was forced to do first grade work. About third grade my grades started to drop. The amount of work I had to complete had increased but it was still so easy. I did not have the emotional skills to cope with completing 45 long devision problems when I was doing algebra at home. So a pattern of poor school performance started. It was not until college that I again received good grades as I was able to choose classes that interested me. I wonder if a differnt school would better fit your child, maybe a more hands on school that allows him to work at his own pase.

[Silverring]

Worth noting that it's common for gifted children to be misdiagnosed with ADHD as well as it being possible to be both gifted and have ADHD.  Gifted kids who are bored and under challenged in school can display impulse control issues, inattention and hyperactivity through frustration.  

We home school a gifted child who may have ADHD but it was really hard to unpick at school because he was so crippled by boredom while he was there.

[mtiger]

Why not take your son to the public library and have him take books from there? Seems like a lot less hassle.

[natlav]

Hi - hate to say it but i had the same problem in kindergarten and am going through it again in first grade.  It got so bad i finally called our pedi to have DS assessed for ADHD - well he told us there was nothing wrong with him and he was just an active intelligent and bored boy.  He said that he will have issues in school because he doesnt fit well with the way it is now and suggested we home school (not an option as both DH and i work) he basically told me that i was in for a rough couple of years then.  At least we managed to finally get the school to agree to test DS after 1.5 years of notes every day about his behavior issues and me telling them he was bored.  Well he tested off the charts as expected - i had to chuckle when the principal said to me in a meeting before xmas "well we can see he is clearly of superior intellect" this is the same lady who told me last year he had severe behavior issues and hinted he might be emotionally disturbed - UGH. 

The down side is even though they acknowledge he is well advanced they wont consider a grade skip since he is "disruptive" in class - they have done some differentiation but i dont think its enough.  He gets in the most trouble in literacy and math - the two subjects he excels in on the testing and when i said he may still be bored even with what they have provided they dismissed me.  My son tells me all the time he just cant be good in school and he doesnt know why - he has even started saying he can't control himself (no doubt something the teacher tells him constantly). 

If you can do it  i'd pull him from school or look for an alternative education (montessori or maybe a gifted or magnet school?) - i wish we had pulled DS in Kindergarten - now we are sunk all his friends are there and his brother goes there so i dont think we have that option any more.  that means 4 more years of dealing with these guys and getting notes every day and will probably ruin DSs self esteem not to mention the fact he has yet to learn a single thing at school in 1.5 years.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by natlav 

i wish we had pulled DS in Kindergarten - now we are sunk all his friends are there and his brother goes there so i dont think we have that option any more.  that means 4 more years of dealing with these guys and getting notes every day and will probably ruin DSs self esteem not to mention the fact he has yet to learn a single thing at school in 1.5 years.

Wow, this story seems so tragic. Do you have no options? I know you said that you can't homeschool because both you and your husband work. The same was true of me and my husband, but we changed that. It involved a lot of changes to our living situation, but it worked out for the best. 

Do you have any other school options? If he's learning nothing, hates school and you foresee that it'll destroy his self-esteem, then how much can it possibly matter that he's got friends there or that his brother goes to that school? Find an alternative! Kids change schools and leave friends all the time, whether because their family is moving or because there's a difficulty with "fit." I don't think you're sunk. There are always options. Sometimes you just have to step back and look at the big picture to realize that a choice exists, and has to be made. 

And just a suggestion: never use the word "bored" when discussing problems with teachers or administrators at school. Talk about "making sure he's fully engaged" or "the need for appropriate challenge." Just don't use the 'b' word: it really puts teachers on the defensive which is not in your child's best interest.

Miranda

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by natlav 

If you can do it  i'd pull him from school or look for an alternative education (montessori or maybe a gifted or magnet school?) - i wish we had pulled DS in Kindergarten - now we are sunk all his friends are there and his brother goes there so i dont think we have that option any more.  that means 4 more years of dealing with these guys and getting notes every day and will probably ruin DSs self esteem not to mention the fact he has yet to learn a single thing at school in 1.5 years.

That sounds like a very frustrating situation for everyone involved. Your DS, you, and the teachers who are dealing with his behaviour in class. If the social aspect is the only factor holding you back from finding an educational environment with a better fit for him, consider whether that is a really compelling reason to prevent you from making a change.

My kids are much older. They moved through several different schools and programs as they grew and their needs developed and new educational options became available. Sometimes they attended the same school, most of the time they didn't. It was always challenging when they left one group of friends and had to make new friends. Overall though, the fact that they were in a suitable educational environment - with appropriate intellectual challenges, engaging teachers, and sympatico peers - more than made up for any temporary social adjustments.

Different kids in different schools can be a hassle, but it's worth it if your kids are happier. Leaving friends isn't so hard if you still see them after school and during extracurricular activities and if you've made some new friends who share your passions and engage at the same level. 

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

 Find an alternative! Kids change schools and leave friends all the time

Miranda

Cross-posted!! 

[A&A]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree 

hers, and sympatico peers - more than made up for any temporary social adjustments.

Different kids in different schools can be a hassle, but it's worth it if your kids are happier. Leaving friends isn't so hard if you still see them after school and during extracurricular activities and if you've made some new friends who share your passions and engage at the same level. 

  Yes, exactly.

[natlav]

I've decided to take DS to an open house to check out a school for the gifted that we have nearby - its expensive and my husband isnt onboard but i think we need to go check it out anyways.  They offer weekend programs on saturdays during the school year as well as vacation programs.  If DS likes it i will sign him up for a saturday or vacation program and see how it goes.  Only problem is my oldes son saw the programs they offered and wants to do it - they need to be recommended to attend the programs - not sure how to break it to him that he likely wont be able to go.