I'm not anti-vax, I'm pro-research! - Page 13

[prosciencemum]

Hmm - maybe I'll look for a second hand one. I prefer not to give money to spreaders of misinformation personally. Apart from that it's not so much the money outlay as the time (despite Taxi continually hinting I'm a pharma shill paid to do this, this really is a hobby for me in addition to a full time job as a scientist, and two young children). I read to relax, not to get stressed out more about lies and misinformation. 

But I suppose there's an argument for "know your enemy" so I'll think about it. Not going to be quick though. 

PS. You did all read the part where I agreed pharmaceutical companies are reprehensible right - it's not like I think they're run by kittens knitting hats for preemie babies and making cookies or anything. I agree they're horrible, and they have more power (especially in the US) than I'd like. Doesn't immediately mean that all vaccines are some mass conspiracy just to make money off stupid people though. No more than all drugs are a waste of time. Sadly we need big co-orporations to make these complex drugs, so we live with the downsides and up the legislation to keep them honest. That's what I think is working (ish) for vaccines. And I don't think crying "foul" in a loud voice at any possible moment helps the process at all.... I think it just makes everyone more defensive and less likely to admit problems quickly. I think it harms children - both by keeping them from vaccines which might help save them from a nasty VPD, but also actually by potentially slowing down the process of finding any real reactions that may exist. 

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

Hmm - maybe I'll look for a second hand one. I prefer not to give money to spreaders of misinformation personally. Apart from that it's not so much the money outlay as the time (despite Taxi continually hinting I'm a pharma shill paid to do this, this really is a hobby for me in addition to a full time job as a scientist, and two young children). I read to relax, not to get stressed out more about lies and misinformation. 

But I suppose there's an argument for "know your enemy" so I'll think about it. Not going to be quick though. 

PS. You did all read the part where I agreed pharmaceutical companies are reprehensible right - it's not like I think they're run by kittens knitting hats for preemie babies and making cookies or anything. I agree they're horrible, and they have more power (especially in the US) than I'd like. Doesn't immediately mean that all vaccines are some mass conspiracy just to make money off stupid people though. No more than all drugs are a waste of time. Sadly we need big co-orporations to make these complex drugs, so we live with the downsides and up the legislation to keep them honest. That's what I think is working (ish) for vaccines. And I don't think crying "foul" in a loud voice at any possible moment helps the process at all.... I think it just makes everyone more defensive and less likely to admit problems quickly. I think it harms children - both by keeping them from vaccines which might help save them from a nasty VPD, but also actually by potentially slowing down the process of finding any real reactions that may exist. 

PSM, you really have just highlighted why a debate with you and those like you is impossible. It is admirable, that people like Taxi and Marnica even bother.

[serenbat]

Quote:

 I read to relax, not to get stressed out more about lies and misinformation. 

Does this mean you just post stuff, forwarded pro vac stuff?

With science and all the stuff that comes along with it, like information from various source, are we to "assume" you don't research and read like most of us? 

How do you personally get only one side information and are sure they (meaning those who you use as your source) are not receiving misinformation? Would you even know?

Edited by serenbat - 3/11/13 at 9:58am

[prosciencemum]

Hmm - well despite what you think about me (and I meant I read books to relax - bit different to my internet habit!) I did spend a couple minutes researching the book you recommend. 

So I found their blog, and I kid you not they suggest the Newton massacre was caused by vaccination (indirectly, but still). That's about as low as it gets for me: http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/03/weekly-wrap-lanza-newtown-autism.html

Not convincing me it's worth my money or time.... 

[prosciencemum]

Serenbat - what is your first language? I'm really curious, and it might help me to read your posts more easily. :) (supposed to be a happy reassuring smile, not a snarky smile). 

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

Hmm - well despite what you think about me (and I meant I read books to relax - bit different to my internet habit!) I did spend a couple minutes researching the book you recommend. 

So I found their blog, and I kid you not they suggest the Newton massacre was caused by vaccination (indirectly, but still). That's about as low as it gets for me: http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/03/weekly-wrap-lanza-newtown-autism.html

Not convincing me it's worth my money or time.... 

Not surprised you bottled out, it was quite the challenge. 

Marnica:

Please do not throw out the tired argument that this book is crap because the authors are Olmstead and Blaxill. This book is VERY well referenced and you can easily chase down each and every reference for yourself. 

QED

[serenbat]

Quote:

Serenbat - what is your first language? I'm really curious, and it might help me to read your posts more easily. :) (supposed to be a happy reassuring smile, not a snarky smile). 

I completely understand it is much easier for you to deflect verses answering them. Guess my questions were too difficult. 

[pek64]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

Hmm - maybe I'll look for a second hand one. I prefer not to give money to spreaders of misinformation personally. Apart from that it's not so much the money outlay as the time (despite Taxi continually hinting I'm a pharma shill paid to do this, this really is a hobby for me in addition to a full time job as a scientist, and two young children). I read to relax, not to get stressed out more about lies and misinformation. 

But I suppose there's an argument for "know your enemy" so I'll think about it. Not going to be quick though. 

PS. You did all read the part where I agreed pharmaceutical companies are reprehensible right - it's not like I think they're run by kittens knitting hats for preemie babies and making cookies or anything. I agree they're horrible, and they have more power (especially in the US) than I'd like. Doesn't immediately mean that all vaccines are some mass conspiracy just to make money off stupid people though. No more than all drugs are a waste of time. Sadly we need big co-orporations to make these complex drugs, so we live with the downsides and up the legislation to keep them honest. That's what I think is working (ish) for vaccines. And I don't think crying "foul" in a loud voice at any possible moment helps the process at all.... I think it just makes everyone more defensive and less likely to admit problems quickly. I think it harms children - both by keeping them from vaccines which might help save them from a nasty VPD, but also actually by potentially slowing down the process of finding any real reactions that may exist. 

Not to join in an attack, but you do post a lot. How do you find the time with a full time job, and two children?

[prosciencemum]

Originally Posted by pek64 

Not to join in an attack, but you do post a lot. How do you find the time with a full time job, and two children?

Yeah I really shouldn't spend so much time on it. I agree. it's become my "break" at work. Not really healthy. Still I have much lower post counts than some.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

I prefer not to give money to spreaders of misinformation personally.

Nice, how you assert that they are spreading misinformation, even though you didn't bother to read their book, or look up their references.  You have no way of knowing whether or not they are correct.

How very...scientific of you.

Edited by Taximom5 - 3/11/13 at 12:21pm

[pek64]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

Yeah I really shouldn't spend so much time on it. I agree. it's become my "break" at work. Not really healthy. Still I have much lower post counts than some.

Lower than me, that's for sure. I post in other forums, besides vax. I assumed you were a SAHM. You shouldn't jepardize your job, though. I'm surprised that with all you have to do what people think about vaccinations is so important to you. I can't imagine worrying about other people's choices if I worked full time. But that's me.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 


That's not at all what I said. But interesting to see that's how you interpret it. Of course there are rare cases of vaccine harm. 0.0001% of vaccines even end up being compensated for harm (see top of thread).

And of course I've seen what's posted here as evidence of significant harm. Just saying when it comes to thimerosol specifically I don't find any if it convincing.

And I'm happy to point out flaws in any specific evidence you think does show harm from thimerosol.

Just to be clear are you saying that you believe that only cases that have been compensated in vaccine court are actual cases of harm and no other person has ever suffered harm from a vaccine because it hasn't been compensated in vaccine court? 

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

Hmm - well despite what you think about me (and I meant I read books to relax - bit different to my internet habit!) I did spend a couple minutes researching the book you recommend. 

So I found their blog, and I kid you not they suggest the Newton massacre was caused by vaccination (indirectly, but still). That's about as low as it gets for me: http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/03/weekly-wrap-lanza-newtown-autism.html

Not convincing me it's worth my money or time.... 

At least your response was predictable 

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 


Yeah I really shouldn't spend so much time on it. I agree. it's become my "break" at work. Not really healthy. Still I have much lower post counts than some.

Wow you must have a very long break 

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

Hmm - well despite what you think about me (and I meant I read books to relax - bit different to my internet habit!) I did spend a couple minutes researching the book you recommend. 

So I found their blog, and I kid you not they suggest the Newton massacre was caused by vaccination (indirectly, but still). That's about as low as it gets for me: http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/03/weekly-wrap-lanza-newtown-autism.html

Not convincing me it's worth my money or time.... 

Dan Olmstead never suggest that, not even indirectly.  In fact, he only mentions vaccines ONCE, as one possible source of the heavy metal poisoning that is known to cause sensory processing disorder.

Mr. Olmstead also goes on to repeat what had already been stated on the Age of Autism Blog: "Regardless of whether or not the shooter truly is on the autism spectrum, we wish to make it clear that autism spectrum disorders (ASDs) are in no way associated with criminal violence. More often than not, people with ASDs are the victims of such violence, not the people committing them." 

Got that?

Mr. Olmstead's position, and that of the Age of Autism blog is that autism does not cause criminal behavior.
 

So even though Mr. Olmstead's position is that vaccines can cause autism, he is not saying ANYWHERE that vaccines caused the Newtown (you might want to check your spelling) massacre.

Please note that at least two independent adults report that Adam Lanza had symptoms consistent with severe sensory processing disorder.  Please also note that sensory processing disorders is observed in most autistic children: http://www.sinetwork.org/pdf/tomcheck_dunn.pdf

But nice try, twisting and distorting the truth in an attempt to vilify the authors of a book that contains exactly the PROOF you asked for, PROOF that thimerosal in the amount found in vaccines cause harm.  

[Cynthia Mosher]

Edited to remove post placed in wrong forum.