Are there serious risks for chicken pox vaccine for adults? - Page 3

[Rrrrrachel]

I was responding to the assertion that none of the ingredients were naturally occurring.

[Asiago]

Lydilu, it appears that the four week wait is after each dose. Since you would get two doses as an adult, and you must wait 4-8 weeks between doses as well, that time frame in the Merck insert is correct for adult women wishing to become pregnant. Also CDC states, that though no birth defects were reported (when administered during pregnancy) that the risk, albeit low, cannot be excluded.

I would also ask your practitioner which form of antibody titer testing was utilized because there is a notable difference in sensitivity of tests regarding varicella, ELISA is not very sensitive apparently and others are favored over it.

Regarding your own varicella case as an infant, CDC sees it the same, whether a child had the infection before one year of age, or if the infection was mild (versus moderate or severe), it all counts the same and the child need not be vaccinated. I realize that you are an adult but I felt you might be interested in this info.

An interesting note, I had a conversation with my own veterinarian regarding titers and he doesn't find them reliable, I think more specificially, due to the accepted dilution that supposedly shows immunity, because memory cells cannot be measured. Memory cells (B and T) will recall the first exposure to infection years later and build antibodies also, but they cannot be measured. So more specifically, his feelings are probably that one cannot rely upon the titer reading since additional antibodies are likely to be made in the event of a second exposure so long as the first shows some sort of antibody response . This is similar to something I heard from Ronald Schultz, he is a veterinary vaccine researcher, probably the leading one in the US. I attended his lectures. apparently any response, regardless of dilutions on a viral titer is sufficient, I believe he was implying what my own vet had stated about memory cells kicking in when the body was once again faced with the same virus. Unfortunately, the same could not be said of bacteria titers though.

Anyhoo, just a bit more to consider in your decision.

[Pookietooth]

Just because a particular combination of molecules - a chemical - exists somewhere in some form in nature does not mean that creating an isolated version of it and injecting it directly into the body is safe. Studies have shown that synthetic vitamin A and synthetic beta carotene (or an isolated version of it) used as dietary supplements both can cause health problems (liver toxicity with vitamin A and worsening cancer prospects with beta carotene. That may be because the synthetic copies are not exactly the same, or it may be that when in food, there are other unknown supporting nutrients that counteract any negative effects. We just don't know enough to know why. Same with other synthetic chemicals -- we are experimenting with things we don't fully understand. I don't want to be a guinea pig, much less allow my children to be used as such.

I just heard about a family whose child was stillborn after the mother received chicken pox and flu shots while pregnant. Nobody knows if the shots were the cause or not, but they suspect they were.

[erigeron]

Right, Marnica, I found all that. All I was able to find is that glutamate is considered an excitotoxin at high doses. But what's a high dose in this instance? How does the effect change if it's oral versus IM? And would the amount of glutamate in a vaccine reach that level? Some basic questions I would need answers to before I get too concerned about the issue. Any compound needs to reach a certain level (which varies based on several factors) to have any effect. 

[Jennyanydots]

Originally Posted by erigeron 

How does the effect change if it's oral versus IM? And would the amount of glutamate in a vaccine reach that level? Some basic questions I would need answers to before I get too concerned about the issue. 

Not trying to be argumentative, but those basic questions are among the many i would like answered before I feel comfortable with having the drug administered.

[nia82]

It's not terribly effective. I had the vaccine twice in 2006. No antibodies. Again twice in 2007. Nada. I never caught it as child despite numerous exposures.

[Rrrrrachel]

I've always been told that if you've had multiple exposures you probably had it and didn't realize it. (I have no specific memory of chickenpox but I know my siblings, including my twin, had it. I was advised not to worry about it.)

[erigeron]

Originally Posted by Jennyanydots 


Not trying to be argumentative, but those basic questions are among the many i would like answered before I feel comfortable with having the drug administered.

Hey, fair enough. I just get irritated by the "X could be toxic under some circumstances therefore OMG AVOID IT AT ALL TIMES EVER". I think that is a reductive and inaccurate way of looking at it, no matter your opinion on vaccines. 

[BeckyBird]

Originally Posted by erigeron 

 Plus products that exist in nature can be synthesized commercially and are identical in structure to the naturally occurring ones. Like Chickabiddy said, sodium chloride is sodium chloride is sodium chloride. 

I disagree. Here are a few examples, where natural substances are often dangerous when altered:

Homogenized dairy

Hydrogenated oils

Genetically modified organisms

Salt--highly processed salt is stripped of minerals, so it is different than salt found in nature.

[Rrrrrachel]

Some of those are very debatable, but the key difference is ALTERED vs SYNTHESIZED. The two are not the same. Of course you can make a safe substance harmful by altering it. I can "alter" water into hydrogen. The question is if you replicate it in a lab is it really different than when it's naturally occurring.

[BeckyBird]

Vitamin E

http://www.chiro.org/nutrition/FULL/Natural_vs_Synthetic_Vitamin_E.shtml

And salt--I prefer my salt to be natural, with minerals.

[Rrrrrachel]

That's fine. Totally your prerogative. Kind of besides the point, though.

[Rrrrrachel]

The very first sentence of your link:

"There is little difference between the natural and synthetic forms of most vitamins. But with vitamin E, natural is better. "

And saying natural is better is not the same as synthetic is harmful.

[Pookietooth]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2103414

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/11/is-vitamin-toxicity-concern.html

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminA-HealthProfessional/

[Rrrrrachel]

I have no idea what point you're trying to make. That there are different forms of various vitamins? Ok?

[Rrrrrachel]

Or that things that are harmless or even helpful in small amounts can be harmful in large amounts?

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Or that things that are harmless or even helpful in small amounts can be harmful in large amounts?

It's far more important to remember that when vaccines are clearly not harmless to several susceptible sub-groups.  Even the manufacturers admit that they can cause death, and the US government has classified them as "unavoidably unsafe." 

It's not a question of whether or not they "could" be toxic.  We already know that for some people, they have been toxic. So to repeatedly try to convince us that vaccine ingredients are "harmless in small amounts" when people have literally died from them is, from my perspective, inexcusable.  

[Rrrrrachel]

People have died from anaphylactic shock. Nice spin, though.

[Taximom5]

Before you start accusing people of spin, maybe you should review the cases of vaccine-induced seizure disorders, brain damage, severe autoimmune disorders and resultant deaths that the US Department of Health and Human Services has admitted and compensated.  

[prosciencemum]

I have read that stuff, and I have looked at the statistics, and vaccine reactions happen - but are very rare (and I'm sorry it happened in your family).

If you banned all things which had any risk of killing or seriously hurting someone accidently or due to a rare reaction there'd be nothing left....