How do you 'expect' kids to do something, or 'not give them a choice'?

[mambera]

I see many mamas on here say they 'just expect' that their children will do A, B, C, or that they 'don't give them a choice.' 

What are the logistics of this?

I have an almost-4 year-old who this morning did not want to get dressed for preschool.  I tried being funny (hokey pokey), bringing her clothes, encouraging her to choose her own clothes, telling her what a big girl she is and so good at getting dressed by herself, could she show me what a good job she does at getting dressed, etc.  No dice.  Eventually I said I had to go to work and she had to go to school and she was going to get dressed now.  Then we had a huge tantrum.  I physically dressed her (I am barely capable of this, she is big and strong), after which she removed all the clothing while continuing to scream. 

Eventually DH stepped in and played the nice guy, and I left for work.  If he had not been present I would have re-dressed her, dragged her screaming out to the car and strapped her in her seat with no shoes or jacket on, and let her calm down on the way to school.

This seems extreme and not what I picture when I hear I should just be able to 'expect' her to get dressed in the morning.  Also I will not be able to physically do this for much longer.  I can only barely do it now.  (This is not an everyday occurrence - it was more frequent when she was two but now it is only once in a while.  But there are other times when she flatly refuses to do something that I need her to do, and somehow I don't see her growing out of this in general.)

My question is, what are the nuts and bolts of 'setting an expectation' or 'not giving a choice' to a child that do not involve a wrestling match?

TIA

Edited by mambera - 2/13/13 at 11:11am

[katelove]

I will be very interested to see the responses to this because my experience with "I just expect" and "I don't allow" so far have universally translated into "my child has never actually defied me on this one" :-P

[salr]

Seriously. 

I've seen the "waiting for the bus" tactic mentioned.  Apparently if you just stand there and wait, as if you were waiting for a bus, that comes across as "expecting" or "knowing" something will happen and then the kid magically does it.  I haven't had that work yet but I'm interested in hearing what everyone has to say, or learning if I'm misunderstanding this whole bus technique. 

[BellinghamCrunchie]

I really think those parents who just expect something will happen and it actually does must radiate some kind of innate alpha dominance thing. That I don't have. And that can't be translated into a prescription of do this do that say it like this and voila your child will do it.

[elus0814]

I've never once had simply expecting something to be done to consistently work.... or even frequently work. I agree with you that sometimes there just isn't time to do anything but 'force' a kid into their clothes or into their carseat. It's gotten worse the older the kids get. Not only are they now old enough to understand that I can seldom actually force them to do something they don't want to do but they also are giving bad examples to the younger ones. That said, they are now old enough to think that not getting dressed or throwing a fit over something they don't like is not worth their time.

[micah_mae_]

I'd do just what you said. Force them to get dressed and put them in the car. Sometimes there really isn't a choice. People have to go to work, school, appointments..

[Nightwish]

It depends on the age of the kid. With a 3 y/o, I would do what you did.

With my 8 y/o, I take the "waiting for the bus" approach. But with him, it's easier to reason.

[LiLStar]

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie 

I really think those parents who just expect something will happen and it actually does must radiate some kind of innate alpha dominance thing. That I don't have. And that can't be translated into a prescription of do this do that say it like this and voila your child will do it.

Interesting thought. Ever notice at a group gathering of sort, sometimes someone (in charge, an organizer) will say "Hey everybody, can I have your attention?" or something of the effect.. and everyone just keeps on chatting, or a few people listen, but its really hard to get everyone paying attention. And its an awkward thing for the would-be announcer to get a group of adults to pay attention. Then, someone comes along (a friend, assistant, whoever) and just shouts, "Hey! Everyone listen up, ____ has an announcement!" and suddenly.. everyone listens? I'm always the first one, trying to get everyone's attention. I've always wondered if I'd get a little more cooperation from my kids sometimes if I was 2nd type. I'm not sure what it is, or if this is a trait that can be learned. I definitely don't have the innate alpha dominance thing. Reminds me of a time I was teaching a class to 4-5yos once a week (only 3-4) and they walked all over me no matter what I did. At the time I was thinking that I felt like I must give off the vibe of a teenage babysitter who lets them eat ice cream and stay up past their bedtime instead of, as you say, an alpha vibe. 

But yeah, there are times I'm just in shock at how ignored I am as mom sometimes! And I'm sure all parents feel like this, at least sometimes ;) Sometimes I'm just stunned, like, "can't they be just a LITTLE afraid of me?!" 

[Skippy918]

I'm wondering the same thing. DS is 4 and I have to repeat myself many times to get him to do what I need him to do. DH only tells him once and he listens.

[babymommy2]

I think when people say they expect certain things and don't give a choice they mean the kid has consequences for not doing it. The things you need them to do also change as the age changes. Two of children at 2/3/4 would have days they refused to get dressed, or refused to put on Pj's and I forcibly did it for them. What else can you do when you have to go out? If my 2 year old refuses to get in the car seat i have to forcibly practically bend him in half to him seated enough to get the seat belt on, but the only other option is to not pick up the kids from school, which of course is not an option at all, so you just do what you have to do. My older school aged kids always put on a seat belt. It has never once been an issue. by the time they are old enough to put on their own seatbelt it has been years of the same thing, so they never question it. My now 9 year old who would not get dressed wouldn't be caught dead not wearing clothes or wearing  his PJ's at school (I used to threaten that in kindergarten if he didnt' hurry up and get dressed for school and i was fully prepared for him to go to school in him PJ's one day, but he always got dressed at the last minute). Of course there are other things now they don't like to do,  but they have consequences for not doing those things and they know what it is, so they have a choice they have to make.

[One_Girl]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately because I am trying to figure out how to help my assistant figure this out and make it work for her.  As a mom and a preschool teacher I have many things that I just expect to happen and they do happen.  I am not really sure how to explain how to make this successful though because it is just a natural thing to me.  I don't think consequences have much to do with it because I don't often use anything beyond the look and my assistant is forever having to resort to consequences and children still act out with her in ways they won't with me.  I do think consistently following through with what you are asking a child to do has a lot to do with this though.  This is much easier as a teacher than it is as a mother and I definitely have more periods of being ignored as a mom than I do as a teacher. 

[pek64]

I think it is not something that can be explained, because it involves the subconscious.

When my son was young there were things I expected him to understand, such as 'I'd love to buy that, but we need the money for food'. I was totally sincere when I said it, and he never made a fuss. Because it was totally true and completely sincere, and I expected him to realize that, he did. I'm sure subconsciously my attitude was different than a 'that is a piece of junk, and I do not want to buy it' attitude. I wouldn't be able to tell you what was different, but he saw it, every time. Kids respond to subtle signals.

[Linda on the move]

I would have taken her to preschool in her jammies. (Only once did my 3 year old leave the house in jammies. It just never came up again. She did look really cute at the vet appointment in a pink princess nightgown. )

Plan ahead --  all clothes laid out the night before. No choices for her. Just select her clothes, show her where they are, talk about what she will be wearing.

Phrasing -- "once you are dressed, we will Name Of Thing She'll Be Happy About."

Reminder, "first get dressed, then Name of Thing She'll Be Happy About."

You may have to ignore some nonsense from her at first, but ignoring nonsense is a completely gentle thing to do. If you ignore the nonsense, it becomes a lot less interesting to her. Right now, its too much of a game, and you have the power to stop the game.

BTW, did she get enough sleep the night before? Could she be coming down with something?

[LitMom]

I say it, they do it, or there are consequences. Those might be logical, or they might be punitive. But they are consequences, not choices that can be freely chosen between. The only reason it works is because they know that I will follow through. If they think I won't, then they don't bother. It completely sucks about 4 days out of a year when it's being challenged, but one of those days and then they know you mean business the rest of the year until they decide to challenge it again a few months later.

In the morning, I say "Do you have all your gear?" and make DD check and gather (she's nearly 9). For my son, who is 5, I have him help me check and gather stuff for his classes. Sure, they've "defied" me about it now and then, but I don't tolerate that either. Instant time out until it's done. And if that means no breakfast, or lunch, or playground time, or bedtime story, so be it. I allot extra time to have a snack before classes. Always near the class itself, so we will be on time. If they dally getting ready, then no snack time remains. (Sometimes transit throws off snack and the kids haven't dallied. Then we do the snack after class instead.)

We also have rules for proper behavior when unhappy. Stomping=time out and loss of a toy for a day. Door slamming=1 week loss of a toy for every time the door slams. Lost property? Allowance will have to pay for a new one. I've done the "waiting for a bus" and it does work, but I don't know if it would work without fairly strict rules otherwise. 

I don't think it's ever meant missing a meal, but they've missed sleepovers, parties, and playdates. I lift the five year old when needed. I would lift the eight year old if it was needed. On one recent defiant day, my daughter had to sit in a cafe and watch while her brother and I had a cupcake and she got none. She had to call a friend and explain that she had lost the right to a planned sleepover. She had to explain to her father that she couldn't have a bedtime story and why, and she went to bed quite early. She was miserable. She doesn't want to do that again. (She actually needed more sleep, so the early to bed was less of a punishment and more of a "you need to do this," but it wasn't her choice to go to bed early. I sent her there.)

It's not super gentle as it involves time outs and loss of privileges, but we do a ridiculous number of activities, and they are starting to understand the trade off there. Since one of the things that would happen in the real world is that if you're a snot to someone, they don't want to do things for you, I think it's reasonable that if they act like brats, I won't want to do things for them, and hence they won't get cupcakes and cool trips and special gifts. I explained this morning that if they wanted to do all the activities they wished for valentines tomorrow, today would be extremely busy and could NOT involve me dragging whining children around. Whine, and an activity for today is gone. They had a moment here or there, but considering that we accomplished 3 crafts, housecleaning, homeschooling, 6 errands, 2 extracurricular classes, and baths, they were impressively good. They were so well behaved that they were given 4 toys/tchotches for free in two different places, just because they were "so sweet."  

Edited by LitMom - 2/13/13 at 10:06pm

[LitMom]

Originally Posted by mambera 

I see many mamas on here say they 'just expect' that their children will do A, B, C, or that they 'don't give them a choice.' 

What are the logistics of this?

I have an almost-4 year-old who this morning did not want to get dressed for preschool.  I tried being funny (hokey pokey), bringing her clothes, encouraging her to choose her own clothes, telling her what a big girl she is and so good at getting dressed by herself, could she show me what a good job she does at getting dressed, etc.  No dice.  Eventually I said I had to go to work and she had to go to school and she was going to get dressed now.  Then we had a huge tantrum.  I physically dressed her (I am barely capable of this, she is big and strong), after which she removed all the clothing while continuing to scream. 

It's a power struggle. Don't even try being funny, bringing her clothes, encouraging her to choose her own. Refuse to do it. Be bored of it. It will be easier to break with your husband available though. Tell her you're leaving at x o'clock and having breakfast in x minutes. "Get dressed and come have breakfast with me. Then I'll take you to school." Give her the clothes you've chosen. Then go on with your own routine. Don't remind her. Don't nag her. Don't listen to any argument about different clothes. "Shrug. I'm not going to argue with you about what clothes." When she isn't ready, and she won't be on the first day, LEAVE. Tell her calmly that it's time for you to leave, and you're sad you didn't get to have breakfast with her or take her to school. She will probably throw a fit. Just leave. Immediately. Calmly. Let your husband deal with it. The next morning, say the same darn thing. Refuse to discuss it. Refuse to argue about it. Tell her you will be leaving at x and having breakfast at x. "I'd love for you to get dressed and come have breakfast with me. Then I'll take you to school." 

[mambera]

Originally Posted by LitMom 

It's a power struggle. Don't even try being funny, bringing her clothes, encouraging her to choose her own. Refuse to do it. Be bored of it. It will be easier to break with your husband available though. Tell her you're leaving at x o'clock and having breakfast in x minutes. "Get dressed and come have breakfast with me. Then I'll take you to school." Give her the clothes you've chosen. Then go on with your own routine. Don't remind her. Don't nag her. Don't listen to any argument about different clothes. "Shrug. I'm not going to argue with you about what clothes." When she isn't ready, and she won't be on the first day, LEAVE. Tell her calmly that it's time for you to leave, and you're sad you didn't get to have breakfast with her or take her to school. She will probably throw a fit. Just leave. Immediately. Calmly. Let your husband deal with it. The next morning, say the same darn thing. Refuse to discuss it. Refuse to argue about it. Tell her you will be leaving at x and having breakfast at x. "I'd love for you to get dressed and come have breakfast with me. Then I'll take you to school." 

Well, I do leave if I need to leave.  She doesn't generally care.  Usually DH takes her to school in the AM, I was trying to do it yesterday because he had a meeting to get to on time - but since the situation deteriorated he ended up taking her anyway.  There have been occasions when she wanted me to take her to school (which I will do if my schedule allows and she requests it). On those occasions she gets dressed promptly to leave.  On days when she doesn't specifically want me to take her she doesn't have an issue with me leaving without her (since that's our usual routine anyway). 

Also there's an end-of-the-road to the leaving tactic.  If she refuses to get ready to school so DH and I both leave without her, then what?  She can't stay home all day with my ILs and DD2, she would drive my ILs insane and destroy DD2's nap schedule.  *I* don't want that outcome, but she would probably be fine with it, esp since MIL would just let her watch TV all day.

Originally Posted by LitMom 

I say it, they do it, or there are consequences. Those might be logical, or they might be punitive. But they are consequences, not choices that can be freely chosen between. The only reason it works is because they know that I will follow through. If they think I won't, then they don't bother. It completely sucks about 4 days out of a year when it's being challenged, but one of those days and then they know you mean business the rest of the year until they decide to challenge it again a few months later.

In the morning, I say "Do you have all your gear?" and make DD check and gather (she's nearly 9). For my son, who is 5, I have him help me check and gather stuff for his classes. Sure, they've "defied" me about it now and then, but I don't tolerate that either. Instant time out until it's done.

I like this approach and it is the way I would prefer to parent generally.  But I have a lot of trouble implementing.  I do follow through on any warnings but it is inevitably incredibly tiring and disruptive to do so.   And it isn't four days out of the year, it's more like one day in three or so.  (Also in order to do so I often have to argue with my husband who does not understand why consistency is important and is generally a bad combination of 90% indulgent pushover/10% random escalation.)

Eg timeouts: I use them after a count of three for irritating/inappropriate behavior, and without a count for any violence (hitting etc).  I'd say DD1 gets a timeout about once every three days.  The thing is that in order to make the timeout happen I have to drag her kicking and screaming to her room, and either sit there holding her on my lap while she struggles for the entire period of the timeout, or dump her in there and shut the door fast, then stand there holding the door until the timeout is over.  It is incredibly disruptive.  This has been going on for about a year now.  It's not getting better.  What can I do to 'set an expectation' that she comply with a timeout on her own?  I have the same question about some of your other consequences.  Eg if I told DD1 to explain to her dad why she wasn't getting a story, she would just throw a tantrum (or rather escalate the tantrum she was already throwing about being denied the story). 

Edited by mambera - 2/14/13 at 5:44am

[SweetSilver]

I'm enjoying this conversation and will jump in. You are up against your need to get out the door for work.  This is a handicap, and one that cannot be changed.  You have no time for time outs, or much of anything else because of your time constraints.  As far as your specific difficulties, my kids dress in their street clothes for bed.  A bit rumpled?  Sure.  But it eliminates exactly half of all potential power struggles.

As far as your general question, I agree with katelove:

I will be very interested to see the responses to this because my experience with "I just expect" and "I don't allow" so far have universally translated into "my child has never actually defied me on this one" :-P

I have always wondered this myself, and either it is as above, or it is a system of threats and punishments.  I am not entirely innocent of this as well.  We homeschool.  We have few obligations.  So, I get to say "we'll skip gymnastics then".  When I'm in the car and fighting starts, I pull over and sit until the fighting stops.  I have that luxury.  And I have been known, when the kids were portable, to carry them screaming from the house because I was going to explode with another day at home and I knew they were going to have FUN but, being that little, they couldn't get past the the fact that they were getting in the CAR.

As far as expectations go, they get continual reminders of my expectations.  These are ones like "don't call people stupid, no matter how angry you are", "trying to punch your sister but missing is still aggressive and against the rules."  This takes forever, but I have confidence that they will not, at 16 and 18, be almost-punching and calling each other "stupid head".  I expect them to not "throw their grumps around" when feeling angry.  Does that stop them?  Not yet.  Other times I simply state it as fact, and it works.  Go figure.  I have no idea why it works sometimes and not others.

In general, though, I still feel the above quote is quite true.  I asked a similar question in the recent thread on picky eating and didn't get many responses.  The one I did confirmed one suspicion-- she used rewards to get the kids to eat.  

This is especially true when the events of the day are--by design or necessity-- more focused on the needs of the parents than the child.  It is not her choice to leave when you need her to leave.  Both of you work.  This is not her choice.  This isn't necessarily your choice either--but it is most definitely not hers.  Whenever we are faced with a similar dynamic, there we will meet the most resistance.  So, to "expect" something without rewards or punishments, you need to talk with her.  At bedtime, you need to tell her what she needs to expect in the morning.  Let her know that you understand it upsets her not to be given a choice in the matter, but you can do whatever to make it easier to get out the door.  Ask her why she fights you so much--you might be surprised and she might tell you.  Or she might say "Did you know the Tooth Fairy rides a butterfly?"  And you say "I need you to listen.  You can wear tomorrow's clothes tonight ----wouldn't that be silly????  And I thought about eating breakfast at night, too, but that doesn't work very well. When we get in the car, would you like an second breakfast and have a granola bar?  What can we pack tonight for you to do in the car on the way?"  Etc.  Then, get her in the car, no matter what.  No shoes (pack'em) no breakfast (pack it, offer it in the car, beg the teacher to offer it at school) no coat (pack'em and let the teacher handle this) if need be.

Also, ask dh to let you get this, start to finish.  Maybe he can help you get her out the door with you, but don't let him swoop in to save you.  If nothing else, you need to gain the confidence that you can do this.  Because--and I'm sure of this--sometimes it really just is that presence that subconsciously soothes the whole situation.  If I had a clue as to when this was going to work and when it wasn't, I think I'd be rich.

[LitMom]

Originally Posted by mambera 

Well, I do leave if I need to leave.  She doesn't generally care.  Usually DH takes her to school in the AM, I was trying to do it yesterday because he had a meeting to get to on time - but since the situation deteriorated he ended up taking her anyway.  There have been occasions when she wanted me to take her to school (which I will do if my schedule allows and she requests it). On those occasions she gets dressed promptly to leave.  On days when she doesn't specifically want me to take her she doesn't have an issue with me leaving without her (since that's our usual routine anyway). 

Also there's an end-of-the-road to the leaving tactic.  If she refuses to get ready to school so DH and I both leave without her, then what?  She can't stay home all day with my ILs and DD2, she would drive my ILs insane and destroy DD2's nap schedule.  *I* don't want that outcome, but she would probably be fine with it, esp since MIL would just let her watch TV all day.

Then just take her in whatever state of undress she's in, with her clothes in a bag. It should be embarrassing for her. If you stick to it 100%, it will decrease. If you stick to it 90%, she will keep doing it, worse and worse, and longer and longer, because she's being given intermittent rewards to do so, which are generally the most reinforcing. I don't follow Dr. Phil, but this article talks about the intermittent reinforcement and power struggle aspect: http://www.drphil.com/articles/article/163

[LitMom]

Originally Posted by mambera 

I like this approach and it is the way I would prefer to parent generally.  But I have a lot of trouble implementing.  I do follow through on any warnings but it is inevitably incredibly tiring and disruptive to do so.   And it isn't four days out of the year, it's more like one day in three or so.  (Also in order to do so I often have to argue with my husband who does not understand why consistency is important and is generally a bad combination of 90% indulgent pushover/10% random escalation.)

Eg timeouts: I use them after a count of three for irritating/inappropriate behavior, and without a count for any violence (hitting etc).  I'd say DD1 gets a timeout about once every three days.  The thing is that in order to make the timeout happen I have to drag her kicking and screaming to her room, and either sit there holding her on my lap while she struggles for the entire period of the timeout, or dump her in there and shut the door fast, then stand there holding the door until the timeout is over.  It is incredibly disruptive.  This has been going on for about a year now.  It's not getting better.  What can I do to 'set an expectation' that she comply with a timeout on her own?  I have the same question about some of your other consequences.  Eg if I told DD1 to explain to her dad why she wasn't getting a story, she would just throw a tantrum (or rather escalate the tantrum she was already throwing about being denied the story). 

I'd say the reason it's going on for a year is because it's so exhausting and you or your husband give in that 10% of the time. So she knows if she pushes hard enough, she'll win. I've held doors shut, but I don't hold it the whole time for time outs. In the room, door closed. I used the bathroom as a secondary time out spot until this year because the kid bedroom had no door. Won't go? Leave time out? Bathroom. More boring and less comfy. Made their screaming echo badly and hurt their own ears too. Conveniently, when they were 4-ish they couldn't unlock the door themselves, so that was easy to lock and then shut the door. 

The other thing is to just avoid power struggles as much as possible. Refuse to argue about what she wears. If it's horribly inappropriate, let her be cold/hot/get wet feet within reason. If it's really really inappropriate wear, pack a decent outfit or proper shoes for her to change into at school.

It's also age. It was worse at 4 for both my kids. They're 5.5 and nearly 9 now, so they know the routines of punishments and time out expectations. Some of it you just have to ride out. I told my son for a while that he couldn't eat dinner with us, because he always found something to throw a fit about--he didn't like the way the napkin was positioned, whatever. He had a number of dinners alone for a while. 

I don't mean to sound like it's all fine now, because we still have plenty of hard times and arguments. But I'd say the really really bad days are months apart now. 

[SweetSilver]

If we are keeping responses within the philosophy of Gentle Discipline, I would say this doesn't sound all that Gentle to me.