Journeying towards ethical eating while getting along with others - Page 3

[mammal_mama]

Oops, duplicate

[mammal_mama]

Oops again

[mammal_mama]

and again

[mammal_mama]

and again

[pek64]

Those who slaughter animals must have a certain callousness in order to be able to do it. Since that is their normal, they may be confused as to why any one else would have a different normal. If you can generally avoid this woman, you may be able to join and enjoy this group as a family. If not, I think you should pass on it. I worked with someone who hunted, and butchering would occasionally come up in conversations when how it related to the original topic was not obvious. Some people, not all who hunt or slaughter, are just like that. It's unlikely you will change them. They seem determined to convert everyone they meet to their way of thinking.

[pek64]

Editor must be malfunctioning. Duplicate.

[pek64]

And triplicate.

[mammal_mama]

Well, I have recently gotten to know another woman who raises chickens and sometimes slaughters and eats them, and she has never, ever come across as callous about it.                                                  

[pek64]

It is an individual thing. I knew another man who hunted and was not callous, either. It's just that those who are like the woman you described and the one hunter I worked with are that way. It's the way they are, not a result of what is said to them. Just my experience.

[mammal_mama]

I guess it's like that saying that the same fire that melts the butter, hardens the egg.

[mammal_mama]

Update: We've been back two more times, and everything has been fine. I was actually impressed last week when another child bit one of this woman's children, and I could tell the other mom was feeling really bad, and this woman said really nice things about how one of her children who is now grown used to bite, too, and she started putting a chew toy around his neck so he could chomp down on that whenever he wanted to bite something, and that worked for him. So I think that overall, she's a very nice person.

And both my dd's really like going, so we are joining.

Thanks so much for all the great advice!

[journeymom]

I just finished reading this thread, MM, and I hope it's not too late to add,  you might check out Call of the Mild: Learning to Hunt My Own Dinner

http://www.amazon.com/Call-Mild-Learning-Hunt-Dinner/dp/1455500747/ref=pd_sim_b_2

When Lily Raff McCaulou traded in an indie film production career in New York for a reporting job in central Oregon, she never imagined that she'd find herself picking up a gun and learning to hunt. She'd been raised as a gun-fearing environmentalist and an animal lover, and though a meat-eater, she'd always abided by the principle that harming animals is wrong. But Raff McCaulou's perspective shifted when she began spending weekends fly-fishing and weekdays interviewing hunters for her articles, realizing that many of them were more thoughtful about animals and the environment than she was.

So she embarked upon the project of learning to hunt from square one. From attending a Hunter Safety course designed for children to field dressing an elk and serving it for dinner, she explores the sport of hunting and all it entails, and tackles the big questions surrounding one of the most misunderstood American practices and pastimes. Not just a personal memoir, this book also explores the role of the hunter in the twenty-first century, the tension (at times artificial) between hunters and environmentalists, and new models of sustainable and ethical food procurement.

[mammal_mama]

That does sound fascinating, journeymom!

[marsupial-mom]

Mammal-mama,

I haven't read the entire thread (just the first page) but I wanted to chime in on a few things. I chose to go vegetarian when I was 6. My mom (a poor single mother with 2 children) agreed to a compromise and the three of us became pescatarians. Our journey continued and a few years later we were vegetarian. And later (much later) vegan.

Overall I think my childhood was fine. I learned the essentials of being a vegetarian or vegan: how to cook for myself, how to ask for what I need at restaurants, how to find good veg options. But looking back I do wish my mom hadn't spent so much time trying to be "normal" and trying to "fit in" with a meat-eating society. She placed a very high value on "not rocking the boat" too much and on being "mainstream" so that we wouldn't be outright dismissed for our vegetarianism and our interest in animal rights. But I never learned how to converse with animal-eaters truly honestly. Her method was basically just "don't talk too much about it" with an occasional slip-up.

What I'm saying is that I think I would have benefited from more interaction with the veg community. I needed more support. I needed to see how others interacted with animal-eaters, not just my mom. I needed to know about the entire animal movement - to know that in big cities there were lots of people like me, lots of veg/AR things going on. I went to college without knowing there were internships and jobs in the field of animal rights!

Now I have a son and we're raising him vegan so I will have to deal with all the struggles my mom dealt with and I'm sure in 20 years my son will have his own complaints. We all just "wing it" I guess.

[mtiger]

Originally Posted by pek64 

Those who slaughter animals must have a certain callousness in order to be able to do it.

I disagree. My daughter's b/f's son and his family all hunt. And they do not buy any meat - they eat only what they have taken. And they use ALL of the animal, and are respectful of what the animal provides. Nothing wrong with that, IMO.

[rightkindofme]

Originally Posted by mtiger 

I disagree. My daughter's b/f's son and his family all hunt. And they do not buy any meat - they eat only what they have taken. And they use ALL of the animal, and are respectful of what the animal provides. Nothing wrong with that, IMO.

In the next couple of years I will build a chicken coop. I will eat the chickens I raise. I intend to be very nice to them before I eat them. Humanely raised meat tastes better.

For now I just mortgage body parts in order to afford meat that other people raise humanely. It's not a choice everyone gets to make because money is a harsh limiting factor.

[mammal_mama]

marsupial-mom -- I really like the idea of helping dd get involved with animal rights groups!

[meemee]

just be careful about animal rights groups. in our city they are pretty militant and are not usually sensitive to children's level - like your woman leader. i had to remove my dd from one group because they were so 'one sided'. 

[mammal_mama]

I'll keep that in mind. I'm actually really interested in joining the Green Party in our city -- but just never seem to get to the meetings. I think it might be something dd'd enjoy doing with me.

[P.J.]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

I am not being argumentative but I don't get this.

Why should children not be burdened by knowing this? Burden being your word (not mine). I really don't understand this.

We are flesh eaters, that aside, from a very early age I have shown/instilled where are diet comes from (we see our food before and after)- so I'm really confused here. I have family that grew up on farms, they saw slandering from a very early age, my children have know this, we have had an ongoing conversation since early childhood but IMO by age 12 a child should know. Maybe I am missing something but I don't get this.

Same way if you are vegan and choose to use non-animal products in your daily life (clothing-leather, etc), I would think that the conversation about synthetics and their impact on the environment would also be topic for discussion and knowledge a child should be regularly exposed to- this ins't judgment, it's information.

ETA- we talk about all our food, not just "meats" - we talk about how things are grown, where they come from, why we by what where, etc. - money regarding our diet is also an ongoing from a very young age topic as well

If you are getting assistance (depending on the state) you can sometimes use the Access at farms/farm markets and make other non-comerrical store choices.

As the other poster mentioned if she can not get eggs (to her standards) she doesn't eat them - cheap food doesn't make it good and this has nothing to do with just meats, intake need for consumption as to not starve is one thing but also it is sometimes wise to opt for better one item vs several of less expensive - many do with ethically/organic meats - less vs non (be it standard or organic, etc)

Can you also give a little info- something seems to be missing here for me- what type of group is this? How does slandering chickens just come up- is this a food related activity? When I think of food related topics, I would think you will find all types of people with all types of diets and opinions on eating flesh and should prepare for that.

It might be wise to discuss that others will not share her thoughts and discuss how to best proceed when faced with conflicting view points, this goes for other children who may be more blunt in asking her direct questions on this and other topics.

With any topic (religion or other hot button topics) it best - IMO to prepare the child for what they may face. I frankly can see those her own age asking her more questions and having strong opinions and voicing them to her, maybe children who were there and saw what happened. 

I agree with you that a 12 year old should be well aware of where her food and other products she uses come from.

However, it all depends on age and we need to present our kids with age-appropriate information. Not only considering what their brains can actually process and understand, but also what their little delicate hearts can hold as far as painful and deeply upsetting and traumatic facts.

I am vegetarian and my son is 2 1/2. So far I haven't told him anything really, except that eggs come from chickens and beef was once a cow, that type thing....but even that I doubt his two year old brain can fully comprehend. So far he hasn't asked any questions. I am also not sure what to present to him when. But I can tell you that I will hold off for quite some years until I tell him about factory farms and the real torture that goes on...that kind of thing is traumatic even for me to think about, much less what it can do to a child's inner world. For his early childhood I feel it's enough to tell him that I don't eat animal flesh because I love animals. I am not even sure when he will make the connection that the animal is killed. It all worries me because I don't want to unnecessarily traumatize him, yet he will need to know these things. I want those things to inform his own decision whether to eat meat or not....but it's very hard to know what to tell them when.

So what I am saying in a long-winded way is that we need to be careful what we tell our children when. A small child, IMO is not ready to hear about all the gory details of animal slaughter. At least not in the urban world I live in and the way most animals are slaughtered. Twelve is definitely old enough, but younger than, IDK, maybe 8 or 9, maybe with some kids 6 or 7.....I don't think so.