How do you 'expect' kids to do something, or 'not give them a choice'? - Page 6

[moving toward]

my dd is 3 and has a firecracker personality - we manage by always giving a choice - normally do you want the blue or red shirt etc. But yes sometimes the choice is do you want to get dressed and go to school or do you want me to dress you and carry you to school crying? I'm not proud of it but my dd also responds well to the ok well you stay home by yourself and I'll go to school thing, - works in a multiple variety of situations.

The most succesful thing is the 1,2 3 approach, ie: please stop watching tv to do..,

i asked you to stop watching tv, If I ask you again I'm turning it off,

tv turned off. No punishments ever - but relatable consequences - if there isn't a logical consequence then I really question if there is a need to intervene at all.

I think also at some point you have to accept that pc or not - you are the parent and the leaders of the household and things need to be done, and just do them even if there is a back drop of crying. I made it very clear to my dd from birth pretty much that she will never be made to do anything that wasn't essential so if I'm telling her it has to be done then i mean it. (ie you must bath at least once a week, but daily would be better or you must wash your hair before going to the hairdresser)

So far we haven't had to use time out. I am not an "alpha mom" , I don't hit and I don't yell - but I do have a tone, and facial expression that lets her know that while her opinions are considered very helpful, I have the final say.

oh i forgot to add - I really do pick my battles - I have very low expectations of behaviour and I'm forever amazed at how well she does. My first thought is always - approach with kindness, we go from there...

Edited by moving toward - 4/23/13 at 7:39pm

[gardenmommy]

I have 5 children.  I am not a perfect parent.  I am not perfectly calm and patient all of the time.  (Is anyone, haha?)  Generally speaking, this is what works for us:  1) we try to keep our rules simple: be respectful of other people, listen and respond appropriately, ask mom/dad before doing something/going somewhere outside the house (safety stuff); 2) make the expectations known before the situation starts (when we get in the car, we will buckle up, when we get to the store, we will all stay together, etc.) 3) lay out the consequences for failing to meet the expectations.  

I think a big part of successful parenting/discipline is communicating your expectations to the child in an age-appropriate manner.  If you want your child to not jump on your furniture, then let them know that the couch is for sitting on, they can jump on the tramp, or whatever.  When we have to be out the door early in the morning, I will tell the children what time we need to leave, remind them to get their gear together before bed, and help them figure out what they need to do to be ready on time.  If I need the older children to help with the younger children, I let them know exactly what I need them to do.  I have one child who is an expert dawdler, so I will build in extra time (I don't tell her this, it is just my own sanity saver) for her, and set a visual timer to give her a reminder of how much time she has (a reminder that is not *me* nagging at her).

When life doesn't go as planned (which is frequently with 5 children, let me tell you), I try as much as possible to let natural consequences take over.  Ex:  if you don't get out of bed and get dressed on time, you will not have time for breakfast (or maybe only have time to grab a banana for the road).  If you failed to practice your piano lesson, you will have to explain to your teacher why you don't know your lesson (or if it's really bad, you will have to call your teacher and explain why you won't be there for your lesson).  If you decided to ignore mom's advice to wear your boots in the mud, you will have to clean your shoes.  It is ok to let children fail and feel the consequences.  We learn a lot from our mistakes, even though it is often not particularly pleasant.  I don't mind allowing my children to struggle a little, or feel a little pain from their failures (even though I would rather they not have to deal with that).  IMO, it is an important part of learning to live in the real world.  Small doses of failure prepare them to handle life in a mature fashion.

If there isn't a direct natural consequence, sometimes I will assign an extra chore.  If the offense had to do with a sibling, I might tell the offender to serve the other sibling in some manner (straighten their shoes, clear their place after dinner, etc.)  My littlest ones often have major attitude issues over very little things.  I'm sure you are well aware that it is impossible to reason with them at that point, lol.  If they are completely out of control, I make them spend time in their rooms until they have calmed down enough to talk.  Someone pointed out that with all their toys, it isn't really punishment to put them in their rooms.  My response was that punishment isn't my goal; I just want them to calm down enough to communicate with me.  I have found that often just getting on their level, listening to their concerns, validating their emotions and experiences goes a long way towards short-circuiting their tantrums (not always, of course).  Sometimes, I just let them scream until they are done.  Sometimes, I have to walk away in order to not physically harm them, because I have completely run out of patience.  

I think the bottom line in "expecting" your child to do something is telling them.  Repeatedly.  Consistently.  Frequently.  And either finding some consequence to not meeting the expectation that you can both live with, or a positive thing for succeeding. (Carrot and stick, every child's currency is different.)   Children need to know what is expected (they have very little control of their lives, and it helps them feel secure to know where their boundaries are), and what will happen if they don't do it.    No one is perfect, but if you can give them control in small choices, let them know what you need, and respond appropriately when they fail, life will be much smoother for everyone.  The other thing is that when they DO meet your expectations, let them know!  We all like to know when we have succeeded, and children are no different.  Children want to please their parents, and when they do the right thing, it is equally important to let them know (or more so) as disciplining them when they don't do the right thing.  I don't think there is a miraculous way to  get your children to do what you expect, it takes a lot of work to help them learn how to behave appropriately, and it is important to remember that there will be plenty of failures along the way.

[gardenmommy]

I forgot to add in my long novel above, that I also really try to focus on positive statements:  sit on the chair, instead of don't stand on the chair; or, walk in the house, instead of no running.  I find that to be a lot more effective in directing my children's behaviour.  I also had an epiphany one day about the way I speak to my children.  It occurred to me that I was speaking to my children in an incredibly disrespectful manner, in a way that I would never address my husband, friends, parents, etc.  I decided that if I wouldn't speak to another adult in that manner, why would I do that to my child, who is far more precious to me, and still learning about relationships?  That understanding dramatically altered my perception of my interactions with my children.  Like I said in my earlier post, I am not perfect (not even close), but I do attempt to approach discipline from a respectful standpoint.  One day, my children will be grown up, and I would like to be their friend at that point.  

[pek64]

Originally Posted by gardenmommy 

I forgot to add in my long novel above, that I also really try to focus on positive statements:  sit on the chair, instead of don't stand on the chair; or, walk in the house, instead of no running.  I find that to be a lot more effective in directing my children's behaviour.  I also had an epiphany one day about the way I speak to my children.  It occurred to me that I was speaking to my children in an incredibly disrespectful manner, in a way that I would never address my husband, friends, parents, etc.  I decided that if I wouldn't speak to another adult in that manner, why would I do that to my child, who is far more precious to me, and still learning about relationships?  That understanding dramatically altered my perception of my interactions with my children.  Like I said in my earlier post, I am not perfect (not even close), but I do attempt to approach discipline from a respectful standpoint.  One day, my children will be grown up, and I would like to be their friend at that point.  

Yes to all the above!!

[doctoreleanor]

yes to all said

Over the years I realize that we rely so much on speech. the words we use. and the positive word does not seem to come easily. It takes some thinking to always come up with a positive way of saying it. Encouragement . That's the key. As you said it's over and over again but always with a new little something of encouragement. If toddlers especially did not have us to try out their new tricks, words, facial expressions on, what would they do. Also they are copying just what they see around them. So if they see negativity then they think that's it. Many of us send the little ones off to day care. There it's all about routine and regularity in a pleasant way. Then they come home. It's a great chance for them to see if they can get away with some trick they saw at daycare with out getting in trouble. We always fall for it (smile). It's not an easy task but as we relax and think about being positive in our speech suddenly you see it all going the way we would like it. 

[pek64]

The subconscious does not understand the words "not" or "try" . Young children make most, if not all, their decisions from the subconscious. Therefore, it is important to word things in the positive (avoiding the word "not"), so as to best communicate with young children. And they are more likely to do what we ask, as well. It could be a simple matter of not hearing the "not".

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Has it been mentioned yet that maybe your DC just needs to break down from time to time as some sort of release?  

[swd12422]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama 

Has it been mentioned yet that maybe your DC just needs to break down from time to time as some sort of release?  

I agree with this. I think it's really important to remember, especially when they're having fits about things that strike us as strange. I have one who does this: You can make a consequence of no dessert b/c he wasn't using nice table manners and he's fine. But send him to timeout for throwing toys (EVERY DAY), and sometimes he'll have a complete breakdown.

I also agree with eliminating the struggle and just laying out the expectations for her. This is how the morning is going to go; you can do your part, or you can see what happens when you don't. You don't come and eat breakfast when I say to? You don't get to eat. We don't take food in the car. You don't want to turn of the TV and get dressed? That's okay. I'll help turn off the TV, and you go get dressed. No? Well, we're leaving in five minutes, whether you're ready or not. Then gather up the clothes (or not) and put them in the car in whatever they're wearing, and off to school. Then IF the teachers feel like helping them get dressed, they can. Otherwise, it's school-in-PJs day. That has only happened once in my house. The boys were feeding off each other and decided that they could gang up on my. One insisted the whole way to school what fun it was, the other cried desperately. I sent the first into class in his PJs and he came home dressed in his clothes, saying, "I'm never doing THAT again." The other managed to get his clothes on so fast in the car that he was dressed by the time it was time to get out and get into his class. He never argued again either. And these are kids who argue about EVERYTHING, and still do. Until they see the consequences. The minor stuff that "only" gets a timeout is still an issue. But then, they're kids, not robots.

[pek64]

Originally Posted by swd12422 

I agree with this. I think it's really important to remember, especially when they're having fits about things that strike us as strange. I have one who does this: You can make a consequence of no dessert b/c he wasn't using nice table manners and he's fine. But send him to timeout for throwing toys (EVERY DAY), and sometimes he'll have a complete breakdown.

I also agree with eliminating the struggle and just laying out the expectations for her. This is how the morning is going to go; you can do your part, or you can see what happens when you don't. You don't come and eat breakfast when I say to? You don't get to eat. We don't take food in the car. You don't want to turn of the TV and get dressed? That's okay. I'll help turn off the TV, and you go get dressed. No? Well, we're leaving in five minutes, whether you're ready or not. Then gather up the clothes (or not) and put them in the car in whatever they're wearing, and off to school. Then IF the teachers feel like helping them get dressed, they can. Otherwise, it's school-in-PJs day. That has only happened once in my house. The boys were feeding off each other and decided that they could gang up on my. One insisted the whole way to school what fun it was, the other cried desperately. I sent the first into class in his PJs and he came home dressed in his clothes, saying, "I'm never doing THAT again." The other managed to get his clothes on so fast in the car that he was dressed by the time it was time to get out and get into his class. He never argued again either. And these are kids who argue about EVERYTHING, and still do. Until they see the consequences. The minor stuff that "only" gets a timeout is still an issue. But then, they're kids, not robots.

Why should the teachers get saddled with the consequences?!? It's not the teacher's fault!

[swd12422]

Originally Posted by pek64 


Why should the teachers get saddled with the consequences?!? It's not the teacher's fault!

"Then IF the teachers feel like helping them get dressed, they can. Otherwise, it's school-in-PJs day."

What part of IF makes it the teachers' fault? If they don't have the time, desire, or ability to get the clothes on the kids, then they don't have to. I don't really care. And the only reason I even provided clothing for them to change into was so that the CHILD could dress himself when he felt like it. And he felt like it. And did it all himself. So the teachers didn't have to do anything. I let them know it was more than okay with me if I picked him up and he was still in his jammies. It was HIS choice. Not mine, not the teachers'. It's not even really a consequence. It's, "It's time to get dressed if you want to be wearing clothes when we leave. No? Okay. Your choice, but we're leaving in 5 minutes." I don't care what they do. I have a meeting I'm not going to be late for just b/c a child has his own agenda. He can have it on his own terms, just as I have mine.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I posted this and thought the OP may want to read the article: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1382709/there-is-not-always-a-fix-for-the-difficult-child

[pek64]

I read the article, and it got me thinking. From the child's perspective, it's the mother being difficult. More accurately, it is a difficult relationship. Like the person who is nails on a chalkboard for you, but it the best friend of a good friend of yours. You wonder, "How can that be?" But it is. Some personalities chafe. Others mesh. Is there blame? I don't think so.

[cynthiamoon]

::taking notes::

[ilovemygirl]

I haven't read the replies so I apologize if I'm repeating.

I am exactly that parent who says that she expects certain things and doesn't give choices. I will admit that I seem to be blessed with a child who was born with a fairly calm and agreeable personality. I'm no expert but this is what I do/did ... 

I never ever bribe.

DD does things because she wants to, she has been taught it's the right thing to do, or has been taught it's something that just needs to be done. I think it's a horrible precedent to set that you should only do something because you are rewarded. I believe it encourages selfishness. Also, at some point, won't we run out of reasonable things to offer? As kids get older a cookie isn't going to cut it anymore. 

I do encourage good behavior. I say positive things for positive actions like -that was so nice of you for helping your friend or setting the table - and I do say thank you often for helpful things done. 

I never ever hit, do not use my size over her or threaten/scare her with unreasonable consequences like permanent loss of toys she really loves. To me there's a big difference between sit and calm down for five minutes and do what I say or I'll throw your lovey away.

I never ever pose something as a question or choice if it is not one. 

Unless there is a choice, I do not present it as one. If need her to get dressed - I say, please get dressed. If I need her to brush her teeth, I say, please brush your teeth. There is no discussion, there is no fighting, no negotiating. If she threw a tantrum, I would just walk away. If she was truly upset, I would recognize her feelings, let her know I understood she was frustrated and would give a simple explanation as to why it needed to be done and then say again, please do so and so. 

On the flip side of this, I give choices that are actually available as often as possible. Do you want this instead of that for lunch? This game or this book? Especially when she was little, I tried really hard to find ways to make her feel like she had some say in things.    

I'm trying to figure out the right way to word this. I am not afraid to impose my beliefs on my child. I've heard a lot of talk in AP circles about not influencing your children and letting them learn everything on their own so they can be their own person, not forcing your views of the world on them, never make them feel guilty, etc. I don't believe in that. I think there are certain things that are just completely unacceptable. They are just bad things to do, you should feel badly when you do them and I think even young children can understand that.  Like hurting others, physically or emotionally. I wouldn't say I would shame a child but I think a child (or anyone for that matter) should feel badly when they've hurt someone or broken a major rule. It's actually kind of bizarre to me why anyone wouldn't want that reaction. I don't mean to dwell and feel awful to the point of depression but to instill a value system in children that others rights and feelings are just as valid as their own and need to be respected at all times.

I think the biggest thing for me though is mutual respect. I truly believe in my heart that even though I can be firm with rules and can achieve a desired outcome just by a look sometimes, that dd behaves the way she does because I always try my best to be respectful of her. I expect her not to hit so I never hit, I expect her not to yell at me, so I try my hardest to never raise my voice at her. If I do, I admit I am wrong and I give a real apology. She has a good relationship with dh but he does not talk to her the same way I do and I notice a big difference in how she responds to him. When they disagree about something, she uses a tone she would never use with me.

Now that she's six there is a lot more give and take in our relationship. I want her to be patient and wait nicely when I need to finish something so if she asks me for time to finish a game or something before we go out I try my hardest to accommodate that. I let her know how much her feelings matter to me. She has a lot more control over her free time now. She knows the outer limits of things she should and shouldn't be doing and I trust her to act within those so she doesn't feel micromanaged or like she has no choices. I go out of my way to find things she will enjoy and take her to places she will find interesting, etc. I homeschool -so we are together all the time- and we can go days, maybe even a week or so without there being an issue between us. 

Wow... I didn't mean to go on like that. I'm pregnant and have insomnia!

[gardenmommy]

Originally Posted by ilovemygirl 

I haven't read the replies so I apologize if I'm repeating.

I am exactly that parent who says that she expects certain things and doesn't give choices. I will admit that I seem to be blessed with a child who was born with a fairly calm and agreeable personality. I'm no expert but this is what I do/did ... 

I never ever bribe.

DD does things because she wants to, she has been taught it's the right thing to do, or has been taught it's something that just needs to be done. I think it's a horrible precedent to set that you should only do something because you are rewarded. I believe it encourages selfishness. Also, at some point, won't we run out of reasonable things to offer? As kids get older a cookie isn't going to cut it anymore. 

I do encourage good behavior. I say positive things for positive actions like -that was so nice of you for helping your friend or setting the table - and I do say thank you often for helpful things done. 

I never ever hit, do not use my size over her or threaten/scare her with unreasonable consequences like permanent loss of toys she really loves. To me there's a big difference between sit and calm down for five minutes and do what I say or I'll throw your lovey away.

I never ever pose something as a question or choice if it is not one. 

Unless there is a choice, I do not present it as one. If need her to get dressed - I say, please get dressed. If I need her to brush her teeth, I say, please brush your teeth. There is no discussion, there is no fighting, no negotiating. If she threw a tantrum, I would just walk away. If she was truly upset, I would recognize her feelings, let her know I understood she was frustrated and would give a simple explanation as to why it needed to be done and then say again, please do so and so. 

On the flip side of this, I give choices that are actually available as often as possible. Do you want this instead of that for lunch? This game or this book? Especially when she was little, I tried really hard to find ways to make her feel like she had some say in things.    

I'm trying to figure out the right way to word this. I am not afraid to impose my beliefs on my child. I've heard a lot of talk in AP circles about not influencing your children and letting them learn everything on their own so they can be their own person, not forcing your views of the world on them, never make them feel guilty, etc. I don't believe in that. I think there are certain things that are just completely unacceptable. They are just bad things to do, you should feel badly when you do them and I think even young children can understand that.  Like hurting others, physically or emotionally. I wouldn't say I would shame a child but I think a child (or anyone for that matter) should feel badly when they've hurt someone or broken a major rule. It's actually kind of bizarre to me why anyone wouldn't want that reaction. I don't mean to dwell and feel awful to the point of depression but to instill a value system in children that others rights and feelings are just as valid as their own and need to be respected at all times.

I think the biggest thing for me though is mutual respect. I truly believe in my heart that even though I can be firm with rules and can achieve a desired outcome just by a look sometimes, that dd behaves the way she does because I always try my best to be respectful of her. I expect her not to hit so I never hit, I expect her not to yell at me, so I try my hardest to never raise my voice at her. If I do, I admit I am wrong and I give a real apology. She has a good relationship with dh but he does not talk to her the same way I do and I notice a big difference in how she responds to him. When they disagree about something, she uses a tone she would never use with me.

Now that she's six there is a lot more give and take in our relationship. I want her to be patient and wait nicely when I need to finish something so if she asks me for time to finish a game or something before we go out I try my hardest to accommodate that. I let her know how much her feelings matter to me. She has a lot more control over her free time now. She knows the outer limits of things she should and shouldn't be doing and I trust her to act within those so she doesn't feel micromanaged or like she has no choices. I go out of my way to find things she will enjoy and take her to places she will find interesting, etc. I homeschool -so we are together all the time- and we can go days, maybe even a week or so without there being an issue between us. 

Wow... I didn't mean to go on like that. I'm pregnant and have insomnia!

Very nicely said.  

[Triniity]

didn't read every post, so sorry if there are repititions..

first, my two older kids have adhd, that comes, apparently with a good dose of oppositional behaviour. i never wanted to walk the consequences and punishment path, but sometimes just don't have another way 

we had a situation like taht were i could not get ds dressed, but had too. i took him with me without cloth, and it was horrible, he was crying so badly. at the preschool i asked him if he was ready to get dressed, and he was, so, he got dressed. But he was still crying and being ashamed, and I did not like this approach at all. There was no other option though, so I explained that to him, and kissed him and made up with him, and left. 

In general we try to do "democratic parenting" (thomas gordon way) and so afterwards we had a conference about morning routines, and what to do about this dressing problem. We came to an agreement: 

1. we choose the stuff in the evening. He can choose what he wants to wear. 

2. If he fails to get his stuff ready, he can ask for help, and a parent will get him things.

3. If he forgets to choose his clothing, and only remembers in the morning, Mom or Dad are going to choose, and he has to put the clothing on 

He agreed and signed it. No problems since. (he is four btw) at least not with dressing ;) but the undressed to preschool was pretty traumatic for him. 

in my experience, it is very, very important to not get into power struggles with these strong willed kids. they win :)

Oh, and P.S.: I am one of these alpha personalities. If I say: Everybody listen to me! everybody does. Except my kids. So, that doesn't help. They are alpha personalities, too