My poor boys...

[Julia05]

Hi,

I have just created an account, but I felt I needed to create a post to vent.

When my ex-husband and I were married, we had two boys. Before my first son, I researched circumcision thoroughly, found out what a horrible procedure it is, and convinced my ex-husband that we should not circumcise him (even though my ex-husband is circumcised). He reluctantly agreed, and our son was not circumcised. When our second son came around, there wasn't even any dicussion about circumcising him.
 

Several years later, our relationship deteriorated to the point where we ended up getting divorced. After that, he didn't want to spend too much time with the boys, and only wanted them over one weekend a month.

About 4 months ago, after the boys came back from their weekend with him, I could immediately tell something was wrong. It turned out he had both our beautiful boys circumcised.

I was initially hoping that loose circumcisions had been done, so that they wouldn't lose too much. But when I saw what had been done to them, this was definitely not the case. There was a LOT of skin removed from each boy. After they had healed, there wasn't even any skin bunching up behind their penis heads -- and the circumcision scars are roughly half way down their shafts. They have had a lot removed.

Of course, they hate their circumcisions. They are frequently bothered by their bared and scarred genitals rubbing in their underwear. My ex seems to think I'm over reacting over this. He tells me that eventually calluses will build up, and they will begin to appreciate their circumcisions.

Sorry for the depressing topic, but this has been quite difficult.

Julia

[Banana731]

I'm so sorry . That's really horrible.

Did you call your lawyer? Is that legal without both parent's consent? I can't imagine a judge is going to look kindly on this in terms of visitation rights...

[Mitchell756]

Contact ARCLAW http://arclaw.org/

Also consider contacting http://www.davidjllewellyn.com/

Having a circumcision extending half way down the penis while flaccid is not normal medical practice and is going to be devastating for your sons. How old are they?

You should immediately move to eliminate all contact between them and your ex and file to ensure that he is never allowed to see them again until they are adults.

The effect on your sons is likely going to be severe. I would recommend taking him to court as soon as possible and forcing him to turn over all medical records including who performed the circumcisions, where they were performed them and when they were performed.

Take legal action against your ex and the physician as soon as possible, do not wait until the statute of limitations has expired, the longer he has access to your sons the more difficult it will be to separate them from him.

I am sorry this has happened to your sons, this is an absolutely appalling story, make sure they know who is responsible for this when they get older.

[MichelleZB]

WHAT?! Oh my god that's really horrible.

[Julia05]

My sons are 5 and 9. It sounds like legally, consent from only one parent is needed. The doctor is also saying that they had phimosis (which is bullshit, considering it's normal for the foreskin to not retract at their ages), and that circumcision was the best option.

[rnra]

What custody agreements do you have worked out?  Is there any mention of who makes decisions for medical care? From the doctor's perspective, they only need one parent's signature--so the doctor won't be "in trouble" for that.  However, if medical care/custody is specified in your divorce papers, then you have recourse against your ex.

[Julia05]

In all honestly, I really don't know if it's worth it to pursue anything against him. Best case scenario, he would probably get a slap on the wrist. My sons will still be stuck with their cut genitals. Nothing is going to bring their removed skin back.

Plus, I feel that I am running out of strength and energy with this. It would cost a lot of time and money, and I don't know if I can handle another legal battle emotionally either.

[argot]

I wouldn't be surprised if there were people who would enjoy contributing to help you pursue a civil case against your ex-husband (if a decent lawyer thinks you have a case). It's obviously not legitimate legal advice, but a law student friend told me that if your husband violated a shared medical agreement clause, he'd very easily be held in contempt (and it should make suing him a lot easier).

If you set up a webpage, chances aren't bad that you might get a lot of donations from many who strongly resent circumcision. What he did should be criminal! And even if you didn't want to sue (and who does?), your boys have a limited amount of time to get any legal recognition for what he had done to them (which varies by state). As awful as court is, it might not be fair to give up on their right to some compensation and recognition for what he did.

And really it's capital-J Justice you would be pursuing as much as your sons' rights. There are other men doing what your husband did. Drawing more attention to this sort of wrongdoing is the first step to stopping this from happening to others.

I'm sorry, I forgot the most important thing is how your sons feel. They're the ones living with the choice he made. If they feel seriously violated (or even mutilated), you owe it to them to pursue some sort of punishment for their mutilator. And on the other hand, if your boys don't care or prefer their current state (especially after they're old enough to care), it wouldn't matter and obviously isn't worth making them feel bad about something that can't be undone.

If they're afraid of him now (for violating their trust and their bodies), you can't make them continue to see him. That would be awful.

Edited by argot - 3/3/13 at 11:04am

[treegardner]

I would contact a lawyer.

 

[Mitchell756]

Originally Posted by Julia05 

In all honestly, I really don't know if it's worth it to pursue anything against him. Best case scenario, he would probably get a slap on the wrist. My sons will still be stuck with their cut genitals. Nothing is going to bring their removed skin back.

Plus, I feel that I am running out of strength and energy with this. It would cost a lot of time and money, and I don't know if I can handle another legal battle emotionally either.

Your sons were taken away by their own father, a man that they trusted, brought to a doctors office, stripped, put onto a surgical table, placed under general anesthesia, had part of what is likely their most prized part of their bodies amputated, awoke to severe pain, stitches and bleeding genitals and had to deal with the horror at looking down and realizing that part of their body had been amputated and was now a bloody swollen mess and coming to the realization that it was someone that they trusted that was responsible for this.

I recognize that this can be difficult for you, but I would still recommend taking legal action, because at the very least your sons should not have to deal with the trauma of having to see this man again an indefinite number of times until they are adults and at the most they deserve significant compensation for what they have to endure. You should also bring in a child psychologist to help your sons through this and if you take legal action, which I would recommend, to testify on your behalf.

Having as much taken off as they did at their ages is not normal medical practice. These are the types od circumcisions that lead to severely curved penises , stunted penile growth and repeated tearing at the scar site. I am aware that there are some physicians out there, although I am not certain how common this is, even though it appears to be much more common for older children, that will allow a parent to decide how much they want taken off and this may be what happened to your sons, particularly if your ex was upset about not getting his way in the first place.

What your ex did was absolutely inexcusable. I know that it can be hard, but for the sake of your sons you should take all of the legal action against your ex and the physician that you can. Everyone here will be willing to support you any way we can. Some organizations, such as Doctors opposing circumcision http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/  are able to provide some form of legal assessment on these types of cases if you contact them and will also make it a point to set up pages where donors can provide support.

Legal action is likely the best short term and long term option for your sons.

[homeschoolingmama]

I am spitting nails for you!  I could not imagine!  I am sorry mama. :(

[jee'smom]

that just made me sick. i cannot believe he did that to them. i will keep them and you in my prayers...
 

[joandsarah77]

This makes me feel sick. I'm so so sorry your boys and you are going through this. :(

[hakunangovi]

Wow!  Just Wow!!  I am having a very hard time comprehending how a father, who supposedly loves his children could stoop so low as to take them and have their genitalia mutilated.  What do your son's say about this?  How were they persuaded to go along with his scheme?   How do they feel about it now?

My heart goes out to you.  You must feel like you have been kicked in the gut.

[rondloper]

I feel for you and your sons. This is unfortunately a classic case where parents disagreed on something initially where one gave in to the wishes of the other, only to use that as retaliation later on when things went south between them. Since your relationship had deteriorated to the point of divorce, he saw this as a way to get back at you as well as give them the identity they never had not being circumcised like him. My wife and I also did the research on circumcision but she brought up the point that while her wants and wishes for our son were very important to her, she felt that it should be my decision either way. She stated emphatically that if we grew apart, that she never wanted circumcision or lack thereof to be used on our son as retaliation between the two of us. Unfortunately this is what your husband chose to hurt you and them. Our discussion came after a former friend of my wife was the one that had her son circumcised against her husbands wishes after they had split to get revenge on him. She tried anything and everything to keep their children away from him and alienate the children from him in every way. My wife broke it off with this person when she saw how their children were being used as pawns in a parental brawl. This father tried to sue, using a big name attorney, but the case never went anywhere as only one parent's consent was needed for the surgery. The children were on the father's medical insurance and both had custody. This was pure retaliation against a former spouse, possibly what you have going on with your ex-husband. 

Getting a lawyer may not solve your problems, and will not be the answer. It does not change the outcome. it will only prolong the emotional agony and drive a further wedge between you and your ex as well as your children and your ex and the long term outcome of that could really backfire as well. He is still their father and probably will not share his reasons with you for having them circumcised, but you have to be the strong one and not break down the relationship between your sons and their father any further. When they are old enough, they can draw their own conclusions and make their own decisions regarding what relationship they want with their father. As painful as this has been, try your best not to add to it. Just be a loving and supporting mother to them.

Hopefully your sons circumcision was not too tight and that as they grow everything will be okay!  Good luck.

[Mitchell756]

I think that everyone reading this should ask themselves what their views would be If this man had his two daughters circumcised. The psychological and physical consequences are the same for these boys as they would be for two girls.

Is there a reason why boys should not be subject to the same protection as girls, that two boys that have been assaulted in this way should have to spend the rest of their childhoods interacting with this man and two girls should not?

He may be biologically related to them, but no real father would ever go out of his way to do this to his children.

Edited by Mitchell756 - 3/6/13 at 8:35am

[Julia05]

Firstly, thank you all for the support. I may consider getting a lawyer... I'll have to think more on it.

 

I just asked my 9 year old if he was feeling down at all or anything recently about his circumcision. He actually said he feels a lot better about it. He admited that he showed it to a girl at school, as she was very curious about it and wanted to see it. He said that she said it looked 'adorable' and that it 'looks really cool', and that it made him feel a lot better about his circumcision. I certainly don't approve of him showing it to girls at this point, but at least he isn't having any confidence or self esteem problems as a result of the circumcision.

 

To be honest, even though they have had a lot removed, things could have gone worse with the circumcisions. Aesthetically, for circumcisions, I must admit, they have healed nicely. Their scars are mostly symmetric, and they haven't had any adhesions, or skin bridge etc. They also have not suffered from painful during erections after healing. Obviously, I wish this had never happened... but, now that we're stuck with it, at least the circumcisions turned out looking reasonably well.

Up until recently, I was getting both boys to apply lotion from their circumcision scars to the tips of their penises. My rational was that it would help prevent them from drying out, and losing sensitivity. I think keeping that sensitivity is why they kept being bothered by their genitals rubbing in underwear.

 

I just asked them about it, after asking them to stop doing it about a couple weeks ago, and already they are finding there is less irritation.

Maybe my ex was right -- maybe I was over reacting -- I'm just really not sure at this point.

[Julia05]

Hmmm that's weird, I tried to submit a post but it says it must be reviewed by a moderator. Fortunately I copied it beforehand...

Firstly, thank you all for the support. I may get a lawyer involved, I am not sure yet.

I just asked my 9 year old if he was feeling down at all or anything recently about his circumcision. He actually said he feels a lot better about it. He admited that he showed it to a girl at school, as she was very curious about it and wanted to see it. He said that she said it looked 'adorable' and that it 'looks really cool', and that it made him feel a lot better about his circumcision. I certainly don't approve of him showing it to girls at this point, but at least he isn't having any confidence or self esteem problems as a result of the circumcision.

To be honest, even though they have had a lot removed, things could have gone worse with the circumcisions. Aesthetically, for circumcisions, I must admit, they have healed nicely. Their scars are mostly symmetric, and they haven't had any adhesions, or skin bridge etc. They also have not suffered from painful during erections after healing. Obviously, I wish this had never happened... but, now that we're stuck with it, at least the circumcisions turned out looking reasonably well.

Up until recently, I was getting both boys to apply lotion from their circumcision scars to the tips of their penises. My rational was that it would help prevent them from drying out, and losing sensitivity. I think keeping that sensitivity is why they kept being bothered by their genitals rubbing in underwear.

 

I just asked them about it, after asking them to stop doing it about a couple weeks ago, and already they are finding there is less irritation.

Maybe my ex was right -- maybe I was overreacting... I just don't know what to think.

[rachelsmama]

Originally Posted by Julia05 

Maybe my ex was right -- maybe I was overreacting... I just don't know what to think.

While it's possible that their circumcisions won't cause them many longterm problems, I think the fact that their father subjected them to cosmetic surgery as a form of revenge against you is well worth being upset about.  (If he really thought it was "medically necessary", then why the secrecy?)  The relatively positive outcome doesn't excuse the original action.  I have no advice about what, if anything, you should do about it, but I think it gives you valuable insight into his character.

[Mitchell756]

This is not a subject that most children are ever willing to discuss with anyone, particularly their parents. Please read through this, it provides insight into the effects circumcision has on older children. http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_psychological_effects.html

In terms of what to think about this, consider my previous point on whether these were your two daughters that he had circumcised instead and what your reaction to that situation would be. Why don't your sons deserve the same type of effort that you would put into this if they were girls? This is the best way to view the situation.

Even though they may not be experiencing problems now, it is likely that they will ( if as much skin has been removed as you say has been ) in the future.

Even if they don't experience these problems, this man provides an insight into what your ex has stolen from your sons http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAHGFx95D80

Please read through this, the third and eleventh posts are men describing their reactions to being circumcised as older children. http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1368471/if-you-regret-being-circumcised-post-here

I wish you and your sons the best, but I believe the best thing to do for your sons is to take legal action against your ex and the physician involved.