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I'm not anti-vax, I'm pro-research! - Page 9

post #161 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post

 

 

 But, in that case isn't this more, "Science is true unless it is proven false"?  If you can say that, it doesn't feel like truth to me. 

 

 

You've put your finger on it.

 

We are told that "science has spoken," and that "science has shown that vaccines don't cause autism."

But science is a PROCESS.  It's not a deity (though obviously it's treated like one).  The scientific process entails ruling out possibilities in order to prove a correlation or cause.

 

What has become standard is that the process of science is corrupted.

 

Studies are ROUTINELY tweaked:

1) before they were started (by design, by limiting the subjects to those who are unlikely to react, etc),

2) while the study was ongoing (by failure to recognize and/or report reactions, or, in the case of the MMR, by lying about the efficacy results)

3) after studies were completed (by "burying" studies that did not have the desired outcome, by selection bias in publication, etc).

 

So the studies end up saying pretty much whatever the industry WANTS them to say; the industry designs, directs, interprets, ghost-writes, and markets the study.

 

And we are told that this is "science."

 

This is true not only of the pharmaceutical industry (think Vioxx, Lipitor, antidepressants, etc., as well as vaccines, especially the flu shot), but of most industries.  The tobacco industry got caught--but tobacco is still grown in the US, and heavily marketed to developing nations.  The other industries simply learned from the tobacco industry's mistakes, and headed off problems before they arose by planting their people in the government watchdog agencies that were supposed to keep things honest.

 

Former head of CDC, Julie Geberding, under whose watch the pediatric vaccine schedule nearly tripled, is now head of Merck's vaccine division.

Former Monsanto exec, Michael Taylor, is now deputy commissioner of the Office of Foods. At least 6 other FDA employees are Monsanto "alumni," according to 

http://ivn.us/2013/02/11/the-revolving-door-fda-and-the-monsanto-company/.

 

The media is involved in this as well. The well-known Murdochs' conflict of interest with the vaccine industry includes James Murdoch being on the board of directors of GSK, and the fact Murdochs own and operate their own vaccine-testing facility.  The previous CEO of Reuters, Thomas Glocer, was on the Board of Merck.  This might explain why we see story after story on the news of studies of "links" between autism and genetics which are far, far less strong than the studies of links between autism and vaccines--but we never see those studies reported in the media, nor do we see reporting of things like the US government (this year!) admitting and compensating vaccine-induced autism cases, or the fact that Italian government did the same, or the fact that Merck's own virologists have launched a whistleblower lawsuit against Merck for lying about the effectiveness of the mumps component of the MMR, or the fact that Andrew Wakefield's partner won his appeal and was fully exonerated.

 

And the conflict of interest amongst the CEOs of the media certainly explain this apparent cover-up.  Kathleen Sibelius,  US Secretary of Healh and Human Services, advised the media to censor what they report concerning vaccines and autism: http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/03/sebelius-asks-media-to-censor-autism-debate.html, even though CDC's Julie Geberding admitted that vaccines CAN cause autism (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F05i9QHikA).

 

So much for "science."  It's so corrupt now, there's no telling how this will all play out.

post #162 of 256

I agree very much, Taxi. Mainly about the troubling relationship between business and public policy in this country (US).  I maintain a fairly optimistic view and am maybe more trusting and willing to assume the best in people but I do agree nonetheless. ETA: I didn't mean "more trusting than you"... though I'm sure it came out that way. I think I am generally pretty positive. Although, maybe living with my "we're so f'd" ranting husband for all these years has skewed my perspective. eyesroll.gif  His homemade bumper sticker reads, "Bain Capital for President because corporations are people, my friend"  

post #163 of 256

Thank you Taximom5!

post #164 of 256
They don't call it junk science for nothing.
post #165 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post

Going back to reread a little and I realized that I missed this post. 

I had a similar thought as you when I was reading a little on Pluto, that Pluto hasn't changed by how we define it. And I think the NDT quote is more about "the realities of the world don't change depending on whether we believe in it".  The earth wasn't any less round when we believed it to be flat. 

I think the the quote you gave isn't that well applied to medicine though...to the point that I'll ask a few medical folks about it when I see them next. I know that you're in the field...

Do you think the quote applies well to applied science? Things like applied medicine doesn't seem like something we'd discuss in terms of "truth". Perhaps I'm way off base from how a lot of people think. To me, they're more like "best available practice".  I can't think of any terrible medical flop right now but if you could just imagine one...that, to me, wasn't true or untrue. It was the best available practice that is no longer considered to be so. YK?  a 

Makes me wonder what NDT would say about his quote being applied to medicine. My guess is that he wouldn't think it applies all that well. I wish we could ask him. orngbiggrin.gif

IDCM - that's exactly what Neil de grasse Tyson means I think - the world is how the world is, and that's what he means by science is true if you believe it or not. I'm sure he'd be the first to acknowledge the flaws in the process of science, and how humanities understanding changes.

I'm not sure I agree it's simpler in physical science than in medicine though. I think it gets harder the more complex the system and the more possible variables there are. But I hope we can all agree there is an answer. For example either the MMR vaccine contributes to the development of autism in children, or it does not. That won't change - what will change is how we understand that.

And actually things like the thalidomide scandal, shift in views about smoking etc make me more convinced the process is working. If its working scientists view will change with better evidence (as they did in those cases), so I think this shows we can be sure that if good evidence comes to light of serious vaccine reactions it will not be hidden.

Anyway great discussing this with you IDCM. I've really enjoyed your contributions to this thread. smile.gif
post #166 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

And actually things like the thalidomide scandal, shift in views about smoking etc make me more convinced the process is working. If its working scientists view will change with better evidence (as they did in those cases), so I think this shows we can be sure that if good evidence comes to light of serious vaccine reactions it will not be hidden.
 

I agree in that I see the really serious reactions and mis-judgement from medicine eventually surfacing. I also really agree with Taxi and BB (and others) about the process being obstructed by interests outside of science. 

 

I enjoy this kind of philosophical discussion as well. 

post #167 of 256
Yet how much aggressive industry push-back did we see from tobacco companies? How much do we continue to see from GMO producers, fracking industry pundits, pesticide and herbicide manufacturers, flame retardant producers, and global warming denialists? Sure, societies have won some hard-fought battles against industries that were doing harm. But no matter how one feels about vaccine skepticism or whether or not it's warranted, the mistrust wasn't born in a bubble.

Couple that with news story after news story about unfettered hospital profiteering, (anyone see the latest issue if Time magazine?), drug company conflicts of interests, and greater consumer access to the knowledge that their doctors aren't always following the evidence...and you have a recipe for a growing movement of parents questioning doctors and the health care system, including orders to vaccinate.
post #168 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post


And actually things like the thalidomide scandal, shift in views about smoking etc make me more convinced the process is working. If its working scientists view will change with better evidence (as they did in those cases), so I think this shows we can be sure that if good evidence comes to light of serious vaccine reactions it will not be hidden.
 

 

And I wonder how many parents with babies affected by thalidomide were told, at the time, that there was no possible way that their children's health issues were caused by the drug, and that there was no evidence of it causing harm.

 

I also suspect that the higher the vaccine compliance rate gets, the longer it will take to identify serious problems, let alone less serious ones.

post #169 of 256
There's no point in going round and round with people who think there's a conspiracy to defraud the public. Any evidence or lack thereof is just declared part I the conspiracy. Pointless.
post #170 of 256

Conspiracies against the public have existed for ages. Why is this any different? Fraud, coverups, corruption, and conspiracies are all possible, and are nothing new in human history. Nothing new at all. Our country was built on the exploitation and pain of others.  I can't understand why you won't acknowledge the ugly side of humanity, and the very real possibility of present-day corruption. No person, organization, corporation, or government is beyond reproach!!

 

It is pointless to argue against the possibility of conspiracies.

post #171 of 256
I don't think it's possible for a conspiracy on the scale required to be successful for an extended period of time. It's also part f human nature that we're not very good at keeping secrets. This would require thousands of people across hundreds of institutes, government agencies, universities, and pharmaceutical companies to participate.

It's certainly a matter of opinion. I'm not trying to be critical of anyone who buys into it, just pointing out that once the conversation reaches that point there's no point in continuing.
post #172 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

There's no point in going round and round with people who think there's a conspiracy to defraud the public. Any evidence or lack thereof is just declared part I the conspiracy. Pointless.

Why is that so hard to believe? Conspiracy is an agreement between 2 or more individuals to commit an illegal or wrongful act. Does that really seem so outlandish? "Conspiracy" doesn't equal "unicorns" or "fairies & elves." Happens all the time. It's not a fantasyland only crazies dream up.
post #173 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I don't think it's possible for a conspiracy on the scale required to be successful for an extended period of time. It's also part f human nature that we're not very good at keeping secrets. This would require thousands of people across hundreds of institutes, government agencies, universities, and pharmaceutical companies to participate.

It's certainly a matter of opinion. I'm not trying to be critical of anyone who buys into it, just pointing out that once the conversation reaches that point there's no point in continuing.

I feel like that is a good STARTING point for discussions about pharmaceuticals, and vaccines in particular.
post #174 of 256

You know why I love Monsanto? Because it's such a great example of the conspiracy between government, corporation, and media. I also love the history of the approval of Aspartame--another great example of the intimate connections. When it comes to vaccines, there is only one theory taught in every medical school, and that is the theory that vaccines are responsible for the eradication of certain diseases. If you don't support the accepted theory, you are out of a job, out of funding.

 

Do you ever wonder why allopathic medicine is the only respected form of medicine in the US? Is it really the superior form of medicine? I don't think so, and I'm not the only one. Read about the Rockefeller-funded Flexner Report to learn how "Big Pharma" was born! 

 

I bring up these examples all the time, but come on! They are worth mentioning! These are fine examples of government, corporate, scientific, and medical connections (conspiracies if you will).

 

*Aspartame approval (Rumsfeld, government, evidence of harm, complete disregard for human safety. Look it up, but not on Wikipedia. They don't even mention Rumsfeld there, although it was he who enabled the approval of Aspartame)

*GMOs...Brought to you by the makers of Agent Orange luxlove.gif  Generally recognized as safe, although they admit there are no safety studies. ?

*Depleted Uranium...give it to our military, please! It's safe, even though the team who researched it found it was hazardous (Dr.Rokke). Oh well!

*Fluoride.....I know some of you are very attached to this wonderful substance, but you need to learn more about it. Don't let your kids drink fluoridated water, please. Faith in the medical system and government recommendations is no reason to blindly suck down this poison!

 

Lots of good leads if you want to know why I detest the entire system.  Sorry for the hijack, but I was not the one who brought up the subject of conspiracy. I just have a hard time passing the chance to rant :P

post #175 of 256
I think monsantos a great example, too. They aren't exactly keeping their ba corporate behavior under wraps, over there.
post #176 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I don't think it's possible for a conspiracy on the scale required to be successful for an extended period of time. 

 

You clearly have no grasp of history and politics.

post #177 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennyanydots View Post


Why is that so hard to believe? Conspiracy is an agreement between 2 or more individuals to commit an illegal or wrongful act. Does that really seem so outlandish? "Conspiracy" doesn't equal "unicorns" or "fairies & elves." Happens all the time. It's not a fantasyland only crazies dream up.

Of course not.   The accusation of "conspiracy theory" is a cop-out, a way to avoid further discussion, or to avoid being confronted with the facts.  Don't want to discuss the fact that the government and various big businesses are deeply involved in corruption?  Accuse anyone who mentions it of "subscribing to conspiracy theories!"  Yep, you can move the focus from the corruption to the accuser, and imply that the accuser is mentally unhinged at the same time!!! How convenient! And efficient!

post #178 of 256
Not at all my intention to accuse anyone of being mentally unhinged. Anymore than I assume it was yours to accuse me of being stupid by saying I have no grasp of history or politics.
post #179 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

It's certainly a matter of opinion. I'm not trying to be critical of anyone who buys into it, just pointing out that once the conversation reaches that point there's no point in continuing.

I think this is too bad because what I imagine you'd find if you continued with the conversation is that those who "buy into" the relationship between money and public policy are regular people.

 

There's a middle ground between believing that there is this mass conspiracy where thousands of people are in it for some outrageous, insidious motivation and believing that science is complicated by things like profit and pride corruption. Or that public policy understandably (to me) considers the big picture and therefore is not 100% transparent and often considers the greater good over individuals. Or that things just get f'd up over time because of a cascade of forces that are so complicated that it's difficult to even begin to put together...and that then things just evolve into "how things are" and we forget to question them. 

post #180 of 256
Sounds like you have a more moderate view. That's great. That's not the way this usually goes, though. What happens is any and all research is dismissed as worthless because its "funded by the pharmaceutical industry," (even if its not really) and all lack of evidence is being suppressed.

I have no doubt all the women here are regular people. I'm sure they're lovely to talk to on a variety of topics. However, 2500 posts worth of experience tells me that once this conversation goes here (which it has many times before) there's really nothing productive left to get out of it.
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