Civil discussion amongst non vax/ vax skeptical parents

[Jennyanydots]

It appears that our voices are being drowned out or silenced here at mdc, but this IS the "I'm Not Vaccinating" forum, so here goes! Maybe we can get a conversation started?

At a most basic level, I'm very concerned about vaccines and my youngest child, who, at 18 months, isn't vaxxed. I do think about tetanus, and I want to know more about my options with respect to that vaccine. Any thoughts?

Also, I worry about vaccines becoming compulsory at some point. As it stands, they pretty much are in the US- you can usually exempt your children if you jump through certain hoops, but in most places, vax are required for school attendance. In worry that the already rigid requirements will become even more so. I don't want to give my child drugs that I don't think he needs. Right away chicken pox and hep b come to mind when I think of ridiculous vaccines to mandate across the board.

Anyone else? What are your concerns, thoughts? How do we keep this conversation alive when it is being stamped out at every turn?
Edited by Jennyanydots - 12/28/12 at 11:16pm

[pek64]

I like this thread.

I, too, am concerned about tetanus. I'd prefer it to be available alone, though. And we don't know if my son had enough exposure to chicken pox to have immunity. He kind of, sort of, seemed sick after accidental exposure, but that was all. And he doesn't want to get a blood test to check.

Good luck with this thread!

[Jennyanydots]

Thanks, pek!

I guess we'll cross the cp bridge when DS's older. My two older kids were fully vaccinated before I realized I could refuse the shots, so we haven't dealt with these issues before. As a side note (and gratuitous attempt to bring up another issue), I have dealt with bullying from doctors when I've asked questions, however. You?

Some friends of ours swear their dr was able to give their (under 2yo) DD a tetanus diphtheria shot without pertussis. Could this be true? I thought the 3 parter was all we could access..?

And how about that thing in the Philippines, where tetanus vax was administered to women and girls of childbearing age and may have also contained agents that rendered some of those women infertile? What's up with that?

[japonica]

Sure, I'll join in.

We're strongly considering giving the dT to my DD (and perhaps DS) next month. We had at least two discussions with the GP. We hashed out my main concerns and issues (the aluminum adjuvant is a big one). He left it up to us and to call and schedule the appt when we had made up our minds.

So, why the dT? Both kids are active outdoors. My DD is digging in the sand and earth constantly at school and in the parks. I'm not so much concerned for when she's with me. I have a basic understanding of adequate wound care. I'm more worried that as they spend more and more time apart from me, at school full time and on excursions all over the place, they'll get a suspicious wound and some teacher will just slap a bandage on it.

As for the d portion. Yes, there was the case of diphtheria back in Queensland about a year ago. Seeing as the vaccine does not prevent colonisation with the bacteria nor transmission to susceptible individuals, then providing the kids with a base level of antitoxin against any opportunistic diphtheria bacteria their classmates may be bringing back with them from Indonesia is worth consideration. In discussions with the ped, we talked about how a full series of the dT should provide the protective levels we'd like.

We have no other plans for any other vaccines at present. Perhaps MMR before puberty. On our "no thanks" list are HPV, Hep B, pertussis, flu, chicken pox, IPV (unless they travel to Asia in high school).

Jenny...as far as I know, there's still a pediatric DT vaccine available in the States, so you don't need to do the DTaP if you're not inclined. The CDC or FDA should have a listing of current vaccines available.

I can't say anything about the tetanus vaccine and the infertility thing, sorry.

[naiystar]

Just as an fyi, the tetanus vaccines without pertussis contain thimerosal, which is a mercury based preservative.

[rachelsmama]

I like this thread a lot.

[kathymuggle]

I don't worry about tetanus.

I took a look at the info on smartvax on tetanus, and realised that pre-vaccine levels of tetanus (in the 1930's or 1940) was something like 1/250 000.  There was a lot more agriculture then; I suspect the rates today would be even lower. The few cases of tetanus that float around are usually found in elderly, drug users or diabetics.  In short, I don't the risks are very high.

Maybe we all have internal numbers about what is a safe risk and what is not, but a high of  1/250 000 just doesn't concern me.

Good luck with your decision!

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Thank you for starting this thread in this way, Jenny!  I'm a selective/delay mama who prefers reading and posting in the support forums. I love the idea of more active posts here in INV. 

My biggest concern (and here I suppose I am not staunchly on either side) is the timing for vaccine administration. I know some of the vaccine schedule is what it is because of the timing if early well-child visits. I suppose I can see why from a public health perspective one may want to capture those early well-child visits but it isn't the right choice for our family.  Also, when my DC #1 was young we lived in another country. They had a slightly different schedule than they have in the States. I suppose that also gave me pause (additional pause, because I had already had some).  

[kathymuggle]

I do worry about chicken pox.  I find it a very complicated issue to figure out.

I truly wish this vaccine was never made part of the schedule.  The increase in shingles is most probably connected to the decrease in wild CP floating around, and shingles is far worse than CP, I believe, and often recurrent.

Sadly, though, that ship has floated….most people do get the vax, that is the world we live in.

So - what are the choices?

Do we hope our young kids get CP, even though that means they might get shingles?  Or do we hope they do not get CP  (and there does not seem to be lots floating around, at least in this area) and thus avoid the shingles issue?  Of course, that opens them up to CP as they age, which is less pleasant in teens and adults (not great, but not horrific either).  It can be dangerous for the fetuses of pregnant women, though, and that is a concern.  

At this point in time, I am thinking this is a decision my youngest child (the only one who has not had wild CP) can make as she reaches adulthood.  

Edited by kathymuggle - 12/29/12 at 1:45pm

[Jennyanydots]

I was on board with vaxxing for polio and tetanus, diphtheria & pertussis when my older kids were small. Those all sounded scary and I had no problem believing my kids were in peril if we didn't get those vaccines. But chicken pox? That was where I first paused. The new spin on it just dumbfounded me. This was absolutely a no-big-deal childhood illness when I was a kid (and I'm in my 30s) but now I was being told it was a life threatening terror we must guard against. I balked, and I was told, "too bad- they have to have it or the can't go to school." The episode left a bad taste in my mouth, and it made me reevaluate the other vaccines on the schedule with a more jaded eye. Don't even get me started about hep b for newborns, most preposterous thing I've ever heard.

So this is my question, or gripe, I guess: there's an active thread in the d&d forum now where a very articulate and strident vax apologist is ranting that the diseases we vaccinate against are so deadly and the potential for vax reactions just pales in comparison... Why are supposedly concerned and intelligent people such as that poster unable or unwilling to look beyond a broad view of this issue? It's not all or nothing. You aren't anti vax because you say- hey, are all of these really necessary? I'd love to hear others' thoughts on this.

[Jennyanydots]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I do worry about chicken pox.  i find it a very complicated issue to figure out.

I truly wish this vaccine was never made part of the schedule.  The increase in shingles is most probably connected to the decrease in wild CP floating around, and shingles is far worse than CP, I believe, and often recurrent.

Sadly, though, that ship has floated….most people do get the vax, that is the world we live in.

So - what are the choice?

Do we hope our young kids get CP, even though that means they might get shingles?  Or do we hope they do not get CP  (and there does seem to be lots floating around, at least in this thread) and thus avoid the shingles issue?  Of course, that opens them up to CP as they age, which is less pleasant in teens and adults (not great, but not horrific either).  It can be dangerous for the fetuses of pregnant women, though, and that is a concern.  

At this point in time, I am thinking this is a decision my youngest child (the only one who has not had wild CP) can make as she reaches adulthood.  

We cross posted
Yes, you're right- now the cp issues is much more complicated BECAUSE of the vaccine. These drug happy, greedy, penny wise & pound foolish corporate big wigs have screwed with something they did not understand well enough, and it's had terrible consequences. What else? What next?

I haven't started looking for wild cp to expose DS to, but I prefer that idea to getting him the shot. I guess we have a little time to think about it.

[Jennyanydots]

Originally Posted by naiystar 

Just as an fyi, the tetanus vaccines without pertussis contain thimerosal, which is a mercury based preservative.

Ah, I knew there had to be a catch. Thanks.

[Chicharronita]

I'm very critical and frankly scared of vaccines, this despite the fact that I'm almost completely deaf in one ear from the mumps.

The mumps vaccine wasn't available back then. Like many children of the 1970s I got all the vaccines on schedule. I haven't had any since the 90s when I was fear-mongered into a tetanus shot.

My dd hasn't had any and won't have any. I was a little worried when she was younger, but when she got a moderate case of the CP a few years ago and sailed through it with just minor discomfort (with lots of rest, TLC and supplements), I realized I was perfectly capable of helping her deal with any health issues. 

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama 

My biggest concern (and here I suppose I am not staunchly on either side) is the timing for vaccine administration. I know some of the vaccine schedule is what it is because of the timing if early well-child visits. I suppose I can see why from a public health perspective one may want to capture those early well-child visits but it isn't the right choice for our family.

I can see this.  One of the main reasons they do so many shots in the first 6 months of life is around convenience and compliancy - they know parents make numerous well-baby visit in the early months (and may be more likely to let well baby visits slide as the children age).  It isn't a very sound scientific reason - is it?

For myself, even if I vaxxed, I would be inclined to wait until  3 plus for most vaccines, and spread them out.  

1.  the child might be able to verbalise if and how they are having a reaction 

2.  There are some studies showing early vaccines are linked to an increased chance of issues.  Hep B, newborn males and asthma is one, and this one looks at the relationship between DPT and asthma http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18207561

3.  I think medical decisions, when possible, should be the choice of the child.  I get this is not appropriate with pertussis and rota, but mumps, rubella, and to a lesser degree chicken pox and Hep. are fertility and sexually related.  A teen or adult women can decide if she wants a rubella shot if she has never had it before.  

4.  I would feel sick if I had multiple injections (and the CDC schedule has 2 month old babies have 5 injections in one day)  I am not sure turning a child into a pin cushion for convenience is appropriate.

Edited by kathymuggle - 12/29/12 at 3:08pm

[Jennyanydots]

I wonder if this stems from the same reasoning that brought us the no-anesthesia-during-circ policy. That somehow they don't really feel pain when they're very young. Or perhaps it's "ok" if a young child feels very ill after a round of shots, because they can't verbalize and so can't worry us with their feelings...

[sassyfirechick]

I started out with the idea I would select/delay vax.  DD didn't get anything in the hospital - Hep B was done at her first office visit.  After that she had 2 rounds of shots:  @2mos she was given a 5 way pentacel (DTaP-IPV-Hib), pneumococcal, and oral rotavirus.  I caved, I let the pedi smooth talk me into doing it all at once, and I cried for days with DD afterwards.  She went from sleeping 12hrs to up every 45mins (this lasted over a month before she would sleep for only 3hrs at a time), from a happy baby, to blood curdling, painful screaming for hours on end.  Her low grade fever never got above 100 but it took almost a month to subside.  Her bowels were a mess from blowouts to vomiting after nursing - something she never did. Slowly but surely she was back to herself.  At 4mos she came down with a mild cold - I like to think it remained mild bc of the Vit c and steam baths (DH brought the cold home, his lasted 2weeks, DD and I were better after 5 days).  I postponed her 4mo vaccines and took her in at 5mos.  That time I allowed only the pentacel (I still am in disbelief that this is the only form our pedi will carry in her practice).  Similar reactions occured, minus the bowel issues which I concluded came from the oral rotavirus.

Every reaction was documented and reportd to the ped and to VAERS.  At her 6mo appt, I was told I could do the 3rd pentacel - I almost lost it.  There was a student Dr in the room with the ped and I was very blunt that we would no longer be vaccinating.  I was given a long speech about the dangers of that decision, I figured it best to bite my tongue and couldn't wait to leave.

Right around that time I allowed DD to taste a few solids.  I knew dairy was an issues for her and had been avoiding it for quite some time myself while nursing her, but quickly found her to have a reaction to oats as well...a very bad one. 

Fast forward, DD is currently 14.5 mos, a beautiful (of course I'm biased!), happy, exceptionally bright little girl who never ceases to amaze me with the things she is capable of doing.  We're seeing an ND who's detoxing her from the DTaP and Hib - those she pinpointed as the trigger vaccines for the oat issue - and we're working to heal her gut to hopefully re-test oats at 18mos (ND thinks she will be fine at that point), and dairy soon after.  I have to not dwell too much on the issues she had from the vaxxes as it makes me agry to hear her pedi in my head telling me that everything was fine. 

I always knew I would refuse CP, MMR, and Guardasil, but coming here and learning all that I have we've become a non-vax family.  I however, am unfortunate to have a group of friends and family who are 99.9% pro-vax, pro-pharmaceutical....basically pro letting someone else decide what's best for them.  It can be incredibly tense when the conversation turns to sick kids.  Some of them aren't aware of our decisions, but I'd say the majority are, or at least they have some idea that we don't follow the herd.  Most are bothered by that.  One in particular who is in the process of getting her nursing doctorate is overly bothered by all of our decisions - from the not vaxxing, to using eco- friendly cleaners, to eating organic - it drives her up a wall!  I really don't know why unless she's somehow jealous that DD is never sick while her 4 are never NOT sick?! 

And one last thing - tetanus.  Doesn't scare me in the least bit.  It's rare, I'm always outside, always have been, I've lost count of the times I've gotten hurt outdoors, and I honestly can't say ANY of the injuries I've had in just shy of 30yrs have ever been qualifiable as a potential tetanus threat.  Sure I was vaxxed for it, but I won't ever booster again.  And that's our previously-vaxxed, now non-vax family in a nutshell!

[japonica]

Originally Posted by Jennyanydots 


Ah, I knew there had to be a catch. Thanks.

The product we're using in Australia does not have thimerosal. Just the aluminum, which is bad enough. I haven't looked in depth at all the ones on offer in the States--you seem to have more choice than we do. Perhaps I missed something and there might be one available without thimerosal. I could be mistaken. I do know you still have the option of a pediatric DT which was discontinued here back around 2006.

[japonica]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I do worry about chicken pox.  I find it a very complicated issue to figure out.

I truly wish this vaccine was never made part of the schedule.  The increase in shingles is most probably connected to the decrease in wild CP floating around, and shingles is far worse than CP, I believe, and often recurrent.

Sadly, though, that ship has floated….most people do get the vax, that is the world we live in.

So - what are the choices?

Do we hope our young kids get CP, even though that means they might get shingles?  Or do we hope they do not get CP  (and there does not seem to be lots floating around, at least in this area) and thus avoid the shingles issue?  Of course, that opens them up to CP as they age, which is less pleasant in teens and adults (not great, but not horrific either).  It can be dangerous for the fetuses of pregnant women, though, and that is a concern.  

At this point in time, I am thinking this is a decision my youngest child (the only one who has not had wild CP) can make as she reaches adulthood.  

I agree with this. Part of me is really frustrated at this "can't see the forest for the trees" thinking of those in public health. Okay, so the end goal is to supposedly eradicate the deadly chickenpox. In the meantime, they've left those of us in our 30s, 40s, and 50s wide open for shingles because of a lack of circulating varicella to maintain our immunity. And we're too young for a shingles vax. I guess we have to take one for the team, right? Two of my SILs have had shingles already. In their 40s! What was an illness of the elderly is becoming something for the 30 and 40 something crowd instead. One was quite ill and off work for months. 

You see, the whole "your choices affect my life" that gets tossed around goes both ways. As a result of vaccination, we have shifting epidemiology and serotype replacement. This affects my family.

[Jennyanydots]

Sassyfirechick, I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter's reactions. It must have been such a scary and confusing time for you. Glad she came through ok, and I hope her food issues resolve!

[Suvroc]

pek64 and japonica,

If you're considering diphtheria and tetanus vaccines, it might be good to check titers after vaccination to ensure adequate antibody response because a study published this year indicated that "A 2-fold increase in PFOS and PFOA concentrations at age 5 years was associated with odds ratios between 2.38 (95% CI, 0.89 to 6.35) and 4.20 (95% CI, 1.54 to 11.44) for falling below a clinically protective level of 0.1 IU/mL for tetanus and diphtheria antibodies at age 7 years." Here is a link to the study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22274686 and here is a link to a summary by the researcher http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOFFQ7cPAOM.