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I'm not anti-vax, I'm pro-research! - Page 8

post #141 of 261
When we stop listening to dissenting opinions and sit around congratulating each other on being so much smarter and better researched than people who disagree with us.
post #142 of 261
I just wonder how many of us are genuinely prepared to be wrong. It's humbling to think about. We all seem to have such a stake in this debate. I wonder how much science we'd know and how much knowledge we'd have if human egos didn't get in the way...
post #143 of 261
Quote:
I just wonder how many of us are genuinely prepared to be wrong. It's humbling to think about. We all seem to have such a stake in this debate. I wonder how much science we'd know and how much knowledge we'd have if human egos didn't get in the way...

I too would love to see this!

 

IRL I don't even know anyone close to some like on here, so I would not know how they would react - I find it so very odd that those who are sooooooo in one way, know of no one that has been effected (totally un-like real life people I know) - so that would be very interesting but I feel if something actually did occur I high doubt you would ever really know it did and how they truly felt.  

 

IRL I do see things (medical but not vaccinated related) and some simply can not grasp with reality. I know of someone having a medical procedure (so we are talking real science here, real MD's) and this person is just happy as can be - the readily is the person is having an invasive procedure (with risks) to deal with symptoms but not cause of a major medical problem. This is a well informed person that is not unfamiliar with medical issues yet this person can not come to terms with the cause of the problem and needs to justify and re-justify to accept what is going to happen and when confronted with the under lying cause just flat out refuses to even say the word related to it - so denial is and can be very strong! Sad when so many that love and care about you can see reality and you just want to get your head deeper and deeper in the sand- it's happens- I see a real parallel. 

 

eta- my position came from personal experience and personal observation of others (been there done that)

post #144 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

I wonder how much science we'd know and how much knowledge we'd have if human egos didn't get in the way...

Yes, and I also really liked your previous post and that quote by NGD.  

 

What I'm about to say isn't about parents who decide to vaccinate or not...

 

Although I have a generally positive view of human nature, I think the potential for corruption is there for sure. I think sometimes researchers, medical professionals and alternative thinkers (for lack of a better word), are motivated by money (sure) but I also think people are also motivated by "being right", scooping other people, being cutting edge, getting there first, and etc. For that, I feel like there is bias on both sides of this issue. 

 

As for myself and am I prepared to be right or wrong...

 

I really hope I'm doing the right thing for my children and I know everyone else feels the same. When I read about parents who really regret one/some of the choices they made on behalf of their kids, my heart breaks for them. There is enough room for error that most of us will never be in that place but that doesn't mean that a perfect storm of consequences couldn't land all of us there. 

 

So, for me, it's about making the best choice for my individual children with the information I am able to gather/absorb/understand at the time. I can't predict the future and I can't influence every little thing so I am open for that choice to turn out to not be the best one. 

post #145 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

eta- my position came from personal experience and personal observation of others (been there done that)

It seems like you know a lot of people that you don't respect all that much. I make a lot of my parenting choices (not so much medical) on observation of the friends and family I admire. I think if I knew a lot of people that I didn't respect, I would have to form my opinions in a different way. It's a sort of negative reaction "what I don't like" choice making that I feel like may be lacking in ways. 

 

Also, I was thinking more about this (ETA) and I think if you have a relationship without mutual respect, it's really difficult to get to place where you are sharing openly enough to really feel like you know that person's situation. I know that if I felt judged by someone, I would be less likely to open up and share my story with them. And, even if you say that you know they have told you their entire story....I think we all have very complex stories and relationships with medicine. My choices about medicine are strongly influenced by my early childhood but I don't really talk about that even with people who love and respect me. 

 

So, making your choices by what you observe in others (especially others who you don't respect and may not be that open to you) is something I would caution you against. 

post #146 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

I just wonder how many of us are genuinely prepared to be wrong. It's humbling to think about. We all seem to have such a stake in this debate. I wonder how much science we'd know and how much knowledge we'd have if human egos didn't get in the way...

I like to think that I am. I'm sure that will make some people laugh.

For me it's like the evidence is on a scale. Right now there's 100 pounds of evidence on one side and, I don't know, maybe 10 pounds on the other. Any change I opinion is going to happen slowly as weight is added or removed from either side and the balance slowly shifts. It's highly unlikely that there's one piece of evidence that will do it on its own.

I also see a lot of people offering speculation. Companies COULD be hiding something. Various elements of vaccines COULD react in our bodies this way. That's some pretty light evidence, for me.
post #147 of 261
Quote:

It seems like you know a lot of people that you don't respect all that much. I make a lot of my parenting choices (not so much medical) on observation of the friends and family I admire. I think if I knew a lot of people that I didn't respect, I would have to form my opinions in a different way. It's a sort of negative reaction "what I don't like" choice making that I feel like may be lacking in ways. 

 

Also, I was thinking more about this (ETA) and I think if you have a relationship without mutual respect, it's really difficult to get to place where you are sharing openly enough to really feel like you know that person's situation. I know that if I felt judged by someone, I would be less likely to open up and share my story with them. And, even if you say that you know they have told you their entire story....I think we all have very complex stories and relationships with medicine. My choices about medicine are strongly influenced by my early childhood but I don't really talk about that even with people who love and respect me. 

 

So, making your choices by what you observe in others (especially others who you don't respect and may not be that open to you) is something I would caution you against. This is utterly bazaar! dizzy.gif

WOW! have you twisted what I said!

 

I had a vac reaction, my DD did- I clearly saw what happened and somehow I don't respect???? I have seen others that I know have reactions as well- before and after-

 

 

the medical issue I wrote about deals with three MD's saying the exact same thing and a person who dr shopped to get only symptoms treated by another(4th)(and I may add because the others refused to do it as not treating the underlying cause!) and some how this is not respect??? I just don't get you! 

post #148 of 261

You edited my quote, which is confusing but I want to respond. I can only respond to your words that you shared here. The way you talk about the family with the sick child and your friend undergoing the medical procedure seemed to me like you don't have a whole lot of respect for those people. Perhaps you're just venting and perhaps I'm just reacting to my own personal interpretation of how people talk about people that I respect. 

 

I am not trying to twist what you say.

 

Observations of people making choices that you don't respect seemed to be a theme in your recent posts. Those were followed by this comment: 

Quote:
eta- my position came from personal experience and personal observation of others (been there done that)

 

I am misinterpreting your post, I apologize and will read any future posts with that in mind.

 

Rainbow.gif

post #149 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

the medical issue I wrote about deals with three MD's saying the exact same thing and a person who dr shopped to get only symptoms treated by another(4th)(and I may add because the others refused to do it as not treating the underlying cause!) and some how this is not respect??? I just don't get you! 

This person is stuck in my head as I sort laundry. I'm wondering if perhaps the other doctors she saw did not offer acceptable options for treating the problem AND and the underlying problem. And that treating the symptoms (even with risk) seems worth it to her for some reason. It seems like if she's seeking a 4th opinion to get some relief for her symptoms, they must be negatively impacting her life in a real way. I hope she has a good outcome and eventually finds a way treat her underlying causes. 

post #150 of 261
Quote:
You edited my quote,

I could have quoted the entire thing and it would not have made any difference-IMO!

 

How you jump (and it's a BIG jump) to not respecting is simply crazy-IMO

 

You assume and WRONGLY that it's about respect when it's all about sympathy - I feel sorry for people that need to Dr shop to get what they want reagardless of what is real! It has been well documented (sure some will even question this as they do "reactions") that for a price anyone can get most anything they want - be it drugs or procedures-medically speaking. 

I feel for those who can't see reality - there are times (cases) when you clearly are presented with evidence that is obvious to even a laymen (again in this case other dr.) that are clear cut and those who still live in denial about it.

 

The medical condition (in just this example) is so OT for here but it is as clear an example as if one would receive a "true reaction" (as in what is listed by the drug manufactures on vacs) and still live in la la land and pretend didn't occurred because of the vac. 

post #151 of 261
Quote:
This person is stuck in my head as I sort laundry. I'm wondering if perhaps the other doctors she saw did not offer acceptable options for treating the problem AND and the underlying problem. And that treating the symptoms (even with risk) seems worth it to her for some reason. It seems like if she's seeking a 4th opinion to get some relief for her symptoms, they must be negatively impacting her life in a real way. I hope she has a good outcome and eventually finds a way treat her underlying causes. 

you just happen to be so wrong!

 

with most things - even if you just treat just symptoms you still have a cause, and in this case the cause is real and treatable and frankly will need to treated at some point and doing this procedure only  will add added risks later on- again, this is not a respect things you are accusing me of! irked.gif and lumping it in is just nutty-IMO

 

 

ETA- I clearly do know the difference between treating symptoms when you have a chromic aliment that will not be/can not be corrected vs treating symptoms when you can't face and treat a treatable cause- again, this is not anything to do with respecting someone!   

post #152 of 261
I reread the posts, and it looks to me like the entire post was quoted, with the end bolded and a remark about the bolded part added in a different color. I've seen that approach used more often in the past month or so.
post #153 of 261

Ok, I'll stop responding to this line of thinking. I am having trouble seeing how this is relevant and will recognize my shortcomings in this regard. I do agree that this individual's medial problem is OT...that was kind of my point when I first got into it - that one person's experience is irrelevant in how we make choices for ourselves or our children. I wish your friend well. 

post #154 of 261
Quote:
 Companies COULD be hiding something. Various elements of vaccines COULD react in our bodies this way. That's some pretty light evidence, for me.

There is a historical precedence for this thinking (and if you believe in science maybe you believe in history as well?) and many people look to historical evidence for the conduct of drug manufactures and their past actions (many well documented) to draw this conclusion. 

post #155 of 261
Quote:
Ok, I'll stop responding to this line of thinking. I am having trouble seeing how this is relevant and will recognize my shortcomings in this regard. I do agree that this individual's medial problem is OT...that was kind of my point when I first got into it - that one person's experience is irrelevant in how we make choices for ourselves or our children. I wish your friend well. 

I'll quote the whole thing- again I think you rational is completely wrong.

 

Anti vac (or delayed or what ever!) How can this be? (bold part) - if you see a relative (there is a direct genetic connection and with OTHER medical issues science does rely on genetic connection- big time!!) that has a vac reaction- how do you not see a connection genetically? How can it be irrelevant to not look at others?!

 

How is it irrelevant  (if you are PRO-vac-again or what ever you want to call it) to not see the experience of others??? How many times are we told over and over again, to look at the good vac have done to others! (trials of humans, etc)

 

This line of thought (expressed by PP) is simply kookie to me- YES, either way, you look to others to make your choices- what ever side you are on!

 

Saying it's irrelevant is simply untrue!


Edited by serenbat - 3/6/13 at 8:13am
post #156 of 261
I would agree that the experience of family (even one person) is significant. I didn't think that's what you were talking about.
post #157 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Kind of makes my point I think - science is always true - it's just our understanding/opinion of things which is constantly being developed and changed. So there is an answer to if vaccines cause X, or prevent Y - but our measurement of that answer may change over time. 

Going back to reread a little and I realized that I missed this post. 

 

I had a similar thought as you when I was reading a little on Pluto, that Pluto hasn't changed by how we define it. And I think the NDT quote is more about "the realities of the world don't change depending on whether we believe in it".  The earth wasn't any less round when we believed it to be flat. 

 

I think the the quote you gave isn't that well applied to medicine though...to the point that I'll ask a few medical folks about it when I see them next. I know that you're in the field...

 

Do you think the quote applies well to applied science? Things like applied medicine doesn't seem like something we'd discuss in terms of "truth". Perhaps I'm way off base from how a lot of people think. To me, they're more like "best available practice".  I can't think of any terrible medical flop right now but if you could just imagine one...that, to me, wasn't true or untrue. It was the best available practice that is no longer considered to be so. YK?  a 

 

Makes me wonder what NDT would say about his quote being applied to medicine. My guess is that he wouldn't think it applies all that well. I wish we could ask him. orngbiggrin.gif

post #158 of 261

I thought of one!  Thalidomide... 

 

So it is true that Thalidomide was found to cause birth defects. Yes, so that science is true. I think when I read that NDT quote I'm thinking of truth in a different way than how it applies to the above statement.  But, yea, you can certainly say that "it is true that x vaccine reduces the rate of x" and that will be true unless it is proven false. (ETA: or at least I can read the research and come to the conclusion that I think it is true...redface.gifBut, in that case isn't this more, "Science is true unless it is proven false"?  If you can say that, it doesn't feel like truth to me. Don't you think the NDT quote is more about the fundamentals of the world? Or something like that...

 

It's a snow day...eyesroll.gif

post #159 of 261
Serenbat I can't follow you at all.
post #160 of 261
Quote:
Serenbat I can't follow you at all.

oh well

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