Radical Unschooler? - Page 2

[ambersrose]

Originally Posted by onatightrope 

FWIW, most of the unparented children I know are not unschooled, radical or otherwise.  

Ambersose-- how old is your daughter?  My thought about that kind of situation is that I need to periodically ask myself if the amount of help I'm giving is age appropriate.  A small child might have trouble reaching paper towels, and therefore might need help cleaning up a spill, but otherwise, I think it's reasonable to give a child the same opportunity to clean up after themselves we would give an adult.  I grew up with kids whose parents loved to swoop in and fix things whenever they made a mistake, and over time, the underlying message was "we don't think you can handle your own problems".  Giving someone a chance to fix their own mistake can be a sign of respect.

I totally agree with what you are saying (both parts).  This was my five year old daughter and all I did to help was get her more napkins to use for the clean up because the few she had were not enough.  I would do the same for an adult.  The only napkins available were the ones in the bathroom down the hall with one of those wave your hand and wait dispensers.  It was not easy to get enough towels at once to clean up the large spill.  The troop leader apologized as well, admitting she was a little over zealous in that situation.  

[starling&diesel]

Thank you for the interesting conversation!  

My oldest is just 4, so it's fascinating to hear from others who have been thinking about this idea for a while.

I get Sandra Dodd's yahoo groups digest, and I'm often flummoxed by the approach and tone of the radical unschoolers on that listserv, and the parenting style in general.  However, I find the perspectives compelling, and I often have an 'ah-ha' moment while reading the posts.  

However, we're not radical unschoolers by any means.  

We limit screen time, we have a bedtime routine (not a set time, but it seems to fall into place within the same hour and a half or so each night) and we have a culture of helping each other in our house (cleaning, tasks, etc).

My permissiveness (if you want to call it that) ends if my child does something mean, hurtful, or simply unkind. Other than that, they're pretty free range!

[sk8boarder15]

My son is only 2.5 but we are unschoolers all the way and there is no "Going to school" or even "doing school" in his forseeable future. We are NOT "Radical Unschoolers" but we are much much more relaxed than most parents of toddlers. Our "Hard" bedtime, is when both mom and dad are going to bed (since hes too young to stay up safely, and he's miserable without sleep, but not old enough to realize that yet). He watches TV and there are no hard limits on it, but he'd much rather be outside so its not really an issue since he only watches it first thing in the morning and after dark most days.

We don't force him to eat or even sit down at dinner, but we don't let him choose to eat ice cream (or other sweets) unless he ate some "real" food for dinner, but if he doesn't like what I made and there is something else available (like a hot dog) I gladly make it for him. 

I dislike labels, no family neatly fits into any label. 

[jpcoffee]

Not sure what label I would use to label use, daughter and I  get on great, best friends!

We don't really have rules, no bed times, no limits on TV, but have understandings, like keep the living areas tidy and starting of with tidy clothes although she does not comb her hair, often. I never punish her and she can be headstrong at times. She sometimes helps but not required to.

[DuckDuckDuck]

Hi everyone, so is there any unparents here?

I have two girls aged 9 and 7 who were brought up quit strictly until last summer, then my marriage broke up and I have gone down deparenting route.
 

Does anyone know of any unparenting forums/sites

[owlhowl]

Define "unparenting"! Never heard of that before!

[owlhowl]

Define "unparenting"! Never heard of that before!

[avismama24]

Hmmm unparenting....can you explain a bit more what you are referring too? Most of us in this thread would define ourselves as RU's (radical unschoolers) or whole life unschoolers, meaning that the unschooling philosphies we apply to educating our children also apply to our daily lives, such as no set chores, bedtimes, eating times, screen time, etc. etc. Is this what you mean when you say unparenting?

[moominmamma]

Unparenting is a term I've usually heard used with derision to describe parents who abdicate their responsibility for facilitating and supporting the development of appropriate social behavior and/or basic life skills in their children. Presumably you're using a different definition?

Miranda

[DuckDuckDuck]

Originally Posted by owlhowl 

Define "unparenting"! Never heard of that before!

I was not the first to use the term on this thread. I am new to this type of parenting and currently on the route as described by avismama, although I don't expect the girls to be perfectly behaved anymore while I hope they will not turn into tearaways

There are days I wish I had not embarked on this route, there are times my mind says one thing why deep down a feeling says the opposite, like allowing the girls to go out shopping in their socks, or saying nothing as they play on escalators in the mall or when they use the occasional swear word. A couple of days ago my oldest pipped up and asked if she can smoke,

Yet it has been an interesting year, watching them change, while I have no regrets so I far wonder where we are going.

[avismama24]

Ah I see Duckduckduck

Check out this blog http://thesparklingmartins.blogspot.com/ by Dayna Martin.....a pioneer of the unschooling movement currently taking place. I think it will make you feel a whole lot better. She just had a great post about swearing ;)

Happy reading!

[DuckDuckDuck]

Originally Posted by avismama24 

Ah I see Duckduckduck

Check out this blog http://thesparklingmartins.blogspot.com/ by Dayna Martin.....a pioneer of the unschooling movement currently taking place. I think it will make you feel a whole lot better. She just had a great post about swearing ;)

Happy reading!

Thanks, had a very quick look today, can not find the post your referred to but will read more thoroughly tomorrow.

[RiverSky]

Originally Posted by DuckDuckDuck 

I was not the first to use the term on this thread. I am new to this type of parenting and currently on the route as described by avismama, although I don't expect the girls to be perfectly behaved anymore while I hope they will not turn into tearaways

There are days I wish I had not embarked on this route, there are times my mind says one thing why deep down a feeling says the opposite, like allowing the girls to go out shopping in their socks, or saying nothing as they play on escalators in the mall or when they use the occasional swear word. A couple of days ago my oldest pipped up and asked if she can smoke,

Yet it has been an interesting year, watching them change, while I have no regrets so I far wonder where we are going.

I have only previously ever heard of the term "unparenting" used with derision, as well, just like Miranda.  I have never met anyone who chose to unparent on purpose.  

I think that respect is a very important thing to model & letting your children play on escalators in the mall isn't very respectful of the rules, the other shoppers, and it's teaching your children to disrespect others property.  Plus, people (adults and children) have died on escalators so I wouldn't advocate doing that.  I have told my children many times to be careful on escalators (beginning with the first time we ever carried a toddler onto one) for safety reasons, and have shown them the safety guidelines posted on the edges of them and we have talked about why certain rules might be listed.  

Of course, it would be great fun to slide down from the top of an escalator railing to the bottom, but modeling that for any 3 or 4 year olds in the area could cause those young children to try it, and get seriously injured.  I think your girls are plenty old enough to discuss what might be the repercussions of playing on escalators and I'm sure they would come up with respectful conclusions without anyone having to scold them (which I don't think would be very respectful).  

I don't think I unparent at all, but do consider us to be radical unschoolers.  I don't impose bedtimes on the children but remind them that we might have a field trip or a club the next morning at 10 or 11, meaning we need to leave by say, 9:15 and we will probably want to pack lunches before we go, so set your alarm for the time you think you need to get up.  When they know they have to get up earlier, they go to sleep earlier.  When they know we are having a day in, then they stay up as late as they want to.  They are respectful and know not to be noisy at night (downstairs neighbors, our 2 year old, us) so it's never an issue.  

Shopping in socks doesn't seem like a big deal to me, depending, except that the Board of Health probably forces the stores to make a "no shoes, no shirts, no shopping" rule, so the girls could get kicked out.  Socks on a escalator probably isn't safe either (I remember reading that a child died on an escalator because her crocs got stuck in the end of it).  Those would be my issues with those things, not anything else.  

[DuckDuckDuck]

So when do you all say "no!"

I think that respect is a very important thing to model & letting your children play on escalators in the mall isn't very respectful of the rules, the other shoppers, and it's teaching your children to disrespect others property.  Plus, people (adults and children) have died on escalators so I wouldn't advocate doing that.  I have told my children many times to be careful on escalators (beginning with the first time we ever carried a toddler onto one) for safety reasons, and have shown them the safety guidelines posted on the edges of them and we have talked about why certain rules might be listed.  

Of course, it would be great fun to slide down from the top of an escalator railing to the bottom, but modeling that for any 3 or 4 year olds in the area could cause those young children to try it, and get seriously injured.  I think your girls are plenty old enough to discuss what might be the repercussions of playing on escalators and I'm sure they would come up with respectful conclusions without anyone having to scold them (which I don't think would be very respectful).

While I get what RiverSky says above RU is all about giving your children so leeway, is it not?

As for the dangers It is like climbing trees, or skiing or horse riding potentially fateful, but is  that the risk you take?

Shopping in socks doesn't seem like a big deal to me, depending, except that the Board of Health probably forces the stores to make a "no shoes, no shirts, no shopping" rule, so the girls could get kicked out.  Socks on a escalator probably isn't safe either (I remember reading that a child died on an escalator because her crocs got stuck in the end of it).  Those would be my issues with those things, not anything else.

We are in Europe so no Board of Health signs, the only place I have seen the no shoes, no shirt no service sign is Costco. The girls especially the younger one loves going out in her socks.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by DuckDuckDuck 

So when do you all say "no!"

I sometimes say that I'm not comfortable with something, or that it feels mean and disrespectful to me, or that it might be interpreted by others to be disrespectful or mean, or that it might be worrying and upsetting others. I try to avoid simply saying no. If I'm talking about them limiting or changing their behaviour I want them to understand the reasons behind that advice. Typically the main reason is empathy, but sometimes safety is part of it too.

"I know you guys are just having fun and you're being careful, but the staff in the store probably isn't used to three kids being noisy and silly in the aisles. I'd be willing to bet they're worrying that you're totally out of control and something is going to get knocked over or broken. So please, tone it down. This is their space and their stuff. No point in worrying them unnecessarily." 

Or "I'm happy with you climbing trees at home. But this is a public park with other parents around, and lots of kids who have probably been told that climbing trees is dangerous. It's going to be really tough on those kids and on their parents if you're madly doing what they believe is dangerous and not allowed. So how about saving it for home?"

Or "There are lots of hills you can ski down. This one has a really steep drop-off with lots of trees at the bottom. If something goes wrong, the stakes are pretty high if you go over the edge. Head injuries are unlikely, but they can be devastating. So pick a different hill, okay? You're stressing me out doing that here, and I want to be able to enjoy my afternoon too."

So I'm not using authority to stop the behaviour. I'm using explanation and empathy to build their understanding of how their behaviour affects others, me included. 

I live barefoot for as much of the year as weather allows and don't force my kids into footwear either. I just make sure that they keep huaraches, sandals or similar in the vehicle so that if we meet up with someone who isn't comfortable with our bare feet we can slip them on.

Miranda

[SpiderMum]

I have a great deal of respect for RU families and I WANT to be like them....but it's admittedly much harder now that I have 2 kids than it used to be. Radical is the goal, but I often fall short. Certain things push my buttons....and certain things aren't safe, so I find myself having to intervene. The big one for me being sibling abuse. No, you CANNOT squeeze your brother around the neck.....yes, that's very nice that you love him and want to hug him....but THINK BEFORE YOU DO IT PLEASE. My 4-year-old often doesn't think things through and I have to jump in and save the "baby". He seems big and sturdy...but he's young and certain things could still hurt him and DD doesn't always get this.

Another thing I struggle with is bedtime.....DH takes it a big farther than I'd like, but I do have to admit DD gets to that point where she's obviously tired and melts over the littlest thing....so we do say "let's get on PJs and read in bed" because we know she'll pass out. She sometime try to stall though because she knows she is THAT tired.

The other issue is splitting myself between the two of them....sometimes I just have to say no to one or the other because I only have 2 hands.

[pickle18]

I find it interesting that certain principles which (IMO) simply fall under AP, end up being labeled RU as children age.  As if there is a magical time when you are supposed to STOP letting your child determine their own feeding and sleeping schedule, or when acknowledging and working with their needs is less important.

To me, it seems to flow organically from one to the next with our spirited toddler.  We've always taken his cues on a whole host of things, certainly including family obligations, whether we go somewhere or cancel, whether an invitation seems to jive with how he is feeling or where he is at in his day.  We rarely imposed top-down "this is what we are doing today and you're just along for the ride" for example - though he couldn't speak, his cues were his input, and it was valued.  And he was always given a heads up on the day's events and upcoming transitions as an infant (we'd ask permission to change his diaper, tell him what was going to happen next, etc. just treated him with respect).

Since he's learned to talk and walk, his input (and veto power) is valued.  We spot him in dangerous situations, but he has few (if any) automatic "no's" or off-limit items (sharp knives being the main one I can think of).  He sleeps and nurses when he wants, he eats what and when he wants, he wears whatever he wants.  He loves to help out, but isn't required to - he has no screen time limits.  Honestly, alot of it has just come about the same way we started babywearing, co-sleeping, and all the rest - based on his needs/temperament, the impossibility of doing things any other way (tried and failed), and a general priority on letting him take the lead on meeting his own needs, even if it's inconvenient.

Could we do that with more than one?  I have no clue.   Perhaps it's part of why we only want one!  So we can continue to parent this way...will it always make this much sense to me as he grows?  I hope so.  For now, it feels perfectly natural to have my role be one of gentle guide, taking the backseat, trusting him.

[owlhowl]

Originally Posted by pickle18 

I find it interesting that certain principles which (IMO) simply fall under AP, end up being labeled RU as children age.  As if there is a magical time when you are supposed to STOP letting your child determine their own feeding and sleeping schedule, or when acknowledging and working with their needs is less important.

^ This really spoke to me! I have been following thia thread and the consensual living thread and trying to implement what I have learned with my three kids. DH & I spoke about it in great detail last night and have decided to both really try to use these approaches. Juat realizing that we seem to be atressed out recently because we are nagging the kids, nagging the kids because we are stressed out.. What a cycle! It was a really freeing momwnt and wr started to laugh when we realized "Who cares if the kids don't want to eat dinner when *we* want them to?! So hopedully this will all.work out. We are a pretty happy & close family, I am really excited for when "radical unschooling" & "consensual living" becomes our natual flow.

[owlhowl]

Oops, mass amount of typos! Smartphone has some serious lag today!

[mama24-7]

Originally Posted by owlhowl 


^ This really spoke to me! I have been following thia thread and the consensual living thread and trying to implement what I have learned with my three kids. DH & I spoke about it in great detail last night and have decided to both really try to use these approaches. Juat realizing that we seem to be atressed out recently because we are nagging the kids, nagging the kids because we are stressed out.. What a cycle! It was a really freeing momwnt and wr started to laugh when we realized "Who cares if the kids don't want to eat dinner when *we* want them to?! So hopedully this will all.work out. We are a pretty happy & close family, I am really excited for when "radical unschooling" & "consensual living" becomes our natual flow.

OT - where the consensual living thread?  I'd like to read it. 

Thanks!
Sus