Flu? - Page 2

post #21 of 32

Just because there cannot be a controlled study does not mean there cannot be scientific findings.  There is a huge difference between anecdotal evidence and a study that is as controlled as can be given the situation.  In this most recent study (published in The New England Journal of Medicine yesterday), more than 100,000 pregnancies were identified from 2009.  The more than one-half of those who received a flu shot were 1/3 as likely to get the flu, and women who got the flu were 91% more likely to lose the fetus than those who didn't.  Other studies have shown a sharp decline in birth rates six and seven months after the 1918 flu pandemic, suggesting that first trimester losses were significant when many women got the flu.  

 

Obviously it is a personal decision, but all evidence suggests the vaccine is safe, the flu is not. 

post #22 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by easttowest View Post

Just because there cannot be a controlled study does not mean there cannot be scientific findings.  There is a huge difference between anecdotal evidence and a study that is as controlled as can be given the situation.  In this most recent study (published in The New England Journal of Medicine yesterday), more than 100,000 pregnancies were identified from 2009.  The more than one-half of those who received a flu shot were 1/3 as likely to get the flu, and women who got the flu were 91% more likely to lose the fetus than those who didn't.  Other studies have shown a sharp decline in birth rates six and seven months after the 1918 flu pandemic, suggesting that first trimester losses were significant when many women got the flu.  

 

Obviously it is a personal decision, but all evidence suggests the vaccine is safe, the flu is not. 


I guess I just have issue with those numbers not being qualified with an "as reported"...so those are the reported numbers, not necessarily actual numbers. (some people may have had the flu and not reported it in both groups).  I'm not saying that you *can't* make judgments based on that information, it's just a  minor annoyance on my part...I look at the information in a similar light as I do VAERS - you can make generalizations about  the information and certainly find useful information, but it's only as accurate as the reporting is.  I'm also not saying it's a bad choice to get the flu shot - honestly I have issue with vaccines on a much larger level than just the flu shot, so I'm actually not all that familiar with the particulars here...just trying to explain some of my thoughts, same as you.

post #23 of 32

I agree with you BabySmurf.  All we know about ANY medication during pregnancy is from anecdotal data (or animal studies).  Any medication (even class B) could potentially have adverse effects on a fetus.  When it comes to vaccines, experts state that the benefit outweighs the risk.  And like with any other medication, I agree that it is a matter of personal choice on whether that is an acceptable risk.

 

Like I said in an earlier post, I did get the flu vaccine during the first trimester, and it caused quite an issue between my husband and I.  He felt that it was an unacceptable risk.  I told him that I felt like it was too much of a risk to work with 1200 elementary school aged children everyday and not be vaccinated.  We agreed to disagree.  So far so good.  I haven't even had so much as a cold during pregnancy so I'm happy about that.  Did I make the right decision?  I can only hope so.  We have quite a few kiddos and staff out sick with influenza right now, so I know that it is here.  So far, no 'serious' illness or hospitalizations with the kiddos in my schools, but there have been pregnant women and children hospitalized in my city.

 

My husband is anti-vaccine and does not want to vaccinate the baby.  I struggle with this as an advanced practice nurse with a public health background, because I know from professional experience that vaccine preventable diseases DO still exist.  Perhaps we could come up with a compromise (I will strongly push for pertussis, hib and pneumococcal vaccines as protect against meningitis and ear infections and pertussis, but could wait on flu and the other things).... we'll see what happens.  A LOT to think about.
 

post #24 of 32
Quote:

Originally Posted by easttowest View Post

 

Other studies have shown a sharp decline in birth rates six and seven months after the 1918 flu pandemic, suggesting that first trimester losses were significant when many women got the flu.  

 

So, actually thinking about the 1918 pandemic suggesting that first trimester losses from flu were high...that's a rather bold assumption, IMO.  I would think that a number of reasons would contribute to a lower birth rate during that time - like war, malnutrition, and people just not DTD with that much sickness around.  Besides, the 1918 flu disproportionately affected healthy individuals because their immune systems overreacted, while people generally more at risk, like children, elderly, and pregnant women were less affected because their immune systems couldn't react as strongly......I know that this conversation should probably be continued in the vax forum at this point...

post #25 of 32

I can sympathize because I was just in this situation. I had a pretty bad fever - 102.5 - and took Tylenol which brought the fever way down. I went and saw the doc and they prescribed Tamiflu and went through all the risks of the flu for pregnant ladies. I was hesitant to take it because my fever had gone down and I felt better so I didn't. Then I was sick in bed for the next 4 days - fever and just couldn't do ANYTHING. I don't know still if it was the flu - I didn't have body aches but I had upper respiratory stuff. My Dr tested me for flu and it was negative but she said that it can still come back negative and you can have flu because it only tests for a particular straing. So a nasal swab is not always conclusive. In any case, towards the 3rd or 4th day my son started coming down with a new thing and I was like "i can't take this anymore!" and took tamiflu for the next day and a half, then started feeling better, then didn't take anymore tamiflu.

 

So anyways - I was totally conflicted and I think either way you will most likely be fine if you can take care of yourself and rest which is what I was forced to do. Whatever I had was a real monster and I don't normally get sick so maybe in retrospect I should have taken the Tamiflu. But at least it's over now. For the record, I ate like a horse the week after that and gained like 3.5 lbs in one week...

post #26 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by JNajla View Post

I would caution anyone to be informed and not rely upon biased sources (moms against vaccines groups), etc.

 

All sources are biased.  Everyone has to do as much reading as they feel comfortable to make their own choices.

post #27 of 32

I meant to be cautious about 'personal stories' and do reading about clinical trials, studies, or scholarly sources. 

post #28 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by JNajla View Post

clinical trials, studies, or scholarly sources. 

 

Unfortunately, many times these are biased too.  See who funds them.

post #29 of 32

The onion is not used to "cure" anything but rather help to minimaize discomforts as it had anti-inflamitory properties, and to help with the healing process. The vapors help to reduce swelling of the airways. While this is something my grandmothers have done for centuries and carry the rap of "folk remidies" I know many health professionals, like my daughters peditrician who suggested it and reminded me of my grandmother doing it, who believe many of folk remidies (including the "onion myth") to be beneficial to overall health in a family.
 

It is better to consume onion but most children wont and this is another way to get some of its benefits. Onions are related closely to garlic which has similar properties and most health professionals will agree to its health properties for overall health and with colds.
 

While "modern science" hasn't spent times researching the efficacy of most folk remedies I am not one to easily dismiss knowledge (and science in its own way) passed down for hudreds of years when modern medical science is relatively new, especially concerning prenatal health.(I am not surprised that studies haven't shown the benefits yet, why would a pharmacutical compay pay to test something people can buy at the supermarket? What would they profit? There are many things which have been touted as not scienced based which later sciences has "proved"

Science is only fact for the time in which is discovered, indeed there is much more we DON’T know than what we actually DO know. At one point it was believed having babies in a sterile environment with little human interaction was beneficial (and at the time backed by “evidence.”) Spirituality, “science” and “evidence” all have one vital thing in common; they all require someone to believe them to be true, through their own experience and/or research.)
 

As for the flu vaccine, like many things it is a personal choice, however my peidtrician, OB, primary care, and midwives all believe there is not enough evidence and they don't push it, though they will give it if someone "really" wants it. Additionally many of my friends and family members are health professionals who all refuse the flu (and many other ) vaccines. One person I know works in an emergency room and told me she has yet to see or hear of one person admitted with the flu, who didn't have the flu shot. And every person who has gotten the flu this year that I know personally have had the flu vaccine. Anecdotal I know.  My friend who works in the ER did not get the vaccine and had to sign a waiver, she has yet to contract the flu, her trick? Handwashing (not just sanitizer foam, healthy diet with probiotics and lots of onion, garlic and elderberry, exercise and all the breaks she can outside in the fresh air.
 

I think people who make the choice not to vaccinate don't do it just because for no reason, or that they are misinformed. I think like those who make choices on keeping boys intact they spend a lot of time reading information from many places, not just studies backed by pharmacutical/medical companies or the other side of "radical" sources.

 

very personal choice.

 

I am also glad the OP SweetMama didn't have the flu and listened to her intuition to not take the meds, thusly risking exposure to her baby for not reason.

 

Sorry SweetMama your thread got hijacked!!!

post #30 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by amlikam View Post

The onion is not used to "cure" anything but rather help to minimaize discomforts as it had anti-inflamitory properties, and to help with the healing process. The vapors help to reduce swelling of the airways. While this is something my grandmothers have done for centuries and carry the rap of "folk remidies" I know many health professionals, like my daughters peditrician who suggested it and reminded me of my grandmother doing it, who believe many of folk remidies (including the "onion myth") to be beneficial to overall health in a family.
 

It is better to consume onion but most children wont and this is another way to get some of its benefits. Onions are related closely to garlic which has similar properties and most health professionals will agree to its health properties for overall health and with colds.
 

While "modern science" hasn't spent times researching the efficacy of most folk remedies I am not one to easily dismiss knowledge (and science in its own way) passed down for hudreds of years when modern medical science is relatively new, especially concerning prenatal health.(I am not surprised that studies haven't shown the benefits yet, why would a pharmacutical compay pay to test something people can buy at the supermarket? What would they profit? There are many things which have been touted as not scienced based which later sciences has "proved"

Science is only fact for the time in which is discovered, indeed there is much more we DON’T know than what we actually DO know. At one point it was believed having babies in a sterile environment with little human interaction was beneficial (and at the time backed by “evidence.”) Spirituality, “science” and “evidence” all have one vital thing in common; they all require someone to believe them to be true, through their own experience and/or research.)
 

As for the flu vaccine, like many things it is a personal choice, however my peidtrician, OB, primary care, and midwives all believe there is not enough evidence and they don't push it, though they will give it if someone "really" wants it. Additionally many of my friends and family members are health professionals who all refuse the flu (and many other ) vaccines. One person I know works in an emergency room and told me she has yet to see or hear of one person admitted with the flu, who didn't have the flu shot. And every person who has gotten the flu this year that I know personally have had the flu vaccine. Anecdotal I know.  My friend who works in the ER did not get the vaccine and had to sign a waiver, she has yet to contract the flu, her trick? Handwashing (not just sanitizer foam, healthy diet with probiotics and lots of onion, garlic and elderberry, exercise and all the breaks she can outside in the fresh air.
 

I think people who make the choice not to vaccinate don't do it just because for no reason, or that they are misinformed. I think like those who make choices on keeping boys intact they spend a lot of time reading information from many places, not just studies backed by pharmacutical/medical companies or the other side of "radical" sources.

 

very personal choice.

 

I am also glad the OP SweetMama didn't have the flu and listened to her intuition to not take the meds, thusly risking exposure to her baby for not reason.

 

Sorry SweetMama your thread got hijacked!!!

post #31 of 32
Quote:
While "modern science" hasn't spent times researching the efficacy of most folk remedies I am not one to easily dismiss knowledge (and science in its own way) passed down for hudreds of years when modern medical science is relatively new, especially concerning prenatal health

 

I agree with this too, as I'm sure most of us on here do too.  As someone of Native American descent, I believe in the power of homeopathic remedies, and generally trust homeopathic/ naturopathic medicine more than I do "western medicine".  

 

I'm just a little sensitive about preventative medicine and vaccines because of my professional background (public health) and having an MPH.  I don't like to see adults or children suffer from preventable illness.  

post #32 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by JNajla View Post

 

 

I'm just a little sensitive about preventative medicine and vaccines because of my professional background (public health) and having an MPH.  I don't like to see adults or children suffer from preventable illness.  

 

I have (not as much experience) but a similar background in molecular/medical biology, and while I agree that it really s*cks to see people get sick, it's an inevitable part of being alive.  There is so much that we don't know about immunology and how vaccinating for particular illnesses effects overall health, that it's hard to say what the long term effects of vaccinating a population will do to people, but also to pathogens.  I agree that it's really annoying to see claims made on *both* sides of the argument that aren't well substantiated. 

 

My (personal) biggest issue with the flu vaccine is that most of the issues that have been reported to happen while sick with the flu are not because of the flu virus itself, but because of how our bodies respond to being sick in general.  And the vaccine only protects from one type of sickness, it doesn't have full efficacy, and we don't know until after the season has started if the vaccine is well matched or what the side effects of that vaccine are going to be. It doesn't sit well with me when it's treated as though getting the vaccine is going to "fix" all of the issues and that because someone is vaccinated that there is nothing to worry about. (I know that is not how all people treat it). And I know that having just one less thing that could potentially go wrong is worth the risks for some people.  But for others, developing natural immunity is more important because natural immunity is superior and more far reaching than a vaccine is.  Personally I would love to see a fraction of the money that is put into vaccines put toward helping people achieve optimal health *before* they get sick.  And I don't mean healthy as in the "absence of symptoms" I mean real health.

 

Also, I agree that anecdotal evidence is not something that is going to be well received on an anonymous forum like this, but rest assured that what we experience IRL (obviously there are going to be cases on both sides because *nothing* in life is without risk) is going to blow *any* research study out the window for those involved.