Civil discussion amongst non vax/ vax skeptical parents - Page 2

[japonica]

Thanks. Good to know. I think that's another whole area of research: the synergistic effects of environmental influences (ahem, contaminants) and vaccine effectiveness. 

[lanamommyphd07]

I'm kind of unschooly myself, and perhaps that feeds this general concept I have about vaccines...When DD is at a point of having offspring or is at a place of being able to decide her own medical moves...I will leave the door open to her to make her own health care decisions (even if this means she makes a well-informed decision to have a vax). Since that's another 10 years, perhaps there will be even more data to consider. I'm all about more data to consider.

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by Jennyanydots 

I wonder if this stems from the same reasoning that brought us the no-anesthesia-during-circ policy. That somehow they don't really feel pain when they're very young. Or perhaps it's "ok" if a young child feels very ill after a round of shots, because they can't verbalize and so can't worry us with their feelings...

One experience that caused me to hesitate about vaccines long before I had my dd happened when an acquaintance I worked with had her baby vaccinated.

I happened to visit them at home shortly after it had been done. The poor little thing (I think she was six months old) had a swollen red spot on her thigh that looked painful and kept crying a lot. 

But the mom didn't seem concerned at all. Her attitude really bothered me. It seemed like since doctors say that this is a "normal" reaction it meant she was off the hook about being concerned. I hope this acceptance of authority opinion is not normal. 

I fear for a society that accepts and condones infant genital mutilation, routine painful injections and giving children psychiatric meds for attention "problems."

[Jennyanydots]

Originally Posted by Chicharronita 

One experience that caused me to hesitate about vaccines long before I had my dd happened when an acquaintance I worked with had her baby vaccinated.

I happened to visit them at home shortly after it had been done. The poor little thing (I think she was six months old) had a swollen red spot on her thigh that looked painful and kept crying a lot. 

But the mom didn't seem concerned at all. Her attitude really bothered me. It seemed like since doctors say that this is a "normal" reaction it meant she was off the hook about being concerned. I hope this acceptance of authority opinion is not normal. 

I fear for a society that accepts and condones infant genital mutilation, routine painful injections and giving children psychiatric meds for attention "problems."

Sadly, that acceptance does seem normal, in my experience. I think most people I know are happy to take whatever advice an authority figure gives, because it frees them from having to think about issues themselves.

[pek64]

Originally Posted by Jennyanydots 

Sadly, that acceptance does seem normal, in my experience. I think most people I know are happy to take whatever advice an authority figure gives, because it frees them from having to think about issues themselves.

When my mother and I were disagreeing on a parenting issue involving my son, she told me I should just do what the experts say to do, because he was just going to tell me how I had ruined his life anyway, so this way I would have someone to blame. My husband worried a lot about having an expert to blame if a decision was wrong, too. I'd rather make my best decision, and accept responsibility for it.

[Christine08]

Thank you for this thread! It seems more and more difficult to find support for making the choice not to vaccinate. My oldest son (4.5) had 2 Dtap vaccinations and then developed eczema-like issues with his skin (although sensitive skin runs in our families, I believe it may have increased the severity). My youngest son (2.5) has not had any vaccinations. Both of their grandmothers had tetanus boosters recently and developed pretty severe reactions (nerve issues,etc). I am now very reluctant to have my boys receive any more vaccines even though I had thought that I would just delay until they were older.

[MissCee]

Thank you so much for this thread. My family is the only non-vax family I know of and it has been so hard with no support :( DS is 17 months old and has never been vaxxed, and most likely never will be. Like Lana said, DH and I will explain to him when he's old enough why we chose not to vaccinate him and if he decides that vaccinations are what he wants than at least he is at a proper age to make such a choice. I always love the saying "You can always get vaccinated, but you can't take back a vaccination." It's been my mantra to get me through raising a non-vaxxed child!

[Ajbaby]

It's not just people in their 30's, 40's, and 50's getting shingles. I am 27, last year at the age of 26!?! I broke out in a mild case of shingles. I'm lucky it was mild and they didn't bother me too much since I had a 5 month old nursling.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by Ajbaby 

It's not just people in their 30's, 40's, and 50's getting shingles. I am 27, last year at the age of 26!?! I broke out in a mild case of shingles. I'm lucky it was mild and they didn't bother me too much since I had a 5 month old nursling.

There is a boy at the library who had shingles and he is 12.  12!!!!   I have another patron who has had it twice - she is about 50.  

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

There is a boy at the library who had shingles and he is 12.  12!!!!   I have another patron who has had it twice - she is about 50.  

I know shingles is more common in the elderly anyway. My mom is in her 70's and developed a terrible case of the shingles last year. It was really bad and she had endured almost 1 year of post-herpatic neuralgia. She had not gotten he shingles vaccine, and has declined it again despite her experience. (with no input from me - totally her call). I will say however that if wild CP was circulating as it used to and she had had multiple exposures over the years, it is very likely (I know not guaranteed) she never would have gotten shingles at all - so yeah I'm pretty bitter about the whole shingles situation!!

[SweetSilver]

I've become more comfortable with my decision not to give my otherwise-fully-vaxxed daughters their booster shots.  

The doctor's office has been very supportive, at least this doesn't seem to be a hot-button issue for them, and for that I am thankful.  I have been sweating over this, thinking and rethinking, and I look at the form I am to initial for the vaxxes I am refusing, and all the shots that were due to catch her up were ones that I don't worry about anyhow.  She was not due for another booster of DTaP until 11 (though that might change in the wake of the WA state outbreaks), meningitis not until 11.  I felt a bit silly for having worried about this.

I sorely wish I could rewind the clock and been more selective about the vaxxes we chose when the girls were infants.  While I don't think I would have been entirely non-vax, I find I have more in common with non-vaxxers than not (vax-skeptical, I guess).

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by lanamommyphd07 

I'm kind of unschooly myself, and perhaps that feeds this general concept I have about vaccines...When DD is at a point of having offspring or is at a place of being able to decide her own medical moves...I will leave the door open to her to make her own health care decisions (even if this means she makes a well-informed decision to have a vax). Since that's another 10 years, perhaps there will be even more data to consider. I'm all about more data to consider.

hey Sweetsilver……another thread for another time, perhaps?  I think Pek is an USer as well.  

While I know many non-vaxxers are not USers, I wonder if many USers are non-vaxxers or at least delayed (until the child can decide)?  There is a strong belief in USing that it is their bodies, their interests, their life…it is hard to reconcile giving or making a child, particularly an older one, have a non-essential vaccine with USing.  

[SweetSilver]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Originally Posted by lanamommyphd07 

I'm kind of unschooly myself, and perhaps that feeds this general concept I have about vaccines...When DD is at a point of having offspring or is at a place of being able to decide her own medical moves...I will leave the door open to her to make her own health care decisions (even if this means she makes a well-informed decision to have a vax). Since that's another 10 years, perhaps there will be even more data to consider. I'm all about more data to consider.

hey Sweetsilver……another thread for another time, perhaps?  I think Pek is an USer as well.  

While I know many non-vaxxers are not USers, I wonder if many USers are non-vaxxers or at least delayed (until the child can decide)?  There is a strong belief in USing that it is their bodies, their interests, their life…it is hard to reconcile giving or making a child, particularly an older one, have a non-essential vaccine with USing.  

Good morning, kathy!  That wasn't my quote, but I would agree that it would be an interesting thread.......

[MeepyCat]

Originally Posted by japonica 

I agree with this. Part of me is really frustrated at this "can't see the forest for the trees" thinking of those in public health. Okay, so the end goal is to supposedly eradicate the deadly chickenpox. In the meantime, they've left those of us in our 30s, 40s, and 50s wide open for shingles because of a lack of circulating varicella to maintain our immunity. And we're too young for a shingles vax. I guess we have to take one for the team, right? Two of my SILs have had shingles already. In their 40s! What was an illness of the elderly is becoming something for the 30 and 40 something crowd instead. One was quite ill and off work for months. 

You see, the whole "your choices affect my life" that gets tossed around goes both ways. As a result of vaccination, we have shifting epidemiology and serotype replacement. This affects my family.

In re:  "deadly chickenpox", the material I have seen from public health authorities on the CP vax is that one of the things they are specifically trying to do is eliminate chicken pox as an economic burden for parents.  Because of the amount of time that a child with CP can't be in group care, chicken pox is a disease that parents sometimes lose their jobs over.  Eliminating CP helps reduce childhood poverty.  It is my understanding that that's why it's on the vaccination schedule.  (Better family leave and health care policies in the U.S. would do even more to reduce childhood poverty.  I'd love to see more of those.)

In regards to shingles - shingles is a recrudescence of chicken pox that remains dormant in the body after initial infection.  If you never get CP, you can't get shingles either.  A more widely applicable shingles vaccine would be a help here, but I'm not at all sure that increasing the exposure to CP virus in the general population would cut down on cases of shingles in adults.  The opposite seems highly possible.

[kathymuggle]

The above is a graph of what they expect to happen to shingles in the next 65 years.  Note the upswing due to CP vaccination, and the 60 years or so it will take to return to "without vaccination" levels.   http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X03008776

And 5, 10 and 15 years post lincesure in different age groups.

_______________________

Meepycat, I am sure you understand that using one vaccine to fix the issues another vaccine created is galling.  Some people may choose to do it anyways to avoid the pain of shingles, but people can still be ticked off that promoting CP vaccination for convenience (when it really should be a medical decision) has led to other medical issues. 

Edited by kathymuggle - 12/31/12 at 12:19pm

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by MeepyCat 

In re:  "deadly chickenpox", the material I have seen from public health authorities on the CP vax is that one of the things they are specifically trying to do is eliminate chicken pox as an economic burden for parents.  Because of the amount of time that a child with CP can't be in group care, chicken pox is a disease that parents sometimes lose their jobs over.  Eliminating CP helps reduce childhood poverty.  It is my understanding that that's why it's on the vaccination schedule.  (Better family leave and health care policies in the U.S. would do even more to reduce childhood poverty.  I'd love to see more of those.)

In regards to shingles - shingles is a recrudescence of chicken pox that remains dormant in the body after initial infection.  If you never get CP, you can't get shingles either.  A more widely applicable shingles vaccine would be a help here, but I'm not at all sure that increasing the exposure to CP virus in the general population would cut down on cases of shingles in adults.  The opposite seems highly possible.

I'm referring to those people that have had the wild virus only. If one had had the wild CP like I did, periodic exposure to wild cp acts as a natural booster and would absolutely cut down on cases of shingles as an adult. The fact that wild CP is not circulating like it used to is one of the reasons shingles is being seen in younger people.

As for the CP vaccine being created to ease the economic burden on parents who work, I was aware of that and IMO that is the most ridiculous reason to make a vaccine mandatory or add it to the schedule. That is not a concern for me. I would much rather take 2 weeks to care for my child at home. I would not loose my job. I understand this may be of concern for other parents so they should be able to choose that vaccine for that reason if they wish to, but to apply it across the board is unneccesary. 

[lanamommyphd07]

I was kind of surprised about this--the CP vax came out and was touted as "great for the working parent!" but most peds were like, "uh, whatever..CP is really no biggie". But then, a few years have gone by and it's like "your child will die from CP if you don't get this vax". I'm curious as to how the jump occurred! How did the fear spread so fast?

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by lanamommyphd07 

I was kind of surprised about this--the CP vax came out and was touted as "great for the working parent!" but most peds were like, "uh, whatever..CP is really no biggie". But then, a few years have gone by and it's like "your child will die from CP if you don't get this vax". I'm curious as to how the jump occurred! How did the fear spread so fast?

maybe it had to do with when it became a school requirement? I know the vaccine was licensed in 1995 but not recommended for school entry until 1999. 

It just seems like whatever is "mandatory" for school is what gets cited as being a deadly disease. 

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by MeepyCat 

In re:  "deadly chickenpox", the material I have seen from public health authorities on the CP vax is that one of the things they are specifically trying to do is eliminate chicken pox as an economic burden for parents.  Because of the amount of time that a child with CP can't be in group care, chicken pox is a disease that parents sometimes lose their jobs over.  Eliminating CP helps reduce childhood poverty.  It is my understanding that that's why it's on the vaccination schedule.  (Better family leave and health care policies in the U.S. would do even more to reduce childhood poverty.  I'd love to see more of those.)

In regards to shingles - shingles is a recrudescence of chicken pox that remains dormant in the body after initial infection.  If you never get CP, you can't get shingles either.  A more widely applicable shingles vaccine would be a help here, but I'm not at all sure that increasing the exposure to CP virus in the general population would cut down on cases of shingles in adults.  The opposite seems highly possible.

The week or two that a parent has to take off of work to care for a child with chicken pox is certainly significant in the US, where there is no mandated paid parental leave, and the federally mandated family leave is unpaid, and also not available to those who are self-employed.

However, that week or two is NOTHING compared with the cost and time involved in caring for a child who has suffered a serious reaction to a vaccine.  That risk increases when shots are administered together--which is what is currently done.

It's great that the public health authorities want to spare parents the inconvenience and financial burden of caring for a child with chicken pox, but they are being extremely short-sighted in not realizing that the cost  (in terms of severe vaccine reactions) is actually too high.

I've met plenty of parents whose children had severe vaccine reactions.  Not ONE of them feels that their child's reaction is an acceptable sacrifice to 
"protect the herd."  NOT ONE.

And that's not even considering the possibility that herd immunity is not nearly what it's cracked up to be.  That's assuming that herd immunity works (which it clearly doesn't, in the case of pertussis).

Oh, and you can get shingles even if you've never had chicken pox and are fully vaccinated for chicken pox. In fact, the number of children developing shingles has skyrocketed since the introduction of the chicken pox vaccine, and some experts believe that the chicken pox vaccine makes shingles more likely rather than less.

[elizawill]

Originally Posted by lanamommyphd07 

I was kind of surprised about this--the CP vax came out and was touted as "great for the working parent!" but most peds were like, "uh, whatever..CP is really no biggie". But then, a few years have gone by and it's like "your child will die from CP if you don't get this vax". I'm curious as to how the jump occurred! How did the fear spread so fast?

regardless of the debate regarding vaccine necessity or safety, we can all agree that vaccinations are an industry that produce big bucks. IMO, the propaganda that chicken pox will save your child from death and deformity, etc. is the platform that sells it.  

my daughter is 11 & has never been vaxed for CP and has never had it. i had been struggling if i should get her the vaccine when she's 12 or not.  as i began to research more and more about that decision for her, i am convinced now even more than before that we will continue to not vax here.