Aside from the normal objections

[aggie pop]

A significant part of the reason I am so against vaccination is because it is incredibly painful to the baby.  This is also why we forego any testing in Mama or Baby.  I am curious if the "assault", the violation of so many "well-baby visits", of so many needles angers anyone else.  I just can't imagine doing that to my child... repeatedly being stabbed and allowing someone to hurt my child physically (this is adjunct to the medical implications- I am well into that camp).  I also don't understand why parents who do vaccinate don't opt for titers instead of, say, 5 doses of something they may not "need" to bring the acceptable antibody level up to prove to the school/state that they are "immune".  IIRC something like 80% of children get up tpo that magic titer number with just one dose (depending on the vaccine- I am a little out of date- my oldest is 7).

I really don't want to fight- it's just a question. I sometimes wonder if I would "vaccinate" my children if it was a magic strawberry  (or something pleasant) that had the same inefficiency as shots/needles to get through bureaucracy and if there were no side-effects.

I only got 7 vaccines as a kid (MMR, polio (oral), DTP - oh, and a tetanus booster that REALLY hurt for 3 days - and now I have autoimmune disease...).    Receiving 7 shots as children my age did in NY at the time, nobody I knew died... anyway, those annual fingerpricks and the tetanus booster are the ones I remember and I remember feeling so violated and out of control- that my body was not mine, even at such a young age.

A

Edited by aggie pop - 2/16/13 at 2:31pm

[pers]

You posted this in anti-vax forum, but with asking why parents who vax don't opt for titers instead, you seem to be wanting some vax input?  Did you mean to post this in debates?

Anyway, yes, it sucks to do it (though it's absolutely nothing compared to what premies, kids who need spinal taps,  kids who have heart problems and need surgery, etc., go through), but it's pretty quick.  Mine have always cried for a minutes then got over it.. though my then our year old watched the needle go in for his H1N1 shot he announced that it had't hurt.. I thought mine hurt!).  Some kids are sore or cranky/not feeling well for a bit afterwards... but if you are going to talk discomfort rather than serious complications, I remember not being able to swallow without a lot of pain because I had chickenpox in my throat.    I know there are many reasons why people think it better to have natural chickenpox than the vaccine, but again, if we are limiting the discussion to less serious aspects such as the pain of the shot and the mild reactions they normally warn you may sometimes happen, it's worth even to avoid the suckiness of being sick and miserable for a week (also, I had Chickenpox over Christmas and missed out on a bunch of fun family outings with visiting-cousins as a result).

As for titers... I had a blood draw done on my youngest at about 18 months because we were worried his iron might be low.  I used EMLA cream before, but still, having to hold him down while it took them a while to find a vein, which took longer than I expected?  Maybe others have an easier time, but for us it was awful, and he was way, way, way more upset afterwards than he'd ever been following a shot.  Those are just over with so quickly. I can''t imagine doing that for titers and then finding the kid needs the shot anyway.  

[kathymuggle]

It is part of the reason - but a minor part. I would not vaccinate even if the vaccine came in the form of strawberry.

Even if I vaccinated, I would space out the vaccines.  I can only imagine how nauseous I would feel if I had 6 needles in a few minutes (which is what a child gets at either the 12 or 18 month visit - I cannot remember).

Honestly, I  think about 1/2 the vaccines are given in the name of keeping diseases from returning (as opposed to a current risk) so there is little risk in spacing those out.

That being said, some older kids really dread needles.  If you are going to do it anyways, it might be better for them to dread 4 visits instead of eight.  This might come down to knowing your kid.  

[Taximom5]

I honestly don't think that transient pain of a needle prick is a valid concern.

Many things that are potentially beneficial cause transient pain.

The important issue is that vaccines are neither as beneficial nor as safe as the manufacturers pretend.  A pain-free version does not diminish the risk, and is absolutely no comfort to someone whose child is killed or disabled by the vaccine.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Aggie Pop, 

This is the INV forum as I'm sure you know. Your post reads a little like a like a rhetorical wondering to me, which is totally OK here in INV. If you feel like you want the perspective of both those who choose to vaccinate and those who do not, you may/should post in Vax Discussion and Debate to get both perspectives. 

Pers, I am going to ask that you give Aggie Pop the benefit of the assumption that she meant to post here and that her wondering about those who do vaccinate was more of a rhetorical question. While we certainly ask that members in INV not post in such a way to suggest that those who choose to vaccinate are uninformed or irresponsible, Aggie Pop's post does not suggest that. I ask that if you are not seriously considering not vaccinating, you edit your post and reserve your comments if Aggie Pop decides to post in D & D for the input of those who choose to vaccinate.

  

I'm Not Vaccinating - This is a support-only forum for those not or those seriously considering not vaccinating. Here we host discussion of issues that arise when choosing to not vaccinate and sharing of resources and information that are related to the no-vax decision. Members who are vaccinating should not post here to debate or argue accuracy or opinion of things posted. 

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

Many things that are potentially beneficial cause transient pain.

Yeah - but some people do space out transient pain so the child is more comfortable.  I am unlikely to allow 6 blood draws in different spots on the same day (unless timing was really crucial).  I would space them out and give the child a break.  I know that dentists often do not do a whole bunch of dental work on one day - and decreasing discomfort is one of the goals.

There is more than just the needle prick that is the issue with vaccines.  Mild fever and painful injection sites are common reactions to vaccines.  I don't want my baby having a bunch of painful injection sites on the same day.

I suspect from previous conversations that you do not like this line of thought.  I do get it.  My objections to vaccines have nothing to do with a needle prick or even common, mild reactions.  They have everything to do with lack of established safety wrt vaccines.   That being said, even if I did believe in vaccines, I would still not turn my kid into a pin cushion. I think there is a more compassionate route than 6 injections on one day.  

[aggie pop]

Hm, my reply was a bit too critical of vaccination, so I am re-writing it.  I will try again.  Apologies if the earlier one appears at some point and thank you IdentityCrisisMama for pointing out that it was critical.  I expected a support forum for non-vaccination to be tolerant of criticisms of people who do vaccinate.  Regardless, I hope this is more acceptable.

Moving on:

No, there is no mistake about where I meant to post this; my vaccine debate days are long-gone.  It is just rhetorical musing.  I like to challenge my own decisions and am constantly re-thinking.  My decision on vaccines has never wavered, but I have often wondered how to logically "help" people who vaccinate to be more mindful of what they are subjecting their children to.  Since this is INV, I don't need to explain any of that). I am not seeking input of those who vaccinate and certainly wish to avoid conflict (performance anxiety thing!).

A father on NYC API yahoo group circa 2005/06 replied something to the effect of "I would much rather do that (give my son 30 shots), but my insurance won't pay for a titre..."  Plus, all those nasty adjuvants and recombinant DNA (etc.) do add up.

Taximom, I personally was traumatised by the vaccine I remember getting and annual finger-pricks for school physicals.  I am just talking about something other than the obvious, as the thread is titled.  Of course the typical (valid!) objections are always the debatable point and I feel that is not entirely fair because I do feel it is such a gross violation of human rights to aggressively... give shots to... a baby/child/grown human being in this way.  "Transient pain" that is remembered as being incredibly intolerable 25 years after the fact is significant.  Then we have imprinting and emotional aspects.  I felt abused.

Pers, we've had chickenpox, rubella and dengue.  It does suck.  I still would rather they had the diseases than get the vaccines *not only* for the horrible ingredients, lack of testing and efficacy but *also* because it's very painful.  I don't allow anyone to give me a shot and cried when my dentist told me I needed novocaine (I chose to decline and made it through without until I needed a root canal, which was terrible.... helpless.... disrespectful for him not listening to me asking for a few minutes to recover - but he just wanted to get it over with and that is what he did.  That was 2 or 3 years ago).  I have not had a routine blood draw since I was a minor and will do pretty much anything to avoid it.  I would do everything in my power to get the answers I needed for me or my child by any means other than a needle.  That is not a criticism of anyone- I am saying what I would do because of how *I* react to such situations, which is extremely poorly.

I didn't want to have to feel defensive in writing this, but here we go.  C'est la vie.  I don't vaccinate and it's not solely for the normal reasons.  That is what this thread is about- or at least that was my intention.  I hope this one is acceptable to ICMom.

Thank you for listening (and NOT debating) - consider it more a poll with discussion.

A

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by aggie pop 

I hope this one is acceptable to ICMom.

This looks good and I will get back to you via PM regarding any forum questions you may have. 

Please carry on...

[Chloebelle]

The pain of the needles didn't effect my decision in any way, although I do think it's a bit barbaric. Aside from the pain, I can only imagine how awful a baby would feel after being assaulted with so many unclean, toxic, and foreign substances. It's something I cannot imagine subjecting a baby to.

I will say that I "understand" why parents subject their children to that because they really believe that those shots are for their protection. For instance, If I believed that injecting vitamins into my kids was really beneficial in some way, I'd do it.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by aggie pop 

Taximom, I personally was traumatised by the vaccine I remember getting and annual finger-pricks for school physicals.  I am just talking about something other than the obvious, as the thread is titled.  Of course the typical (valid!) objections are always the debatable point and I feel that is not entirely fair because I do feel it is such a gross violation of human rights to aggressively... give shots to... a baby/child/grown human being in this way.  "Transient pain" that is remembered as being incredibly intolerable 25 years after the fact is significant.  Then we have imprinting and emotional aspects.  I felt abused.

My perspective is a bit different.  My children remember nothing about the vaccines that injured them, as most of them were given before the age of 2, and honestly, the actual needle-going-into-the-skin-part was not traumatic.  Before they were old enough to understand, it wasn't a big deal because the nurses were very, very quick, so they barely had time to gasp, let alone cry; when they were infants, I let them nurse during the shot, and they barely noticed the prick.

When they were older, I prepared them for it, and made sure to set it up so that it wasn't a big deal in their minds.  I would tell them that it felt like a little pinch, and that it might hurt enough for them to say, "OUCH!" but that it would not hurt enough to make them cry.  They believed me, they said, "OUCH!" and they didn't cry.  They were fine, even my special-needs kid.

One of my kids had both a heart catheter procedure and, a short time later, open-heart surgery at age 2, and he DOES remember both ---but he was not traumatized for life;  in fact, he was perfectly happy to be examined by doctors and nurses after that, no problem.  It seems to me that that would be a much bigger deal than a shot.

If you're worried about imprinting and emotional aspects, I think it's all about how you set it up and prepare the child beforehand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Yeah - but some people do space out transient pain so the child is more comfortable.  I am unlikely to allow 6 blood draws in different spots on the same day (unless timing was really crucial).  I would space them out and give the child a break.  I know that dentists often do not do a whole bunch of dental work on one day - and decreasing discomfort is one of the goals.

There is more than just the needle prick that is the issue with vaccines.  Mild fever and painful injection sites are common reactions to vaccines.  I don't want my baby having a bunch of painful injection sites on the same day.

I suspect from previous conversations that you do not like this line of thought.  I do get it.  My objections to vaccines have nothing to do with a needle prick or even common, mild reactions.  They have everything to do with lack of established safety wrt vaccines.   That being said, even if I did believe in vaccines, I would still not turn my kid into a pin cushion. I think there is a more compassionate route than 6 injections on one day.  

 

I've never heard of 6 blood draws on the same day unless there was an extremely serious situation, in which case, avoiding transient pain is not as important as getting the information you need from the blood draw.

You're right, I do not like this line of thought. I  think it drastically weakens the position of those arguing against vaccines.  Instead of the truly important objections to vaccines being emphasized (such as the lack of safety and efficacy), the emphasis shifts to parents who can't bear to see their special little snowflake suffer a little transient discomfort*, and then the focus suddenly becomes "the selfish parents who put eveyone else at risk because they don't vaccinate their kids."

If vaccines were truly safe and effective, I think we'd see much less of this line of thought, anyway.  There would be much more pressure on parents and medical care-givers to make the process more pain-free, and those who currently criticize vaccine safety/efficacy would probably join the majority who pressure others to get vaccines.

 

*I do understand that some children are much more sensitive to pain than others, no matter how well you prepare them.  And if vaccines were safe and effective, I'd say that there should be a major push to find better vaccination options.  But because vaccines are NOT safe and effective, I think that making an issue out of the transient discomfort is actually destructive to the more important issue of getting a true picture of the safety/efficacy issues.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

You're right, I do not like this line of thought. I  think it drastically weakens the position of those arguing against vaccines.  Instead of the truly important objections to vaccines being emphasized (such as the lack of safety and efficacy), the emphasis shifts to parents who can't bear to see their special little snowflake suffer a little transient discomfort*, and then the focus suddenly becomes "the selfish parents who put eveyone else at risk because they don't vaccinate their kids."

I tend to think pro-vaxxers who decide people don't want to vaccinate their kids because of needle prick pain are just focusing on what they want to hear/ being dismissive.  I have been on MDC a fair bit of time, and I would say that less that 1% of the non-vax argument focus on needle pain.  

Saying "I dislike the idea of my child getting so many needle pricks on one day" is not the same as saying that is the reason I do not vax. Clearly, if multiple needle pricks on the same day were my primary objection, I would just spread things out, use the buzzy toy someone else posted about, numbing creams, etc.

I should not have to hide my opinion on the yuckiness of getting multiple jabs on one day because the other side might want to over-focus on it to further their agenda.  

[Rrrrrachel]

I don't think there's ever a visit where a child get six needles. Mine certainly never has. I would much rather they get a shot in some fat than a blood draw for titers. It's really not that bad.

[Rrrrrachel]

I just looked at the schedule and I guess you could get tht many in one visit depending on timing and combos. We've never had more than 3, though. Six needles in one day does seem a bit much

[basilico]

I understand and agree with what the OP is saying.  We, like aggie pop, don't vax for all the other reasons but the pain of it does also have an effect on me.  We VERY selectively vaxxed DD when she was an older baby and I felt like a crappy mom, intentionally hurting my little girl every time she got a shot. 

I understand feeling violated as well.  I remember feeling that way with my shots as a child.  I feel that way now with the tests during pregnancy (I put up with them so I can decline other, more important things later on...choosing my battles).  I never had my blood drawn until I was pregnant with DD, I only had the shots "necessary" at the time when I was a child, never had surgery and didn't go to the doctor except for those childhood checkups (yay awesome immune system!). With pregnancy, suddenly I was poked for blood, had all my parts inspected...it does feel like your body is not your own. 

Now of course, a shot is absolutely nothing compared to having surgery or going through some other major medical procedure.  I think the OP is just thinking aloud, trying to have a little discussion rather than use the pain of a shot to launch an anti-vax debate.  As she said, her debate days are over.  We all have our reasons for not vaccinating.   Most of the reasons overlap (which are the "normal objections" OP is talking about), but there's no reason that the pain of a needle cannot be a valid concern as well.

[Greenlea]

Originally Posted by pers 

As for titers... I had a blood draw done on my youngest at about 18 months because we were worried his iron might be low.  I used EMLA cream before, but still, having to hold him down while it took them a while to find a vein, which took longer than I expected?  Maybe others have an easier time, but for us it was awful, and he was way, way, way more upset afterwards than he'd ever been following a shot.  Those are just over with so quickly. I can''t imagine doing that for titers and then finding the kid needs the shot anyway.  

I brought my son in to get his iron checked too at 3yrs old. All they did was a finger prick and were able to get enough blood that way to check. He was older, but he watched everything and didn't even flinch. Shoot, I flinch when I get finger pricks.

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

I don't think there's ever a visit where a child get six needles. Mine certainly never has. I would much rather they get a shot in some fat than a blood draw for titers. It's really not that bad.

My friend's son had 5 vax shots in one visit at his 1 yr well visit.  I had another friend who had to have 4 nurses hold her daughter down for her vax shots. That is insane to me. Traumatizing for the child and the parent and IMO not needed.  I've seen a pic of a nurse squishing a babies legs against the exam table while the mom held the babies arms and the nurse gave the shots. Again, traumatizing!  Who in their right mind would do that to their child??

The shots may not always hurt, but the way they give them can be traumatizing. There are ways to reduce our children's pain and discomfort while receiving shots if the parent chooses to give them.  I do not vax, but its not because of the pain or fear of needles. However, because my son has not had shots, he is not scared of doctors or nurses or going in when he is sick (which is rare). He likes to watch when doctors do things to him - like a finger prick, or when he got his cast cut off at age 3 - as I think it alleviates his fears and discomfort.

[Rrrrrachel]

Yeah we don't do shots like that. I don't like it and there are better ways.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Reminding members that INV is for members who are not vaccinating. Please see post #5 for more information. Thanks! 

[sassyfirechick]

DD cried more for her ear piercing than the shots she did get at 2 and 5mos.  I never worried about the pain associated with the shot as I know she will most likely experience much worse in her life and I like to think that as a dog trainer I'm pretty good at passing things of as being just fine and hiding my emotion I may have over the situation.  BUT, I was not fine with the ear piercing screams that echoed through our house several hours after her shots that lasted for days.  Pain in the moment is fine by me - long lasting pain that you can't even begin to console (the lowest I could get her to was a wimper but the screams always returned), that's heartwrenching bc you just know something is wrong and you can't to a thing to fix it.

At her last well baby, when she was just over a year, the pedi said we could catch up her vaxes - she was even old enough throw in the Varicella and MMR! That would have meant giving my sweet baby DTaP/Hib/Polio (a 5-way vax), Pneumococcal, Heb B, Hep A, MMRV, and she had to nerve to toss out that it wasn't too late for the flu vax.  I'm not 100% on which MMR they use at our office but even if combied with chicken pox, that would have meant SIX needles (7 if chicken pox is seperate from MMR), or THIRTEEN diseases/viruses to be vaxxed for on one day.  She reacted poorly enough to half that many, thus a major factor in us stopping vaxes all together, I can't imagine doing more.

[aggie pop]

Originally Posted by basilico 

I understand and agree with what the OP is saying.  We, like aggie pop, don't vax for all the other reasons but the pain of it does also have an effect on me.  We VERY selectively vaxxed DD when she was an older baby and I felt like a crappy mom, intentionally hurting my little girl every time she got a shot. 

I understand feeling violated as well.  I remember feeling that way with my shots as a child.  I feel that way now with the tests during pregnancy (I put up with them so I can decline other, more important things later on...choosing my battles).  I never had my blood drawn until I was pregnant with DD, I only had the shots "necessary" at the time when I was a child, never had surgery and didn't go to the doctor except for those childhood checkups (yay awesome immune system!). With pregnancy, suddenly I was poked for blood, had all my parts inspected...it does feel like your body is not your own. 

Now of course, a shot is absolutely nothing compared to having surgery or going through some other major medical procedure.  I think the OP is just thinking aloud, trying to have a little discussion rather than use the pain of a shot to launch an anti-vax debate.  As she said, her debate days are over.  We all have our reasons for not vaccinating.   Most of the reasons overlap (which are the "normal objections" OP is talking about), but there's no reason that the pain of a needle cannot be a valid concern as well.

basilico, you got it.  Sorry I was gone for a few days and thank you for understanding what I was trying to say.

A

[aggie pop]

It does seem that a lot of vaccinating people are here...