Journeying towards ethical eating while getting along with others - Page 4

[mammal_mama]

I should add that at least one other parent, who has smaller children than mine, wasn't too happy about the way this woman went on and on about the chicken slaughtering and got graphic about it.

Also, when we went back the second time, another mom asked me how dd was doing with regard to that incident, and she said that some of them had talked after we left, and they were concerned that after the way the conversation just went on and on, we might not be coming back. So I get the impression that if she'd continued on the same track, others would have supported us by asking her to stop.

But as I've already said, we've had positive interactions with her since that time, and I really think it may just be a difference in semantics. I think she sees humane treatment of animals as treating them just like they are human beings, which is probably actually similar to the view of many animal rights activists. So she said you treat chickens "chickenly."

We may be at the point someday ourselves of having a much stricter definition of what it means to treat animals humanely, but for now we personally agree with the definition at the following link:

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=humaneness

We still eat animals and we don't eat humans, so we honestly can't say that we're treating all animals just like people at this time in our lives. We just want to show compassion and we want them to have happy lives and not to suffer when they die...but maybe someday we'll go even further.

[marsupial-mom]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama 

marsupial-mom -- I really like the idea of helping dd get involved with animal rights groups!

Great!

Here is a great resource for finding people who eat vegan, vegetarian, or part-time vegetarian:

http://vegetarian.meetup.com/

http://vegan.meetup.com/

There are some groups on yahoo, too so check that out.

As far as AR groups go, I really think you'd like what these ones are doing:

http://www.bestfriends.org/ (check out the lcoal section: http://www.bestfriends.org/What-We-Do/Local-Programs/ )

They focus mostly on cats and dogs but every so often they deal with an issue that's about farmed animals and at the santuary they have some pigs, horses, cows, etc. They also have a vegetarian buffet at the sanctuary with a vegan option. If you can ever visit it please do because it's so beautiful and peaceful. I'm not sure where you live but if you ever get to the west check them out.

PETA really runs the gamut. They do all kinds of things (good and bad) which means there's virtually something for every kind of animal-lover. They have a kids section:

http://www.petakids.com/

[mammal_mama]

Thanks so much! I know what dd is really focused on is chicken rights because dogs and cats, and lots of other animils, are already protected by some animal rights legislation, but chickens are excluded.

[meemee]

isnt it amazing that we have been eating chickens only these last hundred years or so or even less. their eggs were collected and they were let loose in the land to scratch and peck and aerate the soil. 

with the advent of heard disease and obesity chicken became the prescribed bird and the demand skyrocketed and thus the abuse began. 

it is heartwrenching what is done to the birds and to me (in my woo wooness) i feel gosh what are we eating? what energy must be passing from their flesh into us - pain and suffering, leave alone everything else. while all the animals face abuse nothing does as much as the poor chickens. 

so i am glad that your dd wants to stand up for their cause. 

[mammal_mama]

I'm really glad too, meemee, although at first it was so hard. Because she'd want to educate every child she met about how horribly they were treated, and explain why nobody should ever eat at KFC, because of those videos she saw on YouTube. And some kids would really make fun of her about it. I know she really needed an outlet, some way to feel like she was helping them, but I tried to help her see that most kids don't have any control over what their parents buy and prepare for their meals.

However, about a week ago we were given two chickens by a food pantry, and while the chicken was cooking it smelled so good she ended up deciding to go ahead and eat some. I know we'll never eat at KFC, but it looks like we may sometimes be eating chicken. But I still want to help her find that outlet she needs for speaking out and making a difference in the world.

[rightkindofme]

Is there any possibility of raising your own chickens? I'm going to build a coop out of found lumber and raise my own because I have ethical qualms about the meat industry.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme 

Is there any possibility of raising your own chickens? I'm going to build a coop out of found lumber and raise my own because I have ethical qualms about the meat industry.

Yes, we want so badly to do this again. As I've mentioned on other threads here, and maybe some on this thread but I'm not sure, we actually did keep free-range chickens for about a year. We have a big, double-lot yard, which is completely fenced in, both front and back, and dh had converted our detached garage into a sort of barn, with hay and everything, which he would clean out and replace on a daily basis, and he kept a space heater in there to keep them warm in the winter, and a big industrial-strength fan to cool them in the summer, and during the day he'd open the door and just let them roam all over the yard.

This went well for about a year, and we even had a police officer on horseback who'd come about some other issue in the neighborhood, stop to admire them and ask to take pictures, so dh got pictures of him on his horse and he got pictures of the chicks...but then, a little over a year ago, some city officials came to see our neighbor who'd been buying old vehicles, taking them apart on our street which is not zoned for business, and selling the parts.

And one of them noticed our birds running around in our fenced-in yard and called Animal Control. And they came and took them because we hadn't gotten signatures from all the neighbors within a 100-foot radius, and they weren't willing to give us a few days to get the signatures because we should have already had everything in order before getting them, and since dh was quite upset, someone radioed the police in case they needed backup, and a police officer got concerned because our girls were very dirty from playing and digging in the dirt all day, and their hair was messy, and she saw that our house was also messy when she looked through our open front door...so she called the child abuse hotline, and a social worker showed up soon after the police and Animal Control people left...

And everything went okay with CPS -- no case was even opened -- but for a long time, I just felt really on edge and didn't want to do anything to attract any more attention to our family. But lately dh and I have been talking about doing everything we need to do to be in compliance, and then starting over again with new chickens, It would be wonderful! Dh would need to obtain some kind of fencing to keep them in just one section of the yard, because Animal Control said they can't just be totally free-range in the city, plus, now that we don't have AC and can't get it fixed anytime soon, we'd need to get a second industrial strength fan because we need one in the house to enable us to sleep on really hot nights. I also think dh said he sold the space heater, so I think we'd need to buy another one. Plus the signatures...this will be a challenge because our next door neighbor is pretty much convinced, for some reason, that dh's been the one who's created all the problems between him and the city...

But hopefully we'll still be able to have chickens again in the not too distant future. And good luck with yours!

[pek64]

Originally Posted by mtiger 

I disagree. My daughter's b/f's son and his family all hunt. And they do not buy any meat - they eat only what they have taken. And they use ALL of the animal, and are respectful of what the animal provides. Nothing wrong with that, IMO.

I never said they were disrespectful of what the animal provides. They may or may not be respectful, like all meat eaters. What I said is it takes a certain callousness to kill and butcher an animal. I could not do it. If I needed to or starve, I don't know what I would do. I'm thankful I don't have to find out.

My point was that the same callousness that enables them to slaughter for food can also blind them to the impact of their talking about it with others.

Some are sensitive to the feelings of those listening, others are not. And, in my experience, those who are not do not become sensitive.

[One_Girl]

I just noticed this thread and want to suggest looking into 4h laws and joining an urban chicken group in your area if you have 4h groups. Some cities have different codes and allow a higher number of animals for animals being raised for 4h purposes. They also don't need a heater or fan in most areas, just make sure the coupe yard is in an area where they can get sun and shade. There is book about raising chickens written for 4h kids that has some very detailed and to the point information on set up and routine care.

I'm glad everything worked out with the group. I hope things continue to go well.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by One_Girl 

I just noticed this thread and want to suggest looking into 4h laws and joining an urban chicken group in your area if you have 4h groups. Some cities have different codes and allow a higher number of animals for animals being raised for 4h purposes. They also don't need a heater or fan in most areas, just make sure the coupe yard is in an area where they can get sun and shade. There is book about raising chickens written for 4h kids that has some very detailed and to the point information on set up and routine care.

I'm glad everything worked out with the group. I hope things continue to go well.

That sounds like a great idea -- but actually, the fan and heater are just what we personally feel a need to provide, because we have cold winters and hot summers here. The laws about keeping chickens in our state actually seem focused just on not spreading any germs or diseases to humans -- not on humane care and treatment for the birds themselves.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by pek64 


I never said they were disrespectful of what the animal provides. They may or may not be respectful, like all meat eaters. What I said is it takes a certain callousness to kill and butcher an animal. I could not do it. If I needed to or starve, I don't know what I would do. I'm thankful I don't have to find out.

My point was that the same callousness that enables them to slaughter for food can also blind them to the impact of their talking about it with others.

Some are sensitive to the feelings of those listening, others are not. And, in my experience, those who are not do not become sensitive.

The friend I mentioned further upthread is a very kind person. To call anyone who slaughters their own meat callous is to label as callous every single one of our ancestors -- plus all the gatherer/hunter groups still living in the world today.

I think it's only in modern times that people have been able to obtain all the nutrients they needed from plant protein -- even the gatherer/hunter groups who rely mostly on plants do feast on the occasional animal.

[mtiger]

Originally Posted by meemee 

isnt it amazing that we have been eating chickens only these last hundred years or so or even less. their eggs were collected and they were let loose in the land to scratch and peck and aerate the soil.

Actually, Chickens were eaten in Ancient Rome.

[meemee]

Originally Posted by mtiger 

Actually, Chickens were eaten in Ancient Rome.

wow this blows my mind. the chicken travelled from SE asia to rome. thanks for this. i went and quickly looked up and found they used chicken for divination too. and they got them probably from persia where cockfighting was a sport. 

i came across an ancient recipe book mainly from europe and there was no mention of chicken. this was a book on feasts. i think the recipes dated from 1500 or 1600 and the most common birds were pheasant and quail. 

[mtiger]

I found this to be a really interesting read...

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/How-the-Chicken-Conquered-the-World.html
 

[meemee]

Originally Posted by mtiger 

I found this to be a really interesting read...

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/How-the-Chicken-Conquered-the-World.html
 

thanks mtiger. that is the exact article i found too where i learnt about the divination. fascinating stuff. 

[pek64]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama 

The friend I mentioned further upthread is a very kind person. To call anyone who slaughters their own meat callous is to label as callous every single one of our ancestors -- plus all the gatherer/hunter groups still living in the world today.

I think it's only in modern times that people have been able to obtain all the nutrients they needed from plant protein -- even the gatherer/hunter groups who rely mostly on plants do feast on the occasional animal.

I'm glad your friend is kind. I think you missed the "can" in my comment. And it's kind of hard to kill an animal if you are empathizing their pain. That is the callousness needed.

[Smithie]

pek64, do you enjoy it when people accuse you of being hypersensitive or hysterical or otherwise emotionally dysfunctional because you do not eat meat?

Well, that's how I feel about being called callous, or having my farmers called callous, because we act like the omnivores that we evolved to be.

[pek64]

Smithie, I actually do eat meat. And there needs to be a certain callousness to kill and butcher an animal. I'm grateful that others do it for me, as I don't think I could do it. Maybe, if I had no other options, I could learn to do it and become calloused.

Just because I said callousness is needed doesn't mean I'm vegetarian.

[Alenushka]

To me this is really First World People problems. 

IF you do not have money or food you gratefully eat what is in front of you be it bean or chicken, frogs or lettuce.  I think ti is also important to remember  that you can't control other people . They will eat chickens and talk about it.  

What you can do in US is to become a vegetarian. Being vegetarian in US is relatively easy and much cheaper than being a meat eater.  If you are poor, you vegetarian food does not have to be organic. Nutrition wise you will be ways ahead of stand art American diet.  If your area has farm co-cops you want to consider that. Years of being a vegetarian made me into a very good cook.

On the other hand, it is your child right to eat or not to eat some animal and not other. But it certainly not her right to judje.

I eat poultry and beef, but I would not eat a cat unless I was starving or vising some tribal village where is is custom

[Smithie]

Fair enough, pek. I think callousness is very nearly the OPPOSITE of the emotional state required to responsibly harvest meat for food, but that's just my opinion.