Question about sleep training for those with experience or lack of

[Loogiejane]

I'm expecting my first babe in May and while I know I might have to wing much of it, I'd like to have an idea going in if I'm going to try getting baby on a sleep schedule or let the babe determine it.

The primary example I have is my older sis, who has 3 children and nursed her babies whenever they wanted, as much as they wanted. She waited too long to give any of them a bottle so she always had her babes with her at all times because they relied on her for her bobos. She definitely wasn't sleeping through the nights in the first year (i think at least 3-6 months) which I always assumed was normal.

My neighbor upstairs just had her second baby. The baby is only 2 weeks old and she already started this schedule that she did with her now 3 yr old. It got her 3 yr old sleeping through the night at 6 wks old. It requires a lot of discipline it sounds like and being home a lot so baby can be doing "this" at noon or "that" at 3:00. She (gently) wakes the baby up during daytime naps to nurse her and doesn't let her nurse every time she roots. 

She claims that while its sort of  to have to stick to such a schedule in the beginning, it's worth it to be able to sleep through the night. She's got some book she follows called Well Rested Baby I think. 

Then I go back to my sister, who was/is always on the go, very active, always going on little daytrip outings, running errands, and she'd let her kids fall asleep in the car or nap in the stroller, and didn't have to be home at X hour to have the baby napping in the crib. I have asked her about it and she said yea she didnt get to always sleep through the night but she couldn't imagine having to always be home and that she likes being to be out. 

I am looking for feedback from both sides, to hear pros and cons. I see myself being lazy and not motivated like my neighbor but on the other hand would cherish sleeping through the night. Sorry for the long post but thanks for your input!

[Chloe'sMama]

I think you have to decide what feels right to you.  Any form of sleep training felt unnatural to me.  This being said, I still co-sleep with my 2.5 year old and our 4.5 year old just moved into a twin bed in our room (out of our bed)....I think co-sleeping and night nursing was a natural thing for my kids and our family.  My girls didn't sleep long stretches until night weaned at around 20 months each.  This was not a problem for us though.

There are very gentle ways to get babies on schedules and I would advocate that over some of the other harsher methods.  I know our society values this idea of getting kids to sleep through the night, even going so far as to let infants scream alone in their bed.... 

I don't know what type of schedule or training you were thinking of, but I am sure some moms on here have some great ideas for gentle methods.

[Loogiejane]

Well I believe she follows the Well Rested Baby model. She's a great mother, nurses exclusively, feeds her daughter wholesome food, etc etc....I doubt she would doing anything "harsh" but she definitely follows a strict schedule. 

[Nightwish]

Originally Posted by Chloe'sMama 

I think you have to decide what feels right to you.  Any form of sleep training felt unnatural to me. 

I agree with this. When you have your baby, it will change your perspectives forever, no matter how much planning you do in advance. IMO, sleep training a newborn is not worth doing in order for *me* to get a whole night's sleep. Now that our co-sleeping days are (almost) over, I know I lost a lot of sleep but I gained a lot of memories that nobody is going to take away from me. One of the sweetest is offering my baby milk when she was rooting for the breast.

I think there is a middle road between what your sister and what you neighbour are doing. Personally, I prefer to be home for the kids' naps and bedtime so they can rest in their own bed. *I* wouldn't be well rested and comfortable sleeping in a car, so why should they? That being said, on rare occasions I had my kids sleep in the car, especially as babies, when we couldn't cut our outing short, for one reason or another.

You say your sister waited "too long" to offer a bottle; I see this as a pro, not as an inconvenience. I prefer not to give my babies bottles so they don't end up by preferring the bottle in the end. Also, it's much easier as far as packing and preparing for going out; I didn't have to take anything with me except for a diaper or two when I went out with my baby.

Edited by Nightwish - 1/30/13 at 4:16am

[katelove]

I am very much a fan of allowing babies to find their own routine. As they get older I do tend to fit our activities around sleep times but that is mainly because I either want to sleep then too or I want some alone time at home to read or watch TV or sew or something. When they're very little (first 6 months or so) I don't mind being out while they sleep because they sleep so often.

And, while some babies naturally sleep through the night quite early, I think the majority need and benefit from some contact with their parent/s over night. Whether that is for feeding or comfort.

My personal experience has been that the best way to get as much sleep as possible is to co-sleep. I find getting up when I'm tired a real chore. It is much more restful for me to be able to stay lying down and maybe even doze while I feed. I also find my babies settled a lot more quickly as they never woke up fully either.

My first child (now 2.5yo) used to wake fairly often to feed o/night. Every 3-4hrs at best with occasional periods of more frequent waking. My new babe (10.5weeks) only wakes once overnight at the moment.

All the parents I know who have tried to impose an external routine on their baby seem to have had much more stress and complained much more of problems than the ones who follow their baby's routine. I'm guessing that if your friend's baby was sleeping through the night at 2 weeks old it was because that was it's natural pattern.

[mamazee]

With most babies, it takes more than "a lot of discipline" to get them sleeping through the night at 6 weeks. It usually takes ignoring their cries and hunger. Now my younger child was sleeping through the night at one week, but most babies don't do that. Most are up at night for months and months because they are hungry at night and need to eat. I really feel that ignoring a baby's cries and making them learn to sleep when they might be hungry - or even lonely as that's a legitimate need for babies as well - is too harsh to be just a neutral parenting choice.

My younger baby, who slept through the night, always had to be home for her naps and was insistent about that. I loved the flexibility with the one who would sleep anywhere (the first one) and I loved being able to sleep through the night (with the younger one) but I didn't have a choice in either case. I think you have to wait till the baby is here and see what kind of sleep habits he/she has.

[rightkindofme]

Err, no amount of "discipline" would have put my kids on a schedule. Some kids incline that way and with parental encouragement can adapt. Other kids... not so much. Humans are weird, complicated animals.

And my kids wouldn't take a bottle because I "waited too long". It is inconvenient being tied to a baby for the whole first year + of life but I didn't have kids because I wanted my life to be convenient. It worked for me.

[skycheattraffic]

I completely agree with the advice of wait and see what is a good fit for your baby. I am an in between mama but definitely closer to the follow baby side. By about 6 months or so we established a bedtime routine at night. Her routine started at 6:30 but if she was tired earlier, we started earlier. If she had a late nap and was energetic then I gave her an extra 20-30 minutes. Naps were timed from the time she woke up (usually 3 hours) but I was always flexible with that. I didn't pick these numbers out of thin air but they emerged as her rhythm and I just formed it up a little. In the early months she would nap wherever it by 7 or so months she needed her own space although would occasionally snooze in the car or stroller. FWIW, she's 22 months and still wakes up at night. DD was very flexible/easy as a newborn but really needed the routine to wind down in later infancy and definitely toddlerhood. I think the best plan is to have an idea of how you want to parent, wait and meet the baby and then follow your instincts and baby's cues as much as possible.

[Loogiejane]

Originally Posted by katelove 

I am very much a fan of allowing babies to find their own routine. As they get older I do tend to fit our activities around sleep times but that is mainly because I either want to sleep then too or I want some alone time at home to read or watch TV or sew or something. When they're very little (first 6 months or so) I don't mind being out while they sleep because they sleep so often.

And, while some babies naturally sleep through the night quite early, I think the majority need and benefit from some contact with their parent/s over night. Whether that is for feeding or comfort.

My personal experience has been that the best way to get as much sleep as possible is to co-sleep. I find getting up when I'm tired a real chore. It is much more restful for me to be able to stay lying down and maybe even doze while I feed. I also find my babies settled a lot more quickly as they never woke up fully either.

My first child (now 2.5yo) used to wake fairly often to feed o/night. Every 3-4hrs at best with occasional periods of more frequent waking. My new babe (10.5weeks) only wakes once overnight at the moment.

All the parents I know who have tried to impose an external routine on their baby seem to have had much more stress and complained much more of problems than the ones who follow their baby's routine. I'm guessing that if your friend's baby was sleeping through the night at 2 weeks old it was because that was it's natural pattern.

Well we certainly plan to have our baby close to us. Perfect excuse to get a king sized bed  even though we need a new bed anyway. But I'm not sure if I'm going to be hardcore about cosleeping. Will def have to play that one out and see what works for us. We're staying in a one bedroom til babe is at least a year so we'll be sharing a room whether we like it or not. Our apartment is an awkward railroad layout with a teeny living room and middle spaces but I'm grateful for our massive bedroom. I thought about getting a cosleeper, for nights I wanted more space in bed, and just to see if it works for us but my sis said ehhhhhh forget the cosleeper, just have your baby in your bed and then transfer to a crib. Don't think we'll bring a crib in until 6 months though because our perfect spot for it is right in front of where out only a/c unit can go so I need to wait til the fall months when we're not using the a/c anymore :P

My neighbor's baby didn't sleep through the night at 2 weeks. It was 6 weeks. She may have also gotten lucky because her sister tried the methods from the same book with her own baby and her baby did not abide. My neighbor's never complained about the process though. She never had problems. So yea maybe she got lucky, who knows? She thinks it's good for the baby, not just the mama. This method she follows is also just as much pro-pumping as it is pro-nursing. I think to keep supply up. Oh....maybe because the baby nurses less because of the sleep schedule...but then when I was up there the other day she woke up her baby up from a 2 hour nap to nurse her...I dont know, I should ask her. 

The other thing too that my neighbor didn't care about was always having to be home. She isn't really "into" anything as far as personal interests, hobbies, etc, go. We live in an amazing neighborhood in Brooklyn and there is live outdoor, free music 3 blocks from our apartment in the summer. DH and I take full advantage. It's usually a once a week thing in the summer, sometimes less. We can bring in our own food and wine and see great music sitting under the trees in the evening while the lightening bugs are out. This is something DH and I can't wait to be able to do with a little baby because it's walking distance and easy with just one little babe. It's not something I could imagine giving up because I had to be home at a certain time. I'd sit on my blanket and nurse, and if babe falls asleep, he falls asleep. This is where Neighbor and I differ. She would HAVE to be home. I do see the benefit of babe getting used to the same sleeping space, which is something I will strive for, but I still want the flexibility of still being able to enjoy our hood.  

The first year of babe's life I actually don't mind the idea of whatever happens happens. But at around 13 months I start grad school and it would be awesome to be on a schedule by then because I don't operate well on little sleep. 

Edited by Loogiejane - 1/30/13 at 10:02am

[Loogiejane]

And I think in the first year of babe's life, having to be home at certain hours to try out a bit of a routine actually wont be terrible for me. I am never in the car, as we do not own one, and we live a very walking lifestyle. Anything I could ever need I walk to get. It would be hard to feel locked up in the house since I can walk one block in any direction and have anything at my finger tips. So it'll be a nice mix of getting to enjoy being out without having to get in the car, with being able to get home within in 10 minutes for babe's routine. 

So yes, we'll see how it plays out. Sorry for the super long previous post!

Edited by Loogiejane - 1/30/13 at 10:05am

[LilyTiger]

I've been using the No Cry Sleep Solution (or at least parts of it) to transition our 5.5 month old to her crib.  It's worked really well for us.  Very little crying (except right when she wakes up) and when she wakes up in the morning in the crib, I hear her chatting away and playing with her feet.  Co-sleeping for longer than 6 months wasn't an option for us due to space in the bedroom (we have room for a fullsize bed and nothing else) and my husband's preferences.  I found in the process that my daughter sleeps longer periods when she's away from me.  I'm not sure if it's because she smells me when we co-sleep and just assumes milk is always available or what. 

I get up once or twice at night to feed her and she goes right back to sleep.  We've by and large let her set her schedule and we take her for walks and do whatever we need to do with her.  I'm somewhat strict about her first morning nap, because the rest of the day is a disaster if she doesn't get that one in.  Otherwise, she'll nap in the sling or in the car or wherever we are.  

As other mamas have said, I think it really depends on your baby and your personality.  My daughter is very easy going and generally a good sleeper (though we were still up every 2-3 hours for the first few months of her life). 

Finally, as far as bottles go, it really depends on what you need to happen.  We had to get DD on a bottle by around a month so I could sneak out for workouts and such and then go back to work at 4 months.  My friend waited until her son was 5 months to try a bottle and it has been seriously traumatic for them.  She's back at work and he won't eat the entire time she's gone and just screams.  The freedom of being able to pump and have someone else feed her was absolutely necessary for me.  It might not be necessary for you, but if you think it is, most people recommend starting a bottle around 6 weeks so you can get the baby used to it.

[Loogiejane]

Originally Posted by LilyTiger 

I've been using the No Cry Sleep Solution (or at least parts of it) to transition our 5.5 month old to her crib.  It's worked really well for us.  Very little crying (except right when she wakes up) and when she wakes up in the morning in the crib, I hear her chatting away and playing with her feet.  Co-sleeping for longer than 6 months wasn't an option for us due to space in the bedroom (we have room for a fullsize bed and nothing else) and my husband's preferences.  I found in the process that my daughter sleeps longer periods when she's away from me.  I'm not sure if it's because she smells me when we co-sleep and just assumes milk is always available or what. 

My sister had that with her babies. Even once she transferred the baby out of the bed after a few months into a crib in her bedroom she said they woke up more throughout the night because they could smell her and just wanted to her bobos. She said they slept better once in a different room. 

[Loogiejane]

Originally Posted by LilyTiger 

Finally, as far as bottles go, it really depends on what you need to happen.  We had to get DD on a bottle by around a month so I could sneak out for workouts and such and then go back to work at 4 months.  My friend waited until her son was 5 months to try a bottle and it has been seriously traumatic for them.  She's back at work and he won't eat the entire time she's gone and just screams.  The freedom of being able to pump and have someone else feed her was absolutely necessary for me.  It might not be necessary for you, but if you think it is, most people recommend starting a bottle around 6 weeks so you can get the baby used to it.

Even though it won't be the greatest for our finances, I'll be staying home with baby for the first year. Then going to grad school, which will be a part time schedule actually AT school and a fulltime headache of doing research papers in my own time. 

So if I dont want to, I don't *have* to do bottles. Part of me feels badly that DH would never get to feed babe. I know he would really love it even if it was once in a while. DH's sis also lives very close and cannot wait to come babysit. She claims she is going to force us to go out. So I also wonder, if DH and I want to go out for dinner, would it be easier if SIL had the option of a bottle to give babe. I plan to go to LLL meetings before labor to talk to other local mamas and hear their experiences. 

[parsley]

Once I stopped expecting DD1 to follow a routine or sleep on her own or do anything that any book suggested (other than Dr. Sears small section on High Needs babies that I read over and over and over) my life got better, I relaxed and I became a better mom.  

Figuring out sleep issues has been, for me, the very hardest part of parenting.  And, I think a big reason for that (aside from sleep deprivation and the fact that DD1 is a truly terrible sleeper) was that there were so many experts and books that implied that I could fix the problem.   I just needed to do x or purchase y. 

OP, I think that thinking through how you feel about some of these issues before your babe is born makes good sense but I would urge you once you have a babe in arms to remember that your baby is an individual with needs and you two (plus your partner and other caregivers) need to develop a relationship.  One that is healthy and works for all of you.  Not all paths work for all families.

[katelove]

Originally Posted by Loogiejane 

Originally Posted by katelove 

I am very much a fan of allowing babies to find their own routine. As they get older I do tend to fit our activities around sleep times but that is mainly because I either want to sleep then too or I want some alone time at home to read or watch TV or sew or something. When they're very little (first 6 months or so) I don't mind being out while they sleep because they sleep so often.


And, while some babies naturally sleep through the night quite early, I think the majority need and benefit from some contact with their parent/s over night. Whether that is for feeding or comfort.


My personal experience has been that the best way to get as much sleep as possible is to co-sleep. I find getting up when I'm tired a real chore. It is much more restful for me to be able to stay lying down and maybe even doze while I feed. I also find my babies settled a lot more quickly as they never woke up fully either.


My first child (now 2.5yo) used to wake fairly often to feed o/night. Every 3-4hrs at best with occasional periods of more frequent waking. My new babe (10.5weeks) only wakes once overnight at the moment.


All the parents I know who have tried to impose an external routine on their baby seem to have had much more stress and complained much more of problems than the ones who follow their baby's routine. I'm guessing that if your friend's baby was sleeping through the night at 2 weeks old it was because that was it's natural pattern.

Well we certainly plan to have our baby close to us. Perfect excuse to get a king sized bed 
 even though we need a new bed anyway. But I'm not sure if I'm going to be hardcore about cosleeping. Will def have to play that one out and see what works for us. We're staying in a one bedroom til babe is at least a year so we'll be sharing a room whether we like it or not. Our apartment is an awkward railroad layout with a teeny living room and middle spaces but I'm grateful for our massive bedroom. I thought about getting a cosleeper, for nights I wanted more space in bed, and just to see if it works for us but my sis said ehhhhhh forget the cosleeper, just have your baby in your bed and then transfer to a crib. Don't think we'll bring a crib in until 6 months though because our perfect spot for it is right in front of where out only a/c unit can go so I need to wait til the fall months when we're not using the a/c anymore :P

My neighbor's baby didn't sleep through the night at 2 weeks. It was 6 weeks. She may have also gotten lucky because her sister tried the methods from the same book with her own baby and her baby did not abide. My neighbor's never complained about the process though. She never had problems. So yea maybe she got lucky, who knows? She thinks it's good for the baby, not just the mama. This method she follows is also just as much pro-pumping as it is pro-nursing. I think to keep supply up. Oh....maybe because the baby nurses less because of the sleep schedule...but then when I was up there the other day she woke up her baby up from a 2 hour nap to nurse her...I dont know, I should ask her. 

The other thing too that my neighbor didn't care about was always having to be home. She isn't really "into" anything as far as personal interests, hobbies, etc, go. We live in an amazing neighborhood in Brooklyn and there is live outdoor, free music 3 blocks from our apartment in the summer. DH and I take full advantage. It's usually a once a week thing in the summer, sometimes less. We can bring in our own food and wine and see great music sitting under the trees in the evening while the lightening bugs are out. This is something DH and I can't wait to be able to do with a little baby because it's walking distance and easy with just one little babe. It's not something I could imagine giving up because I had to be home at a certain time. I'd sit on my blanket and nurse, and if babe falls asleep, he falls asleep. This is where Neighbor and I differ. She would HAVE to be home. I do see the benefit of babe getting used to the same sleeping space, which is something I will strive for, but I still want the flexibility of still being able to enjoy our hood.  

The first year of babe's life I actually don't mind the idea of whatever happens happens. But at around 13 months I start grad school and it would be awesome to be on a schedule by then because I don't operate well on little sleep. 

Sorry, I misread. I'd say the same about a 6wo though honestly. I think it is unusual for little babies to consistently sleep through the night of their own volition.

After reading some of the other posts I also wanted to say that I think there is a difference between a routine and a schedule. It is possible to have a routine without strict scheduling. We have had a bedtime routine with our oldest child since before she was a year old but the timing is based on her body clock. 18 months ago she was going to sleep at 6:30pm. Now it's 8:30 but we still do the same bath, dinner, lie down together thing.

[thezoolife]

My baby is 6 weeks now and we've been doing our own brand of sleep training which is, every night at 7 we dim all the lights and try to make the apartment "calm and quiet" for the rest of the night. During the day we try to keep it bright and cheery. I listen to NPR pretty much all day so there is constant noise during the day. Overnight I breastfeed on demand but I never turn on the overhead lights and I don't "play" with her like I do during the day. This seems to work to an extent because she has her long wakeful moments during the days and her longer sleeping stretches at night. She still eats every 3-4 hours at night but that's better then the every 2 during the day. 

[sageowl]

When it comes to babies, expect the unexpected.  You may luck out and get a good sleeper--or not so much.  It has nothing to do with what you do, or don't do, it's just the luck of the draw, so to speak. 

Trying to impose a schedule on a baby will only lead to frustration for you both-with babies things change and evolve over time, and you have to be willing to adjust.  Some infants are more "regular" than others, and some kind of "pattern" will probably emerge that you can tweak a bit until it starts to look like a schedule.

I wouldn't worry about it that much (in advance).  You'll figure out something that will work for everyone, whatever that ends up being.  The reality is no matter what you do, it's gonna be rough in the sleep department for awhile, and that's just part and parcel of the whole parenting experience.  It's good to be aware of your options, but keep an open mind.

And no matter what anyone tells you, you don't need to "teach" babies how to sleep, you just encourage it to happen.

[Quinalla]

Honestly, I don't think you can really get a baby on a schedule before 3-4 months (and most closer to 4 months), they just won't do it. You can luck into a baby that sleeps long periods at night or get one you can gently encourage a flexible baby to do so, but if you have a baby that isn't going to, there is no method that will do much before 3-4 months and even then its not guaranteed. So much depends on the temperament of your baby! Some babies can wind themselves down, some need to be heavily parented to sleep, some want to BF every 1-2 hours, some are fine with longer stretches especially when sleeping, some just wake from sleeping often because they are light sleepers, etc. I think your best bet is to read some books/advice so you have some ideas and tools prepared, but then go into it with no expectations or expect to have one who doesn't sleep well and let yourself be pleasantly surprised if you get a "good" sleeper

As far as how scheduled you are, again a lot depends on their temperament and yours. I fell into something in between after the first 3 months or so, a flexible routine as I didn't want to have to be home at a rigid time everyday for nap(s) and have a super strict bedtime, but I also tried to tune into DD and get her to sleep when she was tired, feed her when she was hungry, etc. and watch for when things changed, so she would have 2-3 naps a day at about X times, but if she was tired an hour earlier I went with it and if I really wanted to get out of the house during a typical nap time, I would on occasion. With twins, I do want to be more scheduled this time for my own sanity, so I hopefully I will have at least one flexible baby that I can gently move to the other's schedule, but again I have no expectation for the first 3 months, so hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised!

[Sol_y_Paz]

Not using bottles can be great.  No going to the store to buy and try bottles, no bottle cleaning, sterilizing, bottle nipples, cleaning and storage systems/space issue, pumping parts, expensive pump, pumping storage, waiting for milk to thaw, etc. 

I BF on demand and no "training" was ever needed; I would rather wait it out than let my baby cry it out anyway.  Some nights are harder than others, like one night this week baby was up 6 times (to eat then right back to sleep) but last night wasn't at all, nothing was different .  Sleep like you are used to is not going to happen with a baby around.  What helped us was to figure out what baby likes: swaddling, not swaddling, temp, different clothes, my diet (cow's milk really bothers some babies and this comes out in different ways), lightening, white noise, background noise, rocking, singing, etc. etc.  I think the Happiest Baby on the Block book covers some of that stuff. 

It is so great you are considering different options, but there is no way to really know until you have your baby as they are all different.  Some won't take bottles or paci's regardless, some only like one kind, it really just depends.  Some will somewhat take to parent imposed schedules, some will not. I follow my baby's lead and it has worked out well, we have a routine many days but no strict schedule. 

Edited by Sol_y_Paz - 1/31/13 at 4:37pm

[Sol_y_Paz]

Originally Posted by Loogiejane 
I am never in the car, as we do not own one, and we live a very walking lifestyle. Anything I could ever need I walk to get. It would be hard to feel locked up in the house since I can walk one block in any direction and have anything at my finger tips.

The fresh air sounds nice.  Invest in a baby carrier (we love the Ergo around here, but maybe a Moby might work better for a newborn) and that sounds perfect for getting out and about with your baby. 

Another reason I am not a fan of super strict schedules, I like to have my baby with me to go places during the day, it is nice when baby is flexible and easy to take along.