I'm not anti-vax, I'm pro-research! - Page 3

[Rrrrrachel]

Here's another (small) study on the uptake of immunization in you her siblings of children with autism.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23045216/

It got similar results. Interestingly, they compared the younger siblings risk of autism based on vaccine status (fully, partially, or not immunized) and found no difference.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

so, University of Toronto, Canada and Hospital for Sick Children, Canada and not good enough research for you

Who exactly do you need to hear it from?

http://www.clinicalpsychiatrynews.com/news/more-top-news/single-view/younger-siblings-of-autistic-children-often-not-immunized/0b65318cd9.html

serenbat, I think you need to remember that "there are none so blind as those who don't want to see."  We could present convincing evidence til the cows come home, and it wouldn't make a bit of difference.  There are some people who just won't believe it,no matter how much science is out there, until they see their own child having a reaction.  And even then, they might refuse to believe it...the state of denial can be awfully powerful, particularly when a lifetime of propaganda has been in place.

[JNajla]

Quote:

vaccines can cause brain damage and other severe health problems in susceptible children.  Enough parents have reported this so that we know it's not vanishingly rare

That is anecdotal.  I have yet to see ANY randomized, double blind, placebo controlled studies with a direct causation of vaccines to autism.  If you have any, please post.  

Parents in third world countries would KILL to be able to vaccinate their children.  As someone who volunteers in Haiti, I see children and adults dying of typhoid and there is a vaccine for it, but little to no access.  Very very sad.  

[JNajla]

I take that back, I do recall a few isolated instances where there was a possible link between 2 children who had a rare mitochondrial disorder and autism a few years back.  However, these were extremely rare and isolated incidences.  With ANY medication or proceedure, there are risks.  And the collective belief behind vaccination, is that the benefit outweighs risk (for individuals and populations).  Most children in this country are protected by herd immunity.  That will decrease as vaccination rates fall below 70%.  If that is an acceptable risk, and parents understand what the possible outcomes may be, then they are free to not vaccinate.  They will just have to complete a personal or medical waiver.  

[serenbat]

Quote:

 "there are none so blind as those who don't want to see."

Oh, I do know, until it happens to them or they see someone they love and care about........ (sadly there is those who no matter what-be it black or white, still only see what they want)!

[serenbat]

Quote:

 They will just have to complete a personal or medical waiver.  

we glad-fully do so! I know less now days that vac than don't.

[tizzie44]

Science Daily Top list of Autism causing chemicals. Even traditional MDs don't argue with Science Daily.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120425140118.htm

[glassesgirlnj]

Parents in third world countries would KILL to be able to vaccinate their children.  As someone who volunteers in Haiti, I see children and adults dying of typhoid and there is a vaccine for it, but little to no access.  Very very sad.

JNajla, where do you work in Haiti? I have not been there myself, but my spouse has visited Jacmel and PAP, and we have godparents who grew up in Les Cayes (sp?) also. ETA: we lived for a long time in a heavily Haitian neighborhood in Brooklyn, so I knew a lot of people who had dual residency...

Most of the Haitian-Americans I know personally, do vaccinate themselves and their kids (tho a significant number of them work in healthcare, so they're required to keep their vaccinations up-to-date.)

That being said, I would be interested in reading more voices of Caribbean-Americans, and other people of color, who have questions about the current US vaccine schedule. I will try to do some research on this myself - any sources people want to offer, of course, would be welcome...

[Rrrrrachel]

Taxi why don't you try presenting some convincing evidence and see what happens?

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by cbwilke 

I can't imagine the pain of having a child with autism.

At this point science and medicine have not discovered what causes autism.

I think that saying we don't know is better than guessing or buying junk science.

Vaccines are vital, one of the most lifesaving inventions of the 20th century (with indoor plumbing/sanitation).

I doubt that anyone who refuses vaccines would also refuse indoor plumbing (although I could probably mock up a study linking it's use to the rise in autism diagnosis)

I will be surprised if a genetic cause is not eventually found.

Finding the gene will not help anyway, unless people are willing to gene test and abort kids with autism (which I imagine tragically many would given the stats for prenatally diagnosed Down syndrome).

Keep in mind that many kids with autism were simply labeled "retarded" in the past, and placed in institutions.

Long before that, kids with disabilities were left out to die of exposure.

Perhaps as as society we should view the increase in people with autism as a victory over the relative ignorance and barbarism of the past.

Really? You want to equate vaccines which are an invasive medical procedure that has the potential to cause harm, including death to indoor plumbing? Not really much to say there......

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Taxi why don't you try presenting some convincing evidence and see what happens?

Here the things about convincing evidence Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrachel. What one person finds convincing the next person may not.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I want to step in and address some flags made on this thread. Please be aware that this forum is one where we are allowing for rather brusque debate and members participating should be prepared for that. While sarcasm and rudeness are not something we are going to moderate for in this forum, I think we can all agree that way of communicating doesn't serve the mission of civil debate. We are frequently talking about the guidelines and allowances for the Vax Discussion and Debate forum and the types of communication that are flag-worthy but I wanted to take a second to quote the UA for the guidelines for the entire Vaccinations Forum which read:

Quote:

We have intelligent, passionate, and wise voices posting frequently to the Vaccinations forum. We certainly want to keep the forum atmosphere a place where they can do so with their passion intact. However, that passion must also carry a measure of compassion and respect, regardless of who is posting and what they are saying. 

And the Guidelines for Vax Discussion and Debate: 

We expect and insist that all members post here with an open mind and a willingness to learn. It is for parents who vaccinate as well as those somewhat or staunchly against vaccination. Intelligent, informative, and civil debate should be the shining light of this forum. Do not stoop to accusation, condescending comments and veiled insults against an individual's character or intentions in posting here, as if that will somehow discredit the person or information. 

Members are encouraged to post with the above goals in mind, however, members flagging posts are encouraged to read the specific guidelines and allowances for the Discussion and Debate forum because they are unique to the rest of the board. 

[Rrrrrachel]

Originally Posted by Marnica 

Here the things about convincing evidence Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrachel. What one person finds convincing the next person may not.

Very true!

[Rrrrrachel]

Originally Posted by Marnica 

Really? You want to equate vaccines which are an invasive medical procedure that has the potential to cause harm, including death to indoor plumbing? Not really much to say there......

I don't think it's accurate to say they equated them.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 


I don't think it's accurate to say they equated them.

ok comparing them then - still don't have much to say about it

[WildKingdom]

E

Originally Posted by tizzie44 

Science Daily Top list of Autism causing chemicals. Even traditional MDs don't argue with Science Daily.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120425140118.htm

That's not quite what the article says. It says that these are slated to be targets of research into environmental causes is autism, not that they ARE causes. It also says that the estimate is the 3% of cases are causes by environmental factors. That leaves 97% caused by something else.

[Rrrrrachel]

Originally Posted by Marnica 

ok comparing them then - still don't have much to say about it

Fair enough. It's a pretty widely held sentiment, though, that vaccines rank right up there with sanitation when it comes to improving public health and increasing lifespan.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 


Fair enough. It's a pretty widely held sentiment, though, that vaccines rank right up there with sanitation when it comes to improving public health and increasing lifespan.

Not disputing that sanitation has improved public health nor the notion that lots of people believe vaccines have improved public health as well. It was more about the comment I'm pretty sure people who refuse vaccines still use indoor plumbing. 

[Rrrrrachel]

I see now.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 


Fair enough. It's a pretty widely held sentiment, though, that vaccines rank right up there with sanitation when it comes to improving public health and increasing lifespan.

How widely held a sentiment is it?  What percentage of the population believes this? Can you give us a ball-park figure?

But more importantly--how accurate is it? It's been a pretty widely held belief that all ear infections need to be treated with antibiotics, and that's been shown to be false.  It was certainly a widely held sentiment that cigarette smoking was not an unhealthy thing to do.