Another Herd-Immunity Thread, Kind-Of

[fruitfulmomma]

I was thinking this morning, and I don't want to turn this into a bash about vaxxers, but would like to discuss the whole vax your kids to protect mine thinking. Now, I don't believe in doing things for "the greater good" but I do believe in loving my neighbor, so if I knew my kids were sick with something we would not go out.

But what responsibility do those parents who *demand* we vax our kids in order to protect theirs have in protecting their children's health above and beyond vaxxes *before* they ask us to vax our children? I don't believe any parent has the right to demand that I vax my child for any reason, but let's just assume that is a reasonable request, would it also be reasonable to request that they ensure their children are breastfed exclusively for 6 months and nursed full-term, attend car seat safety classes and rear-face their children for as long as weight/height limits allow, eat a primarily whole-foods diet, get plenty of sunshine, etc... In other words, why are they given a free pass to demand that my children be vaxxed for their children's well being but other measures to keep their children safe and healthy don't really seem to be a priority.

[Marnica]

I think it's really because if they make those crummy choices for their kids - others will not be affected - or so the argument goes. If mom #1 gets her panties in a twist because little Johnny is in class with my DS and my DS is not vaccinated, it is because they believe that my DS is a disease carrying vector and will expose their child to a VPD. 

As for other choices they make for their children, obviously i have to believe they are making crappy choices because they obviously do not believe they are crappy choices. They may not have a problem feeding their kids crap because they do not necessarily believe or know that good nutrition leads to good health. I don't think parents make choices for their kids that are bad knowing or believing they are bad.

There is also the notion that it is easier to blame someone else than to take responsibility. So much easier for a parent like this to blame any illness on my unvaccinated DS than it is to examine the food choices for their own child that may have contributed to making their child an accessible host for illness. 

[emmy526]

Originally Posted by Marnica 

I think it's really because if they make those crummy choices for their kids - others will not be affected - or so the argument goes. If mom #1 gets her panties in a twist because little Johnny is in class with my DS and my DS is not vaccinated, it is because they believe that my DS is a disease carrying vector and will expose their child to a VPD. 

As for other choices they make for their children, obviously i have to believe they are making crappy choices because they obviously do not believe they are crappy choices. They may not have a problem feeding their kids crap because they do not necessarily believe or know that good nutrition leads to good health. I don't think parents make choices for their kids that are bad knowing or believing they are bad.

There is also the notion that it is easier to blame someone else than to take responsibility. So much easier for a parent like this to blame any illness on my unvaccinated DS than it is to examine the food choices for their own child that may have contributed to making their child an accessible host for illness. 

the 'blame game' is also heightened with misinformation mass media spews out...parents readily accept msm news without question, and if the news can blame the unvaxed, then they are justifed doing so as well.  Their drs also repeat this same information to them as well, leading to instant blame when a parent hears of a child contracting a disease-first thing outta their mouth?-'did little johnny get his shot for that?'   when they hear that he did in fact get his shot for 'that' and caught the disease anyway, well, vaccine ineffectiveness is not even spoken of.  It's met with a 'well he better get another shot so he doesn't get it again and spread it to vulnerable people'

[Chloebelle]

I always go back to the fact that these people who believe in herd immunity are forgetting one huge component. Adults. No one seems to focus on their OWN vaccine status or that of the adults who are around their kids a lot. Aunts, uncles, babysitters, Grandparents, teachers...Are they all fully vaxed? Certainly most people over the age of 40 aren't, and the effectiveness of most vaccines (if they are in fact effective) lasts 5-10 years, so that means many young adults, including the parents of these kids, aren't fully vaxed. That would be the argument I would throw out if any parent were stupid enough to think that I should vaccinate my kids to protect theirs. People need to educate themselves instead of just believing all the ridiculous hype out there.

[rachelsmama]

I think part of it is the sense of entitlement that is currently being encouraged.  People are starting to act as if they're entitled to never get sick, when in fact, even if all the diseases for which there is a vaccine could be eliminated, people would still be getting sick because we are still part of an ecosystem that includes us and our diseases, and those diseases are adapting and evolving just as fast as they can.  But since some people think they're entitled to not be sick, when they do get sick they need somebody to blame.   And of course, there's the problem of the main stream media propagating various misconceptions about vaccines and immunity, which just fuels some people's indignation.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by fruitfulmomma 

But what responsibility do those parents who *demand* we vax our kids in order to protect theirs have in protecting their children's health above and beyond vaxxes *before* they ask us to vax our children? I don't believe any parent has the right to demand that I vax my child for any reason, but let's just assume that is a reasonable request, would it also be reasonable to request that they ensure their children are breastfed exclusively for 6 months and nursed full-term, attend car seat safety classes and rear-face their children for as long as weight/height limits allow, eat a primarily whole-foods diet, get plenty of sunshine, etc..

I think it is reasonable to expect that anyone who wants vaccines to be mandated or close to mandated needs to have their own house in order before they going imposing things on others.  If you sit there chain smoking beside your formula fed infant and try to say vaccines should be mandatory, I will do nothing but sneer at you.  You think my kid should be vaxxed so they do not get a VAD and spread it to your child, correct? Well, guess what, your child is more likely to catch a disease due to lifestyle choices you are making, and therefore likely to spread it around.  Vaccines are not 100% effective, some are not even close, and it is not like VADs are the only viruses floating around -  your child is more likely to be a disease vector  if you make poor lifestyle choices.

In other words, why are they given a free pass to demand that my children be vaxxed for their children's well being but other measures to keep their children safe and healthy don't really seem to be a priority.

Because society allows it.  Most people vaccinate, we are in a minority, and minorities are fun to take crapshoots at.  They can get their hate on..  I do think society is set up in a way that favours vaccines over other health choices - some places do not have decent maternity leave (making breastfeeding tricky) and they have lousy sick leave policy - which is part of the justification for things such as the CP vaccines (can't have mommy missing work).  People give others a pass on some health choices (ex: not breastfeeding) because it is seen as elitist not to.  Not everyone can breastfeed (I believe most can - but that might be another topic for another thread) but everyone can take their child for shots, yk?  

[fruitfulmomma]

If mom #1 gets her panties in a twist because little Johnny is in class with my DS and my DS is not vaccinated, it is because they believe that my DS is a disease carrying vector and will expose their child to a VPD.

Which is ridiculous circular logic if ya think about it. A parent who thinks like this must understand that vaxxes are not 100% effective or she wouldn't be worried. But then instead of using titers to insure immunity was confered and that the vaxxed child is not also capable of spreading the disease, vax status is used as proof that said child is not the one spreading it.

I always go back to the fact that these people who believe in herd immunity are forgetting one huge component. Adults.

I think there is currently a big push for adults to be caught up in order to cocoon newborns. But it is probably still true that many are not.

the 'blame game' is also heightened with misinformation mass media spews out..

Yes, despite the fact that the cdc made it quite clear that the increase in pertussis was *not* in fact caused by those of us who choose not to vax, we continue to get blamed for it. My doctor is in favor of vaxxes but respects our choices and he said that the current vax wasn't as good as the old one as far as efficacy but that it is safer so that is what they will continue to use. But who is talking about that in main stream media?

People are starting to act as if they're entitled to never get sick, when in fact, even if all the diseases for which there is a vaccine could be eliminated

Yes, and well of course there is always a push for more vaccines to cover more diseases. I think it will all explode in their faces one day really. Dr. Offit and his proclaiming that you can inject a kid with, what was it 80,000 vaxxes in one day with no consequences? How foolish. (I am now thinking about Serenity/Firefly and how well that went over for them.) And frankly maybe with the way our country is going economically we might want to have a real talk about how to protect ourselves and our children without the availability of vaccines.

People give others a pass on some health choices (ex: not breastfeeding) because it is seen as elitist not to.  Not everyone can breastfeed (I believe most can - but that might be another topic for another thread) but everyone can take their child for shots, yk? 

Yeah, I know that not everyone can do all the things I listed. Even living below poverty level in America, I still realize I have a lot of choice in my children's health care that maybe not everyone can make the same choices. But for the most part, I think the people I hear saying these things are not in the position where they can't make at least some better choices for their families.

But what would it look like if we changed the way we viewed health and infectious disease and instead of relying on vaxxes in the population at large, we instead encouraged healthy lifestyles and used quarentines when necessary and only used vaxxes in those at-risk populations, while working with them to improve their lifestyle so that they no longer needed to rely on them? (Not forcing vaxxes on anyone regardless of where they are and only with full consent!)

[sassyfirechick]

Vaccines seem to be an excuse that allows one to live a life of poor choices.  Don't want to eat healthy, exercise, or avoid chemicals?  You don't have to! Just take this magic pill and it will place a bubble around you and prevent all the bad things from accumulating.  I feel like I do way more now because we no longer vax and I know health doesn't come from doing just one thing.  We eat healthier, make different choices in the products we buy, we read labels....things that I know I totally took for granted prior to educating myself on vaccines.  I want a healthy family, but avoiding vaccines is only a piece of the puzzle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fruitfulmomma 

I think there is currently a big push for adults to be caught up in order to cocoon newborns. But it is probably still true that many are not.

There is definitely more of a push to suck adults into vaccinating but I think adults are also harder in general to get into the doctor's "regularly" and thus the pop-up clinics and vaxes at pharmacies serve to cover the gap.  People tend to think more about the care of their children then for themselves.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by fruitfulmomma 

I think there is currently a big push for adults to be caught up in order to cocoon newborns. But it is probably still true that many are not.

 

There is indeed such a push, with "cocooning" being given as the official reason.  There is, however, no discussion of the fact that "cocooning" has been shown to be useless.  In fact, they stopped recommending it entirely in Australia, BECAUSE COCOONING DOESN'T WORK.

We don't hear about it in the US, because the pharmaceutical industry has a lot of control over what does and doesn't get published in the media. In addition, much of the continuing education of the doctors in the US is literally under the control of the pharmaceutical industry, which makes a twisted sort of sense, when you think about it--much of Western medicine involves administering medication (including vaccines as prophylactic medication).

We haven't heard a heck of a lot about the flu shot being absolutely worthless, but we do hear a lot about perfectly healthy people being fired for refusing a flu shot.  That's gonna be effective for scaring a lot of people into submitting to a flu shot.

[rogm]

2 words, lazy and selfish.

[pek64]

I agree with emmy that so many people prefer having someone else to blame, rather than being responsible for their own choices.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by rogm 

2 words, lazy and selfish.

This is a short post, so I need some clarification.    Who is lazy and selfish - those who demand non-vaxxers vaccinate when they themselves do not make good health choices or non-vaxxers?

[thispathisme]

Another thought, that I don't think was mentioned, but say you have a group of kids in a daycare, roughly the same age, but getting their shots close to their birthdays, so some may be vaccinated in the future, but are not yet. Do any of these parents who've had their child vaccinated with one that sheds keep their kids home and/or away from other kids? Because the whole point is to keep these diseases from spreading, yes?

[thispathisme]

Double post

[cyberfish]

I think the concept of herd immunity creates a false dichotomy.  And it pits vaxers against non-vaxers.  The majority of people who thoughtfully vaccinate, as opposed to going along with what they think they're supposed to do, seem to do it because they've decided it's the best option for their families.  They can claim that they are contributing to herd immunity as a bonus but really, they're looking out for their families first, as are non-vaxers.  

In addition, even amongst non-vaxers, there seems to be this idea that if you choose not to vaccinate, you are somehow accepting that you are not contributing to the overall health of society.  I think this is also false.

Look at HiB.  This is an illness most kids got without incident but the vaccine has done a pretty good job of eliminating it.  Has H. influenzae disappeared?  No.  Other, sometimes more virulent, strains have taken its place.  With pertussis, a vaccinated person may still transmit the disease without even knowing he or she is sick.  

I think it's important to recognize that non-vaxers have an important role in good community health.  This is so often overlooked.  

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by cyberfish 

I think it's important to recognize that non-vaxers have an important role in good community health.  This is so often overlooked.  

I would love to discuss this more if you like.  Any chance of you playing on a spinoff?

[cyberfish]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I would love to discuss this more if you like.  Any chance of you playing on a spinoff?

Sure, I'm game