When your child destroys things at another child's house.... - Page 3

[serenbat]

Quote:

One summer I hired a bunch of my high school students to come help me paint my house. They did a crappy job, but I was paying non-professionals $8/hour. It was good enough. Till one of the kids flushed a bunch of paper towels. Everyone denied it. These were 16/17/18 year old kids. They should bloody well know better. It cost more than a thousand dollars to fix. Making this project so expensive I would have been better off paying professionals--oh well.

I didn't go after any of the kids. I didn't go after their parents. Someone made a mistake. No one was willing to take blame, which makes me think that someone was feeling a lot of guilt. (I knew the kids pretty well.) It was a stupid mistake. They shouldn't have done it. They know now.

I am still close with them. I was mad and ranty for about a week but then I hugged each of them and said I was sorry for ranting. It was a mistake. Life is like that. Let's move on.

to each their own- I also had a neighbor back into my car- mine was not drivable and their was......I had to have it fited to get to work, they had to pay via their insurance-dollar amount should not be a factor-IMO

in this case I'm sure you learned a lesson as well-it's great if you have the money to do it, not everyone does- some have to rely on their insurance and it can cost the person far more (with deductibles and a rise in insurance because of it) if you have money to just use maybe cost doesn't matter that much to you

I feel you have to teach to from a very early age, it may not mean much to you or you may feel it cost more than it should, etc., but it does effect others- in the OP's case it a friendship or not-IMO

[MrsGregory]

kristah1000, I'm so sorry that happened to you and your little darling.  Your friends are being jerks.  Continuing to reference the situation so blatantly when they haven't taken any discreet steps to prevent a repeat is in poor taste and not very well thought out, at best.  At worst, your friends are picking on a toddler.  Your friends are picking on your toddler.

Your little one sounds like a tough cookie, going on after that nonsense. 

I understand you want to continue the friendship, however, I would really advise you to sit down and weigh the plusses of remaining friends against that big negative. 

I won't go into details, but my family had family friends when I was small that were awful to me and my brother.  I spoke up, and said I didn't want to go to play at their house anymore.  I was ignored (I was scolded for being rude and speaking against adults.) and we kept in contact.  Later on I suppose it became more clear to my parents just how badly we'd been treated.  I know my father has a tremendous amount of guilt and anger for what happened.  I don't know how my mother feels.  The entire experience is one of the chief reasons for the strain and distance that has marked my adult relationship with my parents.  It was a big deal.  I'm not saying one really bad incident has to be the end of a long friendship;  no, friends are meant to be friends through thick and thin, sometimes.  I am saying that the way they behaved was very bad, and there is no excuse for them.  Personally, I would maintain adult contact, but keep my daughter away from them for a time.  Maybe they'll get the picture.  But that way, if the jerky behavior goes on, at least it's just you in the line of fire, and not your little one.  I'm so sorry if you lose this friendship.  It is hard.   

[serenbat]

Quote:

I understand you want to continue the friendship, however, I would really advise you to sit down and weigh the plusses of remaining friends against that big negative. 

this is just how I see it, the OP is placing her DD in the line of their fire

I feel you take the high road, replace and drop them-IMO

If you can be friends with someone you don't want your children around I really question how much that relations means- to me that is not a friends worth having.

[rightkindofme]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

If you can be friends with someone you don't want your children around I really question how much that relations means- to me that is not a friends worth having.

I have a lot of friends I don't visit with my children. I have a lot of friends who lead very adult lives and they aren't very willing to censor themselves for kids. So I mainly keep up with them online right now and we will spend more time together when my kids are older and less needy.

I don't think that someones worth is dependent on their ability to be friendly with little kids. Lots of people suck at that. I don't reject them wholesale I just don't bring my kids around them.

[sageowl]

To err is human, to forgive is divine.  Only you can decide whether the friendship is worth saving.

In the meantime, you can rest assured that they will no doubt have a similar experience someday with their own child that will put this whole incident into its proper perspective.  (They've still got to get through the teenage years, if nothing else!!!)

[serenbat]

Quote:

I don't think that someones worth is dependent on their ability to be friendly with little kids. Lots of people suck at that. I don't reject them wholesale I just don't bring my kids around them.

this other family does have kids and they know each other- I think that makes it very different- this is an established relationship- how do you explain to the three year old, it's only OK for mom and dad but no longer OK or you?

[rightkindofme]

I have friends with kids who are respectively a year older than both of my daughters. We had about a year and a half where we didn't hang out because of behavior issues. I still talked to my friend (the mom) online.

I didn't explain anything to my kids. We just got busy. That happens.

[serenbat]

Quote:

To err is human, to forgive is divine.

some do add - but ignorance is not bliss 

 frankly some never learn 

 

[kristah1000]

Wow, lots of responses and a lot to consider! Thanks so much . I will write more later when I have time but I wanted to be clear that we aren't upset with their DD at all for anything she said. I forgot to post in my update that when I checked on the girls I overheard their DD saying several times "don't mark on the walls" to my DD. even though all markers had been put away. It was obvious that she had either been told to say that to my DD, or had overheard conversations about it. Either way she isn't blamed, she obviously can't help what she has heard. We were more upset about the gossiping to friends that we didn't think were aware of the situation, and the laughing. I didn't laugh, I hugged my DD and gave a pretty obvious glare. I think they knew I wasn't impressed, but I also didn't want to ruin the evening since we had just arrived.

Also they have had their DD have accidents, actually she peed on our leather couch one day and I cleaned it up, no biggie. Her mom put her in time out and made her apologize (not what I would do but I am not the parent, I made sure she knew I wasn't upset at all). End of story, and I obviously wouldn't bring it up again because it was a mistake, they happen.

Anyway, I'll be back later to add some more thoughts on the situation. Thanks again for the replies! It really helps to get other perspectives, and has helped us consider things from different points of view

[serenbat]

Quote:

 We were more upset about the gossiping to friends that we didn't think were aware of the situation, and the laughing.

I'm sure this gives you a lot to think over.

[MrsGregory]

Also they have had their DD have accidents, actually she peed on our leather couch one day and I cleaned it up, no biggie. Her mom put her in time out and made her apologize (not what I would do but I am not the parent, I made sure she knew I wasn't upset at all). End of story, and I obviously wouldn't bring it up again because it was a mistake, they happen.

I wonder if the other parents aren't behaving the way they are because they feel you didn't react sternly enough if you didn't shout your little one down over the marker.  Obviously you dealt with your daughter, but if they (your friends) give their daughter a time-out for a pee accident, and you are focused more on gentle discipline, perhaps it's you they are trying to shame with their crappy behavior.  I don't think this excuses them in the least, the thought just popped in and I decided to share it.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme . 

I don't think that someones worth is dependent on their ability to be friendly with little kids. Lots of people suck at that. I don't reject them wholesale I just don't bring my kids around them.

I have so many friends without kids and even a bunch with kids who we don't hang out with our children. "Being busy" is a great excuse. That said, I do think sometimes children can change a friendship. OP, if this becomes the case for you I think that's OK and not something to feel guilty about. 

Originally Posted by sageowl 

To err is human, to forgive is divine.  Only you can decide whether the friendship is worth saving.

In the meantime, you can rest assured that they will no doubt have a similar experience someday with their own child that will put this whole incident into its proper perspective.  (They've still got to get through the teenage years, if nothing else!!!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kristah1000 

Wow, lots of responses and a lot to consider! Thanks so much . I will write more later when I have time but I wanted to be clear that we aren't upset with their DD at all for anything she said. I forgot to post in my update that when I checked on the girls I overheard their DD saying several times "don't mark on the walls" to my DD. even though all markers had been put away. It was obvious that she had either been told to say that to my DD, or had overheard conversations about it. Either way she isn't blamed, she obviously can't help what she has heard. We were more upset about the gossiping to friends that we didn't think were aware of the situation, and the laughing. I didn't laugh, I hugged my DD and gave a pretty obvious glare. I think they knew I wasn't impressed, but I also didn't want to ruin the evening since we had just arrived.
Also they have had their DD have accidents, actually she peed on our leather couch one day and I cleaned it up, no biggie. Her mom put her in time out and made her apologize (not what I would do but I am not the parent, I made sure she knew I wasn't upset at all). End of story, and I obviously wouldn't bring it up again because it was a mistake, they happen.
Anyway, I'll be back later to add some more thoughts on the situation. Thanks again for the replies! It really helps to get other perspectives, and has helped us consider things from different points of view

I agree that the variety of opinions can be helpful. I could sense from your OP that you were really taking the situation very seriously and had a great deal of respect for the other family...and that you were taking their concerns/feelings seriously. IMO, you are giving your child a perfectly adequate education about what to do in situations like this. 

Originally Posted by serenbat 

some do add - but ignorance is not bliss 

 frankly some never learn 

If I may, it seems like maybe you and the spoon friend had some issues before the spoon incident. Obviously we all understand friends with baggage but I think maybe you are trying to relate the OPs story too much with the story of the spoon. They don't seem all that relevant to me. 

OP, my most similar story on the receiving end was this one time that a 4 and 6 year old were visiting my then 4 year old DC. My DC had been giving a large Playmoblie castle for a gift from my grandmother. The way the two guests played with it was to break it apart (like you would play with Legos). It was a bummer because it was basically ruined. I chose to not even tell the parents or the kids. I suppose we kept a better eye on the kids when they played but nothing the parents would have noticed or anything. 

Recently my toddler was in an adult friends toy box that she keeps for children guests. DC ended up breaking something (I can't remember what it was). I do remember asking the host if she wanted me to see if I could fix it because I think it was somewhat unique and collectable. That's as far as I could have gone without being oddly over the top with my offers. An offer to pay would have been viewed as odd, I think. 

[lanamommyphd07]

The more the OP tells about the story, the more I'm .

I get the impression also that it's the parent/parent tension that is driving a lot of this. Very different approaches to parenting, guilt, shame, etc., and in shaming your dd, they are also shaming you. 

In this situation, I think I'd back off on events as well. You're in a Catch-22. If you model how to relax around kids, and behave around your DD the way you know is right, they will be shoving cameras at you to observe her. If you spend all your time observing your kid in person while you're at the house, then it sort-of defeats the purpose of getting some adult time "while the kids play", and then it's "oh, poor OP has to watch dd, you know her kiddo gets into stuff". 

I'd be hosting any visits at my house, and then continue the same spiel about the couch pee thing. Although I might not even bring it up to the family if something like it happened again. It really is part of childhood. 

I can't help have suspicion that their dd had a little more to do with it than anyone is giving her credit for ;-)

"Sorry, friends, cannot make the playdate. I'm afraid it might cost me". 

Really, I would never expect a GUEST!!! to replace anything they damaged. Even when it was intentional. Seriously, that's just plain tacky. Don't have guests if your stuff is more important than people. A friend once went to our mutual friend's house, and on the way in the front door stepped in the dog's poo. The poo got on the hallway rug, and then the home owner said "That rug is from Pottery Barn. You can just have a replacement shipped here". Everyone thought she was joking until the email craziness that ensued. It was her dog!!! Let's just say none of us ever went back to the house, and we all helped chip in for the stupid $250 front-entry (!) rug. We were also very blatant about the reason we wouldn't come over anymore, and she is no longer close to any of us.

[serenbat]

Quote:

Really, I would never expect a GUEST!!! to replace anything they damaged. Even when it was intentional. Seriously, that's just plain tacky. Don't have guests if your stuff is more important than people.

Intentional or not, how do you teach your children to be responsible for their action? Are they only responsible for certain things- like when they drive but nothing else? If your kids toys cause someone to fall in your home and they break a bone do you just say oh well?  I can think of numerous things- my mothers just had a neighbor's tree fall on her home- they had to pay for it (via insurance) but they had to take the responsibility even though they themselves didn't do it- act of nature.

Just wondering how you and others who feel this way square this.

[Silverring]

I feel that there is a heavily litigious culture that is causing people to apportion 'blame' far too often.  Children leave toys lying around.  As long as they aren't on stairs, if someone falls on them, that's unfortunate, but it's an accident.  If a tree falls, that's no-one's fault, unless the people whose garden it's in have been made aware that it is a danger to others and have chosen not to act on that information.

If a child draws on things, that's life.  I'd have my child apologise, help clean up the mess and that's the end of it, surely?  Kids make mistakes.  Adults make mistakes and assume that other people's children have the same skills as their own children.  It's just life.  I would neither punish the child nor pay extortionate amounts to replace items that were damaged during toddler play.  If  an older child deliberately vandalised something I would be extremely upset and question my parenting.  But this is normal behaviour for a 3 year old and what else is there to say?  Do a sweep before friends' children come over to remove potential problems, keep an eye on your kids when they're in other people's houses - potayto, potahto.  Everyone shares a little of the responsibility.

My sons' friend let them borrow a toy once, which they left on the floor and the puppy ate.  I replaced the toy.  But the way her mum snarled at my (then) 4 year old when he told her what had happened was disgraceful and I keep my distance now, due to that and other incidents where I feel she was unkind to him.  Children need to learn and they make lots of mistakes along the way.  I'd hope that other adults could show some compassion and help them learn in a safe, respectful way that there is a whole community teaching them, not blaming them, or their parents when things don't go according to plan.

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by MrsGregory 

I wonder if the other parents aren't behaving the way they are because they feel you didn't react sternly enough if you didn't shout your little one down over the marker.  Obviously you dealt with your daughter, but if they (your friends) give their daughter a time-out for a pee accident, and you are focused more on gentle discipline, perhaps it's you they are trying to shame with their crappy behavior.  I don't think this excuses them in the least, the thought just popped in and I decided to share it.

This makes a lot of sense. Because of DS's sensory issues etc. it seems we run into situations more often than I'd like. He can be destructive, both intentionally and unintentionally. It's vitally important to me to avoid publicly shaming him in any way. When he does something wrong, I address it very discretely with him, one-on-one. He would be very embarrassed otherwise, and he already works so hard to stay in control. Anyway, it has caused friction with a couple of my friends who are less aware of his special needs or of why I chose to parent him the way I do. They seem to want me to reprimand him in a much more public way. They are AP/GD in general but they still want to see more of a reaction. That is not how I chose to parent my child though. Discipline is something I feel should be private (and gentle, respectful, non-shaming, etc.) SOOOO that's a very long way of saying that I agree with MrsGregory, and also that your friends might just be annoyed that you aren't reacting (or... over-reacting) the way they would chose to.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

Intentional or not, how do you teach your children to be responsible for their action? Are they only responsible for certain things- like when they drive but nothing else? If your kids toys cause someone to fall in your home and they break a bone do you just say oh well?  I can think of numerous things- my mothers just had a neighbor's tree fall on her home- they had to pay for it (via insurance) but they had to take the responsibility even though they themselves didn't do it- act of nature.

Just wondering how you and others who feel this way square this.

It's through modeling. We model good behavior and our children tend to learn best that way. The fact that some people in our culture (including many on this thread) do not require guests to pay for damaged items does not mean that any of us are insensitive or are not responsible for our actions. I think you are having some sort of personal reaction to this thread that is causing you to read into things that simply aren't there.  

I think you are very focused on the financial end of personal responsibility for actions. Paying for things is sometimes the best solution for problems, mistakes, accidents but it is not always the culturally expected solution - nor is it always the moral high-road. In a lot of cases the best solution is recognizing that your host has reasonable expectations and is a gracious person, and apologizing. It is 100% true that we have to adapt our behavior and expectations for those around us (which is another thing learned my modeling) and that we should pick our friends wisely.  In the case of your spoon friend - you entertained a friend that clearly did not share your values about cleaning up after a party and the value of tableware. Another way to look at this is that you should take some responsibility for that friendship. 

To the OP, I say that I understand being taken back by her treatment on NYE. This is the time to be proactive with this friendship to be sure you are not a part of one of those friendships that evolve with a lot of negativity and gossip. I know I would prefer to give this a breather or hash things out rather than get into one of those dynamics. You have done well by this situation.

[sassyfirechick]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme 

I have a lot of friends I don't visit with my children. I have a lot of friends who lead very adult lives and they aren't very willing to censor themselves for kids. So I mainly keep up with them online right now and we will spend more time together when my kids are older and less needy.

I don't think that someones worth is dependent on their ability to be friendly with little kids. Lots of people suck at that. I don't reject them wholesale I just don't bring my kids around them.

Same here, I have some friends without kids that will never have them and my daughter just doesn't come along!  I also have my best friend with no desire to have children and her mother lives vicariously through me and calls DD her grandbaby :-) 

Originally Posted by serenbat 

Intentional or not, how do you teach your children to be responsible for their action? Are they only responsible for certain things- like when they drive but nothing else? If your kids toys cause someone to fall in your home and they break a bone do you just say oh well?  I can think of numerous things- my mothers just had a neighbor's tree fall on her home- they had to pay for it (via insurance) but they had to take the responsibility even though they themselves didn't do it- act of nature.

Just wondering how you and others who feel this way square this.

How do I teach my daughter responsibility? Certainly not by humiliating others.  You make a best effort and of the person can't accept that, oh well.  Speaking of breaking a leg, I had a halloween themed birthday party when I turned 13.  My aunt's long time BF and his friends all helped to make a haunted house.  He decided to leave our yard to climb the neighbors tree and when we came around the back of the fence he jumped out to scare us - only he got stuck in the tire swing and broke his knee.  He sued the neighbors.  My family was asked to trestify in court as to what happened.  Day of the trial he never showed up and everything was dismissed.  But it had a longer lasting effect and led to their break up (after almost 10yrs) and some very hard feelings between the families.  What busniess was it of his to tresspass then blame that person for not looking out for his safety?  This is why burglars and would be home invaders are able to sue the families they are trying to burglrize if they happen to fall through a skylight.  This logic is flawed.  If I have a toy on the floor and YOU can't walk past without falling, well them I'm sorry buit I fail to see how I should be responsible for that.  Should we pad the walls and make people wear helmets as well?   And the same goes for owning things that are "too expensive to replace".  I believe in owning nice things over crap that breaks easily.  But stuff is stuff.  If you are that attached to inanimate objects you have bigger things to worry about. 

If my sincere apology and offer of help isn't good enough, then I can't see putting myself out there again for that "friend" who would clearly value my ability to buy them 'things' over my friendship.

[lmk1]

I don't think there's anything wrong with paying for something that your kid broke; it's part of cleaning up the mess....however, obviously these people seem to care more about materialistic things.  Having a "spare" stuffed animal is not like having a complete silverware setting.  Personally, I wouldn't even care if there was only one stuffed animal ... so what if it has markings on it?  It's not like you can't play with it anymore.  And in this situation, I do feel both sets of parents are responsible.  What if you left scissors laying around because your dd knew how to use them, and their dd cut up your couch with them.  At a certain age, I think you should not expect too much, and it's up to the host to make the other parent aware of any possible issues.  

However, this is different from intentionally destroying things or even taking responsibility as an adult.  We were staying with our friends, and dh wanted to bake something, so he pre-heated the oven without checking it.  Well our friends used their oven for storage when they weren't baking.  So they had their frying pan with the plastic handle in it, and it caught on fire.  It was a horrible mess that we cleaned up and we gave them a gift certificate to a store.  I can't imagine though if they kept bringing it up and making a point of not letting dh in their kitchen after that.  

On the other hand, I bought some nice double airbeds for my mom's apt, and my nephews (both teens) kept jumping on them when they visited even though they were asked many times to stop.  They broke both of them.  I was and still am upset with their parents that they did not replace them.  I know kids love jumping on things, but you know what, next time they came to visit, my mom went and bought new air mattresses for them - again double ones that are pretty expensive.  I think that my brother should have bought them.

My ds was always poking holes in my mom's tablecloth (from a dollar store), no matter what, he wouldn't stop....finally, one time we went to the store, I told him that I had $1 and that I was going to buy him a matchbox car, but instead we had to buy a new tablecloth for grandma...he helped pick one out and paid the cashier himself.  He actually felt very grownup taking responsibility for his actions, and he never poked holes in the tablecloth again.  I think it's good for kids to feel responsibility for their actions; but I think it's awful to hold it over their heads and never let them forget it.  And some things are so minor, that it just shows you how petty someone is.  

With their dd peeing on your couch, I can't believe her Mom didn't clean it up.  I feel sad for a 2 year old to be in a timeout for a pee accident.  

[pek64]

Originally Posted by MrsGregory 

I wonder if the other parents aren't behaving the way they are because they feel you didn't react sternly enough if you didn't shout your little one down over the marker.  Obviously you dealt with your daughter, but if they (your friends) give their daughter a time-out for a pee accident, and you are focused more on gentle discipline, perhaps it's you they are trying to shame with their crappy behavior.  I don't think this excuses them in the least, the thought just popped in and I decided to share it.

I think this is it, exactly. They would have punished their daughter, publicly. And therefore, if the "offender" wasn't punished publicly, obviously no action had been taken. It doesn't matter how it actually was handled, they wanted to see punishment, and are making sure they gey what they want by punishing socially. I would hesitate to remain friends, as I think this is the first of many attempts to parent your child, themselves. And it leads me back to my early response, I think both girls were doing the marking, and the host child knew she could get the other one blamed. These seem like very controlling parents, and it's only natural that there daughter would rebel, especially if she figured she could keep from being punished.