Journeying towards ethical eating while getting along with others - Page 5

[pek64]

You know, Smithie, that's the first time I heard/read the word 'harvest' used to describe hunting or slaughtering. That term was used to describe gathering crops from the field, when I was growing up. I guess times change.

It would be difficult to kill an animal if one was empathizing with the fear and pain the animal was feeling. Hence, callousness is needed. Perhaps you would feel more comfortable with the word 'detached' . Either way, that disconnect from empathy can result in a lack of empathy when discussing hunting and slaughtering, in my experience. Not always, but sometimes. And, to get back to the original topic, a person who does not think about how his/her words effect others is not likely to change and become more aware. That's all.

Back to the OP. I hope all goes well for your family and future chickens.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

On the other hand, it is your child right to eat or not to eat some animal and not other. But it certainly not her right to judje.

As I've already said, she was upset about the woman talking so much about the act of killing the chickens, and about her statement that chickens don't have a consciousness and there's no need to treat them humanely. She wasn't judging anyone for eating meat.

pek64, I can't imagine eating the meat that others kill for me and then setting myself up on a higher level by saying that they can't possibly have as much empathy as me. We eat meat, and it would be very hard for me to slaughter an animal myself -- and yet I do agree with the guy on the Edible City movie who said that if we eat meat, we have a responsibility to be aware of exactly how we're getting our meat.

I also don't agree with forever branding the woman at the meeting as "calloused" because she made this one blunder, Or what is in my opinion a blunder -- I realize that some here are saying that there's no problem with someone talking openly about chicken slaughter -- but as I've already mentioned, there was at least one other parent, who had smaller children, who wasn't very happy about how she just went on and on in such detail. So I do see it as a blunder and not an appropriate thing to talk about in that setting.

I mean, it's not a setting where I'd just start going on and on about how my deceased loved ones looked after death, as compared to in life -- or about what someone's actual death looked like, if I'd actually been there and observed one of my loved ones dying. And I do think we're all human and death is part of life and all that -- I just wouldn't assume that everyone else's kid was in a state of readiness to hear all that, you know? I also wouldn't assume that even those who were "ready" to hear about it necessarily wanted to hear about it from me, or at that particular moment.

But I've made so many of my own blunders throughout my lifetime, and I"ve also reached awareness about some things after years of being in the dark (for example, before having kids myself, I actually thought corporal punishment was a good thing) -- so my own lack of perfection makes me more inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they're really not trying to be jerks and are actually probably pretty decent people, with room to grow. Of course, my 12yo isn't looking at this through my experiential lenses, so it's harder for her to empathize about some things. I really appreciate all the great advice and things are going fine with the group now.

Edited by mammal_mama - 2/6/13 at 4:33am

[pek64]

She doesn't feel it's necessary to treat chickens humanely, but is not calloused?!? Whatever.

[Smithie]

It would be difficult to kill an animal if one was empathizing with the fear and pain the animal was feeling.

I really think it would benefit you to learn more about how farmers raise and harvest meat (not a euphemism, that's a very old term). You are imagining an industrial slaughter operation, I think. "Fear" and "pain" simply are not part of animal harvest on the small-farm scale. No creature is likely to live its whole life without any fear or pain - livestock animals can get sick, can be injured, can be subject to death by predation - but the actual harvest moment is just not painful or scary, at least not in any way that an observing human can detect. 

If animal suffering is a major moral issue for you, then I suggest you avoid industrial meat, milk and eggs. Buy animal products from people whose farms you can visit. If you did that and still believed after dealing with farmers that their ability to raise livestock and harvest meat stemmed from callousness or detachment, I'd be very surprised. Ironically, they'll might think YOU'RE callous for the years you spent eating animal products that you know were produced under industrial conditions - but they'll be polite enough not to say so - and once they get to know you, they'll realize their error. 

[pek64]

I am currently buying my beef from a small farm, where the animals are living in as natural conditions as possible, eating grass that is chemical free. Once again, assumptions have been made that are erroneous. I have talked with various people who live and work on the farm. My opinions about callousness remain.

All is not black and white. Good or bad. Callousness is needed by doctors to stitch wounds. I could not do that, either, but was glad there was someone able to stitch my deep cut so it could heal properly. I hope I have traits that are advantageous to others, as well. To say that Mozart had an ear for music does not mean no one else ever had or has. It does not change the fact that he had an ability or trait. It is not me who is judging. I am pointing out a trait that I see. I could be wrong, but the thread was started so the OP could get opinions from others. I am puzzled why there is an effort to convince me that my opinion is wrong. What if it is? No one need take it to heart. It is simply put forth, in a moment of compassion, to attempt to help. If it does not help, simply move on. I will not be changing my opinion. All attempts to influence me on this subject are most likely futile. Especially as I do not intend to return to this thread to continue this, for lack of a better word, conversation.

[Smithie]

You might get a more charitable response if you didn't choose a term like "callous" to describe people whose emotional landscape differs from your own. I find your choice of words offensive and disrespectful. I paid you the compliment of assuming that your attitude was based in a lack of information. 

[mtiger]

Originally Posted by pek64 

Callousness is needed by doctors to stitch wounds.

Wow. My grandmother was a doctor - and she was anything but callous. Same with most doctors I know. And vets. Most people go into these professions from a deep desire to help those in need. That's hardly callous.

As for hunting/killing animals for food... Do you know nothing of how most native societies "thanked" the spirit of the animal they killed for food? How is that callous?

I have, myself, put an animal out of its misery on more than one occasion. Not a one of those situations was from callousness - each was out of a desire to end the suffering. Was it pleasant? Not at all. Each time, I was as gentle as possible under the circumstances. And each time, I sat with the animal afterwards, in tears and in prayer (for them as well as myself). before burying the body. It is extremely offensive to have someone like you sit on a high horse and proclaim that anyone who kills an animal is callous.

[meemee]

Originally Posted by pek64 

All is not black and white. Good or bad. Callousness is needed by doctors to stitch wounds. I could not do that, either, but was glad there was someone able to stitch my deep cut so it could heal properly.

yikes i hope you do return to answer this question of mine. 

are you sure you are using the right word? callousness? from what you write i feel callousness is not what you are meaning to imply. 

i did a quick dictionary on the word and this is what it means : 

unfeelingness: devoid of passion or feeling; hardheartedness.

is that really were you trying to say? i mean comparing stitching a wound with killing an animal are two different things. i feel stitching a wound or even a big gaping wound is like not fainting at the sight of blood. 

are you talking about detachment? detachment in such a way that the sight of blood, or flesh does not wig you out.

does it have to be blood and gore that leads to callousness? or does it have to have eyes and blood. i know this is an age old argument but to eat you also kill plant life. it is still life right? and maybe now we have decided - well plants dont feel pain - not that we know, but that we dont know. would that make you and me callous too. 

i have a feeling you are using the wrong word to express what you mean to say. but if you do mean hardhearted or unfeeling - that is a judgement call you are making. then in essense we are all that coz we unconciously kill bugs all over the place. 

dunno. one gives up life to let another live. whether they have eyes or chlorophyll, a life is lost. man does the same thing too - even though no one eats us (sorta). i mean in a sense we 'eat' each other - but on such pathetic grounds. war. the soldier gives up their life for an ideology - so others can have freedom. so shouldnt we the people who let war happen also be termed callous. or even worse. instead of killing with our own hands, we are choosing a representative to do the killing on our behalf. so a butcher, farmer and soldier are the same thing right?!!!

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by meemee 

dunno. one gives up life to let another live. whether they have eyes or chlorophyll, a life is lost. man does the same thing too - even though no one eats us (sorta). i mean in a sense we 'eat' each other - but on such pathetic grounds. war. the soldier gives up their life for an ideology - so others can have freedom. so shouldnt we the people who let war happen also be termed callous. or even worse. instead of killing with our own hands, we are choosing a representative to do the killing on our behalf. so a butcher, farmer and soldier are the same thing right?!!!

This is so powerful, and has really had me thinking for the past couple of days. I'm a beginning practitioner and student of yoga, and two things I've been learning about are our connectedness to everything and everybody -- to the whole multiverse -- and our connectedness to our own personal dharma. I see my dharma as my unique calling, which corresponds to the particular form through which I'm currently experiencing universal life and energy. As a human mother, a huge piece of my dharma in this life is nurturing the lives of my human children. Universally speaking, my chidren and I are not any more important than a cow or a pepper plant -- but dharmatically speaking, our lives are exceedingly precious to me.

Of course, as a lover of kundalini yoga, I've also been learning about how vegetarianism is a very important part of today's kundalini lifestyle -- and yet, from some reading I've done (yes, I actually looked for it), it sounds like the original kundalini practitioners in Vedic times may have been meat eaters.

Lately, I've been growing more aware of yoga (or connection) as being about so much more than just the asanas or postures (or, in Kundalini, kriyas) that open up the channels within our bodies, and between our bodies, souls, spirits, and Universe and enable the energy to freely flow. Yoga is really about living out, day to day, our unity with everything and everybody, so living this way is bound to have huge implications on what I put into my mouth, how I treat the people, plants, and animals around me, and what I support with my time and energy.

I recently heard my daughter telling some people that she's "not really eco-friendly," and I've been quietly paying attention to learn why she feels this way. I learned that they've been talking in her Sunday School class about the need to reduce our carbon footprint -- and, of course, the aspect of dd's carbon footprint that she has the most control over is the amount of time that she spends "plugged in." And she is honestly saying that she is not willing to change this aspect of her life. She's a big gamer, and she's also become increasingly interested in discovering new music on YouTube, and also in splicing movies and creating music videos (which she's really good at).

So I really do respect her honesty, her realization that being "eco-friendly" is about more than just spouting some ideals. I'm hoping and believing that she'll eventually find her own path and spiritual connection. After all, lots of people who consider themselves eco-friendly do also spend a lot of time "plugged in," so it's not so cut and dry. Maybe her realization that everything's not cut and dry or black and whilte has something to do with ther recent decision to go ahead and eat chicken. Who knows?

[meemee]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama 

I recently heard my daughter telling some people that she's "not really eco-friendly," and I've been quietly paying attention to learn why she feels this way. I learned that they've been talking in her Sunday School class about the need to reduce our carbon footprint -- and, of course, the aspect of dd's carbon footprint that she has the most control over is the amount of time that she spends "plugged in." And she is honestly saying that she is not willing to change this aspect of her life. She's a big gamer, and she's also become increasingly interested in discovering new music on YouTube, and also in splicing movies and creating music videos (which she's really good at).

So I really do respect her honesty, her realization that being "eco-friendly" is about more than just spouting some ideals. I'm hoping and believing that she'll eventually find her own path and spiritual connection. After all, lots of people who consider themselves eco-friendly do also spend a lot of time "plugged in," so it's not so cut and dry. Maybe her realization that everything's not cut and dry or black and whilte has something to do with ther recent decision to go ahead and eat chicken. Who knows?

mm - my dd is 10. she is coming into her own. i am so enjoying watching that and seeing who she is turning into. 

i am learning how 'diverse' she is. i am discovering how many layers exist in her - and how i limit who she is in my mind thinking of her as a 'child'. i kinda was a little sad that she was so into popular music. till i discovered that is just one part of her. she so digs so many different kinds of music. i had no idea she knew and enjoyed slave songs not just for the music but about the story they told. and how much she knew what the lyrics meant. how much she knows of the true 'history' of the black people. AND she realises that the blood of probably their perpetrators course through her veins and thus its even more important to her to treat people well to undoe probably what her forefathers might have done. 

i so so so respect who she is and i learn so much from her. 

i just loved hearing about how your dd really 'gets' ecofriendly and how buying a reusable grocery bag is just one tiny part of being eco-friendly. just considering the poor chicken is helping your dd learn so much about herself. 

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by meemee 

mm - my dd is 10. she is coming into her own. i am so enjoying watching that and seeing who she is turning into. 

i am learning how 'diverse' she is. i am discovering how many layers exist in her - and how i limit who she is in my mind thinking of her as a 'child'. i kinda was a little sad that she was so into popular music. till i discovered that is just one part of her. she so digs so many different kinds of music. i had no idea she knew and enjoyed slave songs not just for the music but about the story they told. and how much she knew what the lyrics meant. how much she knows of the true 'history' of the black people. AND she realises that the blood of probably their perpetrators course through her veins and thus its even more important to her to treat people well to undoe probably what her forefathers might have done. 

Wow, what depth!