Desperately trying to get 2.5yo to bed ~stretched beyond my limits, please help! - Page 2

[Mom79]

Hey Everybody, I just joined this forum specifically looking for some help with my seriously sleep-deprived 3 year old. I'm going crazy! We have been dealing with these sleep struggles for about a year and I don't know where else to turn. After talking with my husband until we are both blue in the face, we have decided it's a 3 pronged problem. First, she's just very very stubborn and would stay up and play forever if allowed to do so; second, she is easily over stimulated and has a lot of trouble settling down and third, she is in such a state of over-tiredness that it has become almost biologically impossible for her to fall asleep. Does anyone have any suggestions?!?! We have tried everything we can think of. We have a very calming nighttime routine, which includes calming music while she takes a lavender and chamomile infused bath, warm milk, and bedtime stories. We've also tried Tart Cherry Juice, Calms Forte, Serenite jr., and the Nighty Night Video...  I have also read The No Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers. But without fail, she puts up a fight and goes to bed screaming almost every night. It does get better sometimes and she will go more willingly or with only a few minutes of crying, but then after about 4 or 5 good days, the monster rears its ugly head again. I've talked to her doctor, who isn't much help and just keeps saying that my daughter is strong-willed and to keep at it. Do any of you have any suggestions or know of anything I haven't thought of? Please help!

[P.J.]

Originally Posted by Mom79 

Hey Everybody, I just joined this forum specifically looking for some help with my seriously sleep-deprived 3 year old. I'm going crazy! We have been dealing with these sleep struggles for about a year and I don't know where else to turn. After talking with my husband until we are both blue in the face, we have decided it's a 3 pronged problem. First, she's just very very stubborn and would stay up and play forever if allowed to do so; second, she is easily over stimulated and has a lot of trouble settling down and third, she is in such a state of over-tiredness that it has become almost biologically impossible for her to fall asleep. Does anyone have any suggestions?!?! We have tried everything we can think of. We have a very calming nighttime routine, which includes calming music while she takes a lavender and chamomile infused bath, warm milk, and bedtime stories. We've also tried Tart Cherry Juice, Calms Forte, Serenite jr., and the Nighty Night Video...  I have also read The No Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers. But without fail, she puts up a fight and goes to bed screaming almost every night. It does get better sometimes and she will go more willingly or with only a few minutes of crying, but then after about 4 or 5 good days, the monster rears its ugly head again. I've talked to her doctor, who isn't much help and just keeps saying that my daughter is strong-willed and to keep at it. Do any of you have any suggestions or know of anything I haven't thought of? Please help!

Question: did you only read the book or did you really take the time to answer all the worksheets and keep sleep logs and routine logs and plan out and implement a new routine? Because I found that it helped me tremendously to do all that. I didn't care that it was a lot of work, I was fed up and desperate. The writing it all out and observing over several days helped me feel more in control again, and gave me an inner direction. I believe our son has an easier time falling into line with our new program because I feel more confident. Before I felt so frustrated and lost, and I found the book gave me renewed hope and implementing the ideas with care gave me direction I was so lacking before. I think our previous lack of direction opened up this space for our boy to rebel and put up a huge stink. If you've been having these issues for more than a year it may take a couple months of consistency and still some setbacks for the new routine to really take effect. I have found the consistency, unwavering strict consistency, has really helped. We are still in the first month of our new routine and I have had to cancel plans and rearrange plans to make sure we are home and following our plan every evening at the same time. I know once we're more used to it, we can skip a night ot be more flexible....but the first month or maybe in your case months, you need to just sort of cancel everything else and make this your first priority.

I did talk to his pediatrician, who is a homeopath, and she prescribed using Chamomilla (homeopathic pellets) for him, to soothe his upset energy. That doesn't mean it would work for your child but we have been giving it to him every day for a couple weeks now. We have also been giving him normal sleep tea (with valerian and hops), which he actually loves and will drink maybe 1/3 a cup every evening. I know it's not a long term solution but for this transition month into getting into the new routine and earlier bedtime, I want to use it. Also: he falls asleep these days around 8:45 or 9:00.....which is a lot better than 10 or 11, but still I was hoping for a bit earlier and at least for now, it's not happening. Even after lights out it can take him up to 30 minutes or more before he evens stops fidgeting and physically calms down, and only then can even start to fall asleep which can take another 10-30 mins.

It reminds me of a tip which is helping us: he was rebelling and screaming about lights out and now what I do....the last part of our routine is I tell him a story. I start with just the night light on, but then after a few minutes get up to turn it off. He usually tries to protest, but I intentionally do that at an interesting part of the story and as soon as he starts to complain I say "hey hey hey! but wait!!! Hey listen!!! It's the most important part of the story!!! Don't you want to hear how.......etc..." and it almost always distracts him and he forgets about the light going off!!!!  BTW I was an awful storyteller but in a couple short weeks of making up my own stories every night, I can say I've gotten way better!!

Best of luck!

[Mom79]

Thanks for responding ! About a year ago, when these sleep problems first emerged, I read the book and charted her sleep for a while. At first, the main problem we were having was that my daughter was waking through out the night all of a sudden. I used a lot of the tips from the book and and the night waking slowly faded- a more consistent and calming routine, more exercise, less liquid more bed, a bedtime snack...  A few months later it started up again, and there was just no rhyme or reason to it. I finally just caved and I stopped trying to change it, and just got up with her (usually only once a night and she would go back to sleep after 30 minutes or so...)

Anyway, now the problem is that she will not go to bed at all. Nap times have just turned into her running around her room and playing for 2 hours. Then by bedtime, she is such a tired mess that of course we have another huge battle. She will finally fall asleep around 9 or 10 and then wakes anywhere from 4 am to 6am. She gets so overtired that we really can't leave the house because she's pretty much impossible to deal with. Looking back, I think moving her to  a big girl bed made it go from bad to worse.

Now I am reading "Sleepless in America," which is helping a lot. Like you said, just getting some direction helps tremendously because you get so buried in the chaos. I've been charting her sleep and doing several things to help set her internal clock like getting outside first thing in the morning. And I agree with your advice on consistency. We tend to stick with something until she starts to sleep well and then we let it slide again. What gets us is that she's always changing, so what works one night may not work next week. For example, we always read stories but she started getting bored with that and running around the room looking for toys. So, we started making up stories to keep her interested in hopes that she would sit still and settle down. But next thing you know, she wants to tell us a story, which at the time seems harmless and cute. But before we know it she is completely running the bedtime routine again- demanding her books, then tell her a story, then she wants to tell me a story...and countless other requests in order to stall. Its like she finds ways to poke holes in our routine... 

I would also like to try the chamomile, so I think I'll call her doctor about that. If we could just get her caught up on her sleep, we would have a fighting chance. But as long as she stays in this overtired state,it seems impossible. I'm thinking the chamomile might hep us when we get stuck. Thanks again for responding. It really helps to know others are dealing with the same issues. 

[newmamalizzy]

Originally Posted by Mom79 

Thanks for responding ! About a year ago, when these sleep problems first emerged, I read the book and charted her sleep for a while. At first, the main problem we were having was that my daughter was waking through out the night all of a sudden. I used a lot of the tips from the book and and the night waking slowly faded- a more consistent and calming routine, more exercise, less liquid more bed, a bedtime snack...  A few months later it started up again, and there was just no rhyme or reason to it. I finally just caved and I stopped trying to change it, and just got up with her (usually only once a night and she would go back to sleep after 30 minutes or so...)

Anyway, now the problem is that she will not go to bed at all. Nap times have just turned into her running around her room and playing for 2 hours. Then by bedtime, she is such a tired mess that of course we have another huge battle. She will finally fall asleep around 9 or 10 and then wakes anywhere from 4 am to 6am. She gets so overtired that we really can't leave the house because she's pretty much impossible to deal with. Looking back, I think moving her to  a big girl bed made it go from bad to worse.

Now I am reading "Sleepless in America," which is helping a lot. Like you said, just getting some direction helps tremendously because you get so buried in the chaos. I've been charting her sleep and doing several things to help set her internal clock like getting outside first thing in the morning. And I agree with your advice on consistency. We tend to stick with something until she starts to sleep well and then we let it slide again. What gets us is that she's always changing, so what works one night may not work next week. For example, we always read stories but she started getting bored with that and running around the room looking for toys. So, we started making up stories to keep her interested in hopes that she would sit still and settle down. But next thing you know, she wants to tell us a story, which at the time seems harmless and cute. But before we know it she is completely running the bedtime routine again- demanding her books, then tell her a story, then she wants to tell me a story...and countless other requests in order to stall. Its like she finds ways to poke holes in our routine... 

I would also like to try the chamomile, so I think I'll call her doctor about that. If we could just get her caught up on her sleep, we would have a fighting chance. But as long as she stays in this overtired state,it seems impossible. I'm thinking the chamomile might hep us when we get stuck. Thanks again for responding. It really helps to know others are dealing with the same issues. 

On the off chance you haven't already considered this - is the bedtime that you're shooting for the same bedtime that she used to have when she actually napped during nap time?  If she's not napping at all anymore, and waking up really early, you may want to shoot for having her asleep at (duh-duh-duh) SIX!  That's when my early-rising no-napper goes to bed.  Ridiculous!!!  But gets her the appropriate amount of sleep, and I'll do anything for that. 

Also, if she's not napping, you may want to try switching to some sort of engaged quiet time so that she's actual resting a bit mid-day. 

[P.J.]

Mom79, I hear ya on the poking holes in the routine. It can be maddening!

We are weeks into our new routine and it still is going well, but sometimes he still protests loudly at lights out, or stalls in a million creative ways. But mostly he's out by 8:45 latest.

My big complaint is that he obviously still needs a nap but it is hopeless trying to get him down. He often won't even sleep in the car mid-day anymore. But yet he gets so cranky by evening and at preschool on most days he still naps! And then when he doesn't nap it means we can't go out in the afternoon for fear of him crashing on the way home (around 5pm) which is too early for bedtime but way too late for a nap. Lizzy I know what you mean about 6:00 and he gets real tired around then...but our problem is his Papa can't get home from work any earlier than 6:30. In fact to fit into our new bedtime routine he is making an effort to be home by then...he used to regularly come home at 7:00. On the nights he has other plans and doesn't come home until after DS is asleep, it is easier in a way. But DS needs his Papa time in the evenings so it just has to be that way. Otherwise I wonder too if his natural bedtime would be way way earlier.

I have also become really tired of the night wakings. He's never up long but almost every night he wakes once around 2am and then again around 5. At 2 he goes back to sleep very quickly but at 5 I have to crawl into his bed with him. He used to STTN as a baby...I so wasn't expecting this!! He chose to switch to sleeping in his own bed, which was great, but since then the night waking began. I even try to take him into my bed at 2am to avoid having to get up again at 5....but he refuses! I know I shouldn't complain, we are thrilled he made that transition on his own and very easily....but there certainly has been a price and I am getting less sleep now!
 

[Mom79]

Originally Posted by newmamalizzy 

On the off chance you haven't already considered this - is the bedtime that you're shooting for the same bedtime that she used to have when she actually napped during nap time?  If she's not napping at all anymore, and waking up really early, you may want to shoot for having her asleep at (duh-duh-duh) SIX!  That's when my early-rising no-napper goes to bed.  Ridiculous!!!  But gets her the appropriate amount of sleep, and I'll do anything for that. 

Also, if she's not napping, you may want to try switching to some sort of engaged quiet time so that she's actual resting a bit mid-day. 

You know, we haven't tried to get her down that early... When she has no nap at all, we usually try for 6:30 in hopes that she's asleep by 7, but she still manages to stay up until 8 or 9 either screaming or crying or stalling somehow. I think I'm just scared she'll wake even earlier but sometimes this stuff is counter intuitive . We will try for 6:00 and see what happens. Sometimes something as simple as 30 minutes can make all the difference, but you get so frustrated and overwhelmed that you forget the simple things! 

I am really hoping that the no napping is just a phase. I know that she still needs it, but if it continues, I will implement quiet time. We actually tried for a few days and gave her our portable DVD player with Cinderella playing. She loved it, but then started becoming obsessed with watching TV and movies and of course began demanding it at bedtime too. And I think all the screen time may be too stimulating to her brain. But I just can't think of anything else that would make her sit quietly for an hour or two. Any suggestions on that?