My son is always so angry. Does this sound like ODD? - Page 2

[velveeta]

We are on a similar journey. I have two boys, who seem normal to the world. They both have an ASD diagnosis, And have improved dramatically on nutritional supplements. What opened my eyes was some testing we did for Kryptopyrroles in the urine.

This showed me that they were not absorbing B6 and zinc. And they were both deficient.

Adding supplements and switching to a gluten-free diet helped.

Finally, we are using low dose naltrexone, and the gains have been astounding.

I also want to share that I struggled with episodic rage and depression my whole life until I started high-dose niacin (vitamin B3). I take 3 grams in divided doses/day. I am cool as a cucumber now. And it has shown me in a powerful way that this kind of behavior WAS NEVER MY FAULT.

I and I will keep going with the treatments for my kids because they are working.

[livinglife]

Dietary changes DO work for many to alleviate and normalize symptoms as do homeopathic treatments.  These are valid options supported and used frequently by many.  But, the mainstream does not normalize these options and support them as effective. 

I agree that those who find help through the mental health system are often themselves frustrated, irritated, and angry.  How could they not be.  The system is underfunded and broken.  Labels in young children are necessary to get reimbursed by insurance companies pure and simple and parents see through it and hate it.  It is dehumanizing and frankly labels are not necessary to treat symptoms only necessary for the insurance company to reimburse any help you receive.  And then, just as important as medication treatment, is family dynamics, trauma and developmental skill building.  But, try to get therapy!  The best practitioners won't even accept insurance any more.  And that is because they may only be reimbursed at the rate of 25 to 30 dollars an hour if the claim isn't rejected.  Labels and medication treatment plans are seen as a fast pace way for the insurance company to meet their legal obligation.  Therapy is rationed by insurance companies 3 to 15 sessions at a time when this is where real help and understanding occurs. 

On top of this, there are limits to medication care in that there can be horrible side effects and often poor treatment outcomes.  Of course, we all want our children to be happy and healthy.  We all consider ourselves to be good parents.  And I do think we understand each other's point of view, just, use a different frame work for solving problems. 

So far we've prevented my son's need for anti anxiety meds (anxiety often goes hand and hand with an ASD) by altering his diet, treating him homeopathically and keeping his life consistent.  It was touch and go before we put him on the diet.  He was irritable, anxious, emotionally labile and VERY moody.  We'll see how he continues to fare but I hope for the best. 

Look to the research of Dr. Martha Herbert of Mass General to discover proven links between food intolerance and change in brain wave functioning, heart and pulse rate.  Look at her suggestions for how to impact mental health through diet and general intestinal functioning.  She is someone who is on the vanguard and gets little notice or funding because there is no money to be made from her research.

However, I have a friend who runs drug studies who is regularly sent on junkets around the country for "trainings".  Tell me, where are our best and brightest minds going to spend their time...researching intestinal functioning, nutritional deficiencies and diet or drug interventions?  

[Snapdragon]

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Edited by Snapdragon - 12/23/12 at 6:42pm

[pek64]

Originally Posted by Tigerle 

Yes, great post!

pek64, you might consider that kids may end up with lots of labels simply because they have a lot of problems, which may explain why those families are stressed!

I was simply pointing out that she did not discuss what happened *after* getting the labels. Labels don't solve the problems on their own. It's what happens *after* the diagnosis that would make the difference. If recommending getting a diagnosis, hence the label, then the follow-up of how it helped should be offered, I think.

[pek64]

Originally Posted by velveeta 

We are on a similar journey. I have two boys, who seem normal to the world. They both have an ASD diagnosis, And have improved dramatically on nutritional supplements. What opened my eyes was some testing we did for Kryptopyrroles in the urine.
This showed me that they were not absorbing B6 and zinc. And they were both deficient.
Adding supplements and switching to a gluten-free diet helped.
Finally, we are using low dose naltrexone, and the gains have been astounding.
I also want to share that I struggled with episodic rage and depression my whole life until I started high-dose niacin (vitamin B3). I take 3 grams in divided doses/day. I am cool as a cucumber now. And it has shown me in a powerful way that this kind of behavior WAS NEVER MY FAULT.
I and I will keep going with the treatments for my kids because they are working.

Wow! Stories like these inspire me!

[Heavenly]

Originally Posted by pek64 

Diet changes may help, and are free. That would delay seeking an evaluation, but only for a short time. Or you can get your child evaluated immediately. When I was faced with that decision, I made dietary changes. My son is well adjusted without side effects. It is work to make the foods he needs, rather than getting take out, but he's a teen now, and we both feel it's worth it! We are still learning, even after all these years, how to make it even better! I have learned much!
I hope all who are faced with this decision are happy with the results! Good luck!

You are assuming a lot about people with your comments.  Guess what?  My son has had ALL the dietary changes you could possibly have from the time he was 3 years old.  If a child is truly mentally ill dietary changes aren't going to do anything and it is dangerous to advise people to not get help from a medical professional.  I honestly do not believe you know what you are talking about.  Because if your child was truly mentally ill dietary changes would not have cured him.  Dietary changes do not cure bipolar disorder or schizophrenia or any other serious mental health conditions.

[pek64]

Originally Posted by Heavenly 

You are assuming a lot about people with your comments.  Guess what?  My son has had ALL the dietary changes you could possibly have from the time he was 3 years old.  If a child is truly mentally ill dietary changes aren't going to do anything and it is dangerous to advise people to not get help from a medical professional.  I honestly do not believe you know what you are talking about.  Because if your child was truly mentally ill dietary changes would not have cured him.  Dietary changes do not cure bipolar disorder or schizophrenia or any other serious mental health conditions.

I am assuming nothing about people. I am suggesting that dietary changes be tried as a first step. If the problem is resolved, great! If not, then it's time for step two.

I have a sister-in-law who is schizophrenic, and I saw it before her parents or siblings. They did not want to accept it. She has lots of problems. Anger, though, can have roots in nutritional deficiencies, as well as food allergies and intolerances. If it were me, I would rule out food and nutritional issues before seeking a mental health professional. That's all. Other than I asked for more information on life after diagnoses. I'm sorry if wanting additional information offended you. I didn't mean to upset anyone.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by Heavenly 

 

You are assuming a lot about people with your comments.  Guess what?  My son has had ALL the dietary changes you could possibly have from the time he was 3 years old.  If a child is truly mentally ill dietary changes aren't going to do anything and it is dangerous to advise people to not get help from a medical professional.  I honestly do not believe you know what you are talking about.  Because if your child was truly mentally ill dietary changes would not have cured him.  Dietary changes do not cure bipolar disorder or schizophrenia or any other serious mental health conditions.

Heavenly, I know your story and that of your son, I have been following it on here for many years, and I know you have been on a difficult journey and you made what you truly believe to be the right decisions and I am in no position to question your choices. However, you are treading on murky ground when talk about what is mental illness. Mental illness, is not the same as physical disease, there is no definitive physical diagnostic tests to determine which mental disease a person has. There are no blood tests, saliva tests or genetic tests, for mental health illness, as child psychiatrist, Dr Sami Timimi, of the "No More Psychiatric Labels" campaign states:

"Despite years of searching for biological correlates, the failure of basic science research to reveal any specific biological marker for any psychiatric diagnostic category reveals that current psychiatric diagnostic systems do not share the same scientific security of belonging to the biological sciences as the rest of medicine."

So I don't really understand what you mean by "true" mental illness, all we have are labels made up from a menu of behaviors published in a book. This makes a mental illness diagnosis  entirely subjective and dependent upon the person interpreting the book. This givens no insight into cause of a mental illness, because the only diagnostic tool is a manual put together by psychiatrists for the purpose of creating conditions that can treated with pharmaceutical drugs - without this the profession is pretty much defunct. At the end of the day, all you really have people who are in distress, some very severely. In many cases there may well be a physical cause for this distress that manifests as behavioral issues, brain damage, poisoning, immune issues, allergies, food intolerance, nutritional deficiency, and vaccine damage etc, and without doubt these can be addressed physically without mind altering pharmaceuticals, and even resolved, with nutritional or other forms of alternative healing, The only mental health illness that can be diagnosed with confidence using the current method is PTSD because it steams from a specific incident. Dr Timimi, explains what perhaps you mean by "true" mental illness:

"[there] is a substantial body of evidence linking states regarded as the most serious in psychiatry, such as the experience of hearing voices and psychosis, to trauma and abuse including sexual, physical and racial abuse, poverty, neglect, and stigma. This is why it is important to attempt to understand psychotic experiences in the context of the person's life story. Not to do so can be harmful because it obscures and mystifies the origins of problematic experiences and behaviours that has the potential to be understood."

Please do not think I am saying any of your son's issues are due to abuse or anything like that, because I am most certainly not. I only wish your family the very best, and hope that your son will thrive both physically and mentally. 

Edited by Mirzam - 12/24/12 at 9:12am

[lanamommyphd07]

Originally Posted by Heavenly 

You are assuming a lot about people with your comments.  Guess what?  My son has had ALL the dietary changes you could possibly have from the time he was 3 years old.  If a child is truly mentally ill dietary changes aren't going to do anything and it is dangerous to advise people to not get help from a medical professional.  I honestly do not believe you know what you are talking about.  Because if your child was truly mentally ill dietary changes would not have cured him.  Dietary changes do not cure bipolar disorder or schizophrenia or any other serious mental health conditions.

This is not completely true. Many of my own patients with a pediatric bipolar disorder have become much better after removing most foods from the diet (if the families are able to---and that's been the biggest struggle). Many kids I saw with a suspected pediatric bipolar disorder also had a history of ear infections/abx/sugar fiending. Almost all of my adult and child patients with depression/anxiety have seen an improvement of symptoms by removing sugar and other elevating foods from their diet (or at least becoming aware of what a donut can do). While there are plenty of examples of the rare individual whose mental illness does not change at all as a result of food, in most cases there really is a link between mental illness and diet. Many children who have come to me with a dx of ADHD have been "cured" by nutrition and some sensory work, so yes, in some cases the nutrition advice would have saved some of my patients thousands of dollars before they walked in the door. I don't think any nutrition advice is reckless, especially when so few folks truly have access to mental health services. At the very least, a parent could come in and say "okay, we did Feingold, we did gluten free, and we are now raw vegans. We worked on gut flora. We've seen improvement here and here, but still have these issues remaining."

The biggest surprise? When it became clear that it was, in fact, a dietary thing? A surprising amount of parents chose a medication route instead. The healthy eating route was just too darned hard. But that "severe" dx would carry anyway. If you compare the symptoms of pbd with those of a sugar addict, there are some really surprising finds.

[Heavenly]

Originally Posted by lanamommyphd07 

This is not completely true. Many of my own patients with a pediatric bipolar disorder have become much better after removing most foods from the diet (if the families are able to---and that's been the biggest struggle). Many kids I saw with a suspected pediatric bipolar disorder also had a history of ear infections/abx/sugar fiending. Almost all of my adult and child patients with depression/anxiety have seen an improvement of symptoms by removing sugar and other elevating foods from their diet (or at least becoming aware of what a donut can do). While there are plenty of examples of the rare individual whose mental illness does not change at all as a result of food, in most cases there really is a link between mental illness and diet. Many children who have come to me with a dx of ADHD have been "cured" by nutrition and some sensory work, so yes, in some cases the nutrition advice would have saved some of my patients thousands of dollars before they walked in the door. I don't think any nutrition advice is reckless, especially when so few folks truly have access to mental health services. At the very least, a parent could come in and say "okay, we did Feingold, we did gluten free, and we are now raw vegans. We worked on gut flora. We've seen improvement here and here, but still have these issues remaining."

The biggest surprise? When it became clear that it was, in fact, a dietary thing? A surprising amount of parents chose a medication route instead. The healthy eating route was just too darned hard. But that "severe" dx would carry anyway. If you compare the symptoms of pbd with those of a sugar addict, there are some really surprising finds.

IMO the majority of cases of diagnosis of pediatric bipolar disorder are not accurate.  I have heard way too many children being diagnosed with symptoms that were not clear cut and that could have been treated or diagnosed in other ways.  But if you have actually seen a true case of pediatric bipolar disorder like my son then you would have no doubt what a true case actually looks like and that food changes do nothing.  My son had all the food changes, no sugar, no gluten, no dairy, dietary supplements, the whole nine yards.  And he was still so symptomatic that he was unable to function.  I cannot stand the attitude on these boards that if you are using meds then you must not have tried anything else.  Because this is just not true.

[Heavenly]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

So I don't really understand what you mean by "true" mental illness, all we have are labels made up from a menu of behaviors published in a book.

If you have actually seen a person with a true case of bipolar disorder or schizophrenia you would not be asking this. 

[lanamommyphd07]

While there are plenty of examples of the rare individual whose mental illness does not change at all as a result of food,

I hate to quote myself here, but this is your validation, if you want to see it, Heavenly. If you are a parent who has gone through the gamut, then you carry a special kind of advocacy that you have learned along the way. Sometimes people will find your passion offputting, but don't let that stop you. People are not taking your experience and knowledge away by suggesting a look at food, but you have BTDT and already know that is a reasonable thing to examine, since you have already done it.

Most parents who present with kids that initially appear to carry the full range of bipolar symptoms and perhaps even have a whole family full of people who carry a bipolar disorder may not walk away with that diagnosis confirmed. There are a whole lot of people who are "diagnosed" by the net, by well-meaning friends, etc. that don't actually carry it, but it does take an evaluation in many cases to be certain. (It would, however, be good to examine those nutritional aspects while also self-diagnosing on the internet, too...it would save a step with the therapist/psychologist/inpatient unit, is what I'm getting at.)

But honestly, "mental illness" also includes such things as adjustment disorder, depression, anxiety, etc., and those indeed can be affected by food. Conditions such as pediatric bipolar disorder and childhood schizophrenia are so very rare that they encompass a very small percentage of the overall concept of mental illness. Parents who must live it every day really do not feel as if it is rare, because it's what they experience 24/7....but it really is.

[pek64]

No one said that moms whose kids take meds never tried anything. Perhaps those who tried dietary changes to no avail believe that they should help others save time. But what if the dietary change works in this case, and the mom is talked out of trying, and spends years trying different meds, only to discover a dietary change that works? She will regret the years wasted on medication. So, without a crystal ball, it's a try and see if it fails scenario, either way.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by Heavenly 

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

So I don't really understand what you mean by "true" mental illness, all we have are labels made up from a menu of behaviors published in a book.

If you have actually seen a person with a true case of bipolar disorder or schizophrenia you would not be asking this. 

I am merely stating how mental disorders are diagnosed. There is no blood test, saliva test, genetic test, or any other biological test for these conditions. There are very distressed people who's symptoms fit certain criteria, as described in the DSM, that get labeled bipolar or schizophrenic. That's all. How can you say what is true and what is not true in a subjective diagnosis? All you can have is degrees of severity. 

[underAttack]

Thanks for the replies, all appreciated.  Continued comments appreciated and will be read, or just feel free to vent.  It made me feel a lot better, this is therapeutic.  Thank you everyone!  We are working on this...

[A_Random_Phrase]

Originally Posted by underAttack 
 Unexpected circumstances and unmet expectations.  I realized he did not deal well with these things when he was a baby and am so used to dealing with it in prevention mode, I didn't talk about it yesterday.

I am far from any expert, but this sounds like he might have a mild form of autism. I know a lady who adopted a son who has to have everything "just so". She has to let him know in advance exactly what to expect. I believe he has been labeled as autistic.

I have heard of natural means to deal with autism, but I have not pursued anything like this because my child's outbursts were different. Pulling her out of public school made such a huge difference, that I refused to allow her to return even when she wanted to (usually, because a friend had convinced her it was a good idea). I valued the safety of my other children and myself too much.

I have heard that autism may be caused by vaccinations. I know there are ideas out there of cleansing a child's body of the vaccines' effects. I don't know if they work, or how well they work. I am not saying vaccines do or don't cause this problem. I am just throwing out ideas (that may have already been mentioned; I don't know). Anyway, it seems that the vaccine damages the nervous system or something. I'm not quite sure.

Google searches may turn up something, if you're interested in pursuing that avenue. Dr. Mercola comes up as an idea for a search term. It may or may not help. It just popped into my head.

[earthmama4]

Your son's behaviors do also sound to me like high-functioning autism (PDD-NOS, Aspergers). I have three children on the spectrum, and two with behaviors that manifest similar to your son's. The doctor we are currently seeing (who is brilliant BTW!) said that 95% of kids with ASD have symptoms of ODD. They are oppositional in response to being constantly overwhelmed and confused and frustrated. The world doesn't make sense to these kids! Their brains work differently. So they try to make it make sense and attach themselves to certain expectations and then when that doesn't happen it just feels like everything is coming apart. ASD kids usually have a terrible time with transitions, changes in plans and schedules, and things not turning out how they expected. Their emotional response is often out of proportion to the event. They can express this physically through tantrums (hitting, kicking, screaming) and verbally through "ranting and raving" ("everything is horrible, you never _______, you always _________, you don't care about me, I hate life! etc) My oldest does that outwardly - lashing out at me and others, my youngest with ASD does that inwardly, lashing out at himself. 

You describe that your son is starting to have social problems. Its common for higher functioning kids to have social problems in later childhood while perhaps not in early childhood (or at least not in ways that seem obvious to us). The nuances of social interaction become more complex as children grow and children with social delays start to struggle as that gap widens between them and their peers. School and home pressures also begin to increase as we expect more of the child. They start to crack under the pressure and symptoms previously unnoticed really start to show through. 

It also sounds like your child has sensory issues relating to touch (tactile) and food (gustatory). Rejecting (loudly) the sunscreen is a tactile sensory issue. Eating only crunchy brown or white foods is extremely common in kids on the spectrum. We call it the "beige" diet. My oldest with Aspergers at that age would only eat milk, cereal, chicken nuggets, fries, grilled cheese, cheese pizza (his only source of veggies was that red sauce!), and toast. Maybe an occasional grape or slice of watermelon (both crunchy-type fruits). Being "addicted" to dairy and wheat based foods is also extremely common. And it may (or may not) be to blame for some of the outbursts. The damage to his gut from food sensitivities and a limited diet makes him less likely to absorb nutrients from his food, and the proteins in wheat and dairy aren't properly broken down and can leak into the bloodstream and get past the blood/brain barrier and cause all sorts of behavior issues. Weak liver detox (from both a limited diet and possibly heredity) make processing food chemicals like additives and dyes harder and also can lead to behavior issues.  

I truly understand the heartache and struggle that can ensue with food issues. I was not able to conquer it with my oldest. He was 13 by the time I learned about this and we tried but I couldn't take the ensuing tantrums of an adult-sized kid. But at 7? You betcha I'd do the GFCF diet it in a heartbeat. I am doing it with my 11 year old. We cut out all dairy and gluten about 8 weeks ago and he is a different kid. Seriously. Went from having those "angry at the whole world" episodes daily to maybe 2-3 X a month. You have to stick with it and you have to be prepared to endure the withdrawal behaviors, but its so worth it. Our health plan is very similar to another poster  - GFCF diet, no food dyes or preservatives, plenty of sleep with melantonin if needed, a simple home life with a predicable schedule (the last bad tantrum my DS had was after a marathon shopping trip), eliminate screens and media (this triggers aggression and irritability within hours), and getting exercise and sunshine (if you can find it lol). I agree with the other mama that nature walks, bike riding, and swimming have a centering effect on the brain. But again, make it simple, and predictable. Communicate clearly the when, where, how long, etc. Stay away from "overstimulating" environments like shopping centers, children's museums, and such for while. If you need to do it, keep it short.

I would highly recommend that you ask for an evaluation at his school. I think with a child this unhappy, this severely affecting family life and dynamics, you need the support a "label" provides. I doesn't mean you need to put your child on meds or in therapy. It just means you know from which sources to find your information. Ask for an ADOS from the school psychologist. This will give or rule out a diagnosis of ASD at no cost to you. If your child is on the spectrum, you need to know. You will have to adjust your parenting and your approach to him at home and school to give him the best chance at success. Its better to do this sooner than later. If not, then you can move on to other approaches, perhaps seeing a psychologist to evaluate for mood disorders, ADHD, etc. And unfortunately, it is possible to have both ASD and co-existing conditions such as bipolar. But everything will be colored differently if a child has autism so that is the first step, IMO. Big hugs and hope you find your answers soon, mama.

[velveeta]

Earthmama, thank you for that wonderful description. I am sending it to my mother to illustrate more fully about my son's issues. It is a good reminder for all ASD parents!