Post Singapore Math-please talk me through the options!

[Fillyjonk]

Ok I KNOW this has been done a few times but I can't seem to find the threads. So apologies and thanks if anyone has time to answer this.

I have a 9 year old who finished the Singapore primary program about a term ago. Since then he's been doing some science stuff, but he's fairly keen to carry on with more maths and I'd like some stuff around for him to use.

Dp uses Challenge Math with him from time to time (he's a mathematician) but it doesn't seem to be the kind of program he can dip in and out of. But advancing is fine if that's all there is. The problem is that the next stages always seem very dry and lose the pretty pictures.

Also, he/I are not necessarily interested in more and advancing and so on, more in doing more fun stuff in more depth. 

The other option would be science related stuff, since physics is what he is really into right now. In maths, specifically, he seems to be very into algebra, probability, mental maths and so on and does not seem to be so drawn by geometry (though he spends hours drawing inventions) - I think he struggles with the precision needed (he finds handwriting very hard)-so things like Vi Hart won't work (though his sister loves them). But we'd be really interested in a math-heavy physics/chemistry/programming/robotics program, since those are his current passions. Where is this stuff? 

Although he can read well and fluently, reading and especially writing are still hangups for him so unfortunately I don't think he'd go for something like Life of Fred.

Any thoughts? Ideally, stuff he and I can look at online before I buy!

I'm guessing this is a pretty common problem, especially since Singapore seems to stop a year or so short of, certainly, the UK maths national curriculum. So what do you all do? What happens in Singapore-do they maybe take a year out or something?

Edited by Fillyjonk - 3/6/13 at 2:11pm

[moominmamma]

In Singapore 1st grade starts a little later, I think, so kids starting 7th grade kids are all 13 or almost 13. I think they move straight into Singapore Secondary programs after Primary 6B. But I've struggled with this with my kids because like your ds they were younger, and they weren't ready for a curriculum built for teens. Even if they were ready for the maths, they weren't ready for the heavily scholastic format. My eldest dd eventually got through a couple of years worth of New Math Counts at age 12-13, and we liked it, but it certainly was too dense and formal for her at age 10. I tried other programs with my other kids: Teaching Textbooks (way too repetitious and formulaic), Life of Fred (they found the story-telling to be needlessly contrived and distracting), Art of Problem Solving (solid, but too challenging for independent learning at age 10-11). 

With younger dd we took almost 18 months off formal math and eventually looked at two programs that seemed about right. One was the Canadian school program that she ultimately settled on (Math Makes Sense) and started before Christmas. The other was Singapore's "New Syllabus Math" which was much less intimidating than the other Singaporean secondary programs we'd looked at. It's workbook based with a text, just like Singapore Primary, and it seemed reasonably similar to Primary Math in style and presentation. She chose the Canadian program because she wants to take math at school next year and needs to be able to make a case that they should let her into high school math at age 10. Otherwise I think New Syllabus Math would have been the first choice.

The year and a half break was good, but we found Challenge Math to be a good fit, and a good jumping off point for interest-driven unstructured math learning: there was a chance to consolidate basic skills with fractions and decimals, but she really enjoyed those enrichment topics concerning probability, calculus, etc., that we could drop into and out of. We read Theoni Pappas' children's books about math ("Math for Kids and Other People Too," "Penrose the Mathematical Cat" etc.) as well as "The Number Devil" and Tahan's "The Man Who Counted."

Not sure I'm much help, but maybe if Challenge Math isn't working and you're resigned to advancing, you could take a peek at New Syllabus Math from Singapore. Or maybe some of the offerings from Art of Problem Solving: their pre-algebra book is new and is supposed to be very good. 

Miranda

[AAK]

Miranda is probable the best person to listen to on this since her kids were also quite young when they were ready to move on.  My daughter is older now.  She finished Singapore at 11 vs 9.  We spend a year using Khan Academy, Real Life Math, etc.  This year, we are using Art of Problem Solving's Pre-Algebra program.  It is geared for older kids though--no workbook, etc.  However, my dd and I go over it together (she doesn't yet learn math well from just reading through the examples) and then she does the work.  There are lots of very challenging problems even though it is just pre-algebra.  IMO pre-algebra is pretty much just an intensive review of earlier topics with a couple extras thrown in.  Art of Problem Solving also has videos online to go over concepts.  Additionally, my younger child has used their Beast Academy this year.  Unfortunately, at the beginning of the year they only had grade three.  While it really did make my child have to think, it was still 3rd grade stuff and we have had to supplement a lot because she needed more progression than that.  The same company makes materials to prep for math competitions.  Would your son like that?  It could be a way to spend time with math without worrying about specific progress.  

Amy

[Fillyjonk]

Thank you both for these great replies. Would it be fair to say that there is a bit of a gap at the end of these math programs then? I'm really surprised that there isn't anything on offer as, say, extension work. 

My personal preference is strongly that he spend this time consolidating and exploring, but that's especially the case if there isn't anything obvious or decent out there. He's gone from the start of Miquon to the end of Singapore in around 2 years, in that he did no structured maths til then, and I think a consolidation, thinking, playing about break would be a great idea at this stage anyway. 

I have been back and taken another look at Challenge Math after reading your post, Miranda. Thanks for the suggestion to use that-actually, it does look like a good fit. I probably haven't actually looked at the book since I picked it up a year ago, and at that point there was no way he could use it alone. I think what's happened is that in the past year he's gone from being a seriously struggling reader to being completely competent and fluent, I'd guess reading as an adult, really-as they do, these kids.

So whereas when I first looked at it I thought there was just far too many words for him, now looking at it its totally fine. In fact he spent a productive hour with it this morning. Originally, what he was after was a kind of "spine" like Singapore to jump off from into other things, now we're kind of looking at doing it the other way round, doing Challenge Math and then talking through anything that he needs to know. Just needed to think outside the box a little! He's extremely independent in his learning, but especially in maths, and its important to him that he has something he can retain control over, where he can dip in and out and work or not at his own pace-and that looks doable and interesting with Challenge Math although I wouldn't have thought to use it that way. Thanks for the more structured suggestions too, I will bear them in mind if this plan does not work :-) 

AAK- I think Beast Academy looks really great. Pictures of monsters, what could go wrong? I just wish they went a little further. I'm intrigued by the Art of Problem Solving stuff too, and will take a look, but right now I think I'm interested in fun, exciting resources and that sounds like it might be a little heavy?

Coudl someone explain exactly what pre-algebra is? I always hear talk of "algebra" on these forums and I'm not sure what exactly it is, over here we don't really have it as a separate subject, its all taught together. And looking at the Beast Academy placement tests there is basic algebra on there. So, hoping this isn't too daft, but what kind of things would a pre-algebra text be teaching?

ETA Oh and thanks Miranda also for the book recommendations, will def take a look at them also.

[moominmamma]

It has taken me years to gradually figure out what pre-algebra is, because we don't have it in Canada either. Basically I think it's mostly a year-long course consolidating basic primary school arithmetic but with more sophistication and complexity in the applications, and a few additional topics. For instance using fractions, decimals, percents and ratios, and developing the ability to move fluidly between the different representations of number relationships in a more sophisticated way than has previously been expected (eg. ordering 5:8 with 0.64 with 13/16 and 72% from smallest to largest, or taking 140% of 5/8, and expressing the result as a decimal). There are other topics that are usually consolidated or taught afresh (depending on previous exposure) like volume and surface area simple 3D shapes like right prisms and cylinders, some basic statistics and probability, squares and square roots, scientific notation, some basic linear algebra, the Pythagorean theorem, etc. 

In essence, I think American math teachers decided that their approach to high school math would be to start out with an intensive course in algebra that moves fairly quickly to work with quadratic equations, and they called the general maths survey course that preceded that and consolidates previous learning "pre-algebra." It doesn't really have more to do with algebra than it does any other maths topic.

Miranda

[SweetSilver]

Sorry if this is OT, but where are your preferred sources for the books and workbooks, etc, mentioned in this thread?  From the publishers?  Amazon?  Someplace else?  

[Emaye]

Originally Posted by SweetSilver 

Sorry if this is OT, but where are your preferred sources for the books and workbooks, etc, mentioned in this thread?  From the publishers?  Amazon?  Someplace else?  

I ordered my Singapore books from singaporemath.com  They are not sold directly on Amazon so I didn't see the point of ordering it from over there.  My son is moving easily through the 1A workbook right now.  I think he could have skipped it but because I was unsure of what Singapore math is all about, I bought the 1A and 1B (the first in the series).  He loves all the pictures and enjoys answering the questions.  There is the added benefit having to read in order to answer questions because a lot of the questions use words instead of being math drill sheet containing all numbers, kwim?  

Miranda, thank you for turning me towards Singapore math. It is a great fit for my child!

[AAK]

AAK- I think Beast Academy looks really great. Pictures of monsters, what could go wrong? I just wish they went a little further. I'm intrigued by the Art of Problem Solving stuff too, and will take a look, but right now I think I'm interested in fun, exciting resources and that sounds like it might be a little heavy?

Coudl someone explain exactly what pre-algebra is? I always hear talk of "algebra" on these forums and I'm not sure what exactly it is, over here we don't really have it as a separate subject, its all taught together. And looking at the Beast Academy placement tests there is basic algebra on there. So, hoping this isn't too daft, but what kind of things would a pre-algebra text be teaching?

ETA Oh and thanks Miranda also for the book recommendations, will def take a look at them also.

Yes, Art of Problem Solving's PreAlgebra is a bit "heavy".  It is *almost* too much for my dd.  We actually skip the challenge problems because there is enough challenge in the regular ones.  However, when I compare it to other "PreAlgebra" programs, the others are WAY too simplified.  

When I was in school, there wasn't a "pre-algebra" year.  At least, not officially.  Pre Algebra seems to be a general review of all topics with particular focus on percents, ratios, & probability.  They seem to make sure the student can easily flex between "form" of a number in order to solve a problem.  For example, in some percent problems, it makes more sense to use a decimal rather than a fraction.  The concept of a fraction gets extended and integrated into other problems.  It "becomes" division.  Additionally, AoPS really expected my dd to understand the various properties (distributive, associative, commutative) and use that knowledge to determine solutions.  They went through linear equations and solving for x.  Of course, Beast Academy did that too--just not to the same extent.  Also, in Pre-Algebra, the Pythagorean theorum is learned/understood.  

Beast Academy is different than anything I have seen.  There is basic algebra in there.  It really seemed to be a bunch of brain teasers wrapped in a math curriculum.  

Amy

[Fillyjonk]

Thanks guys for clarifying with the pre-algebra. It does sound pretty interesting in its own right then, and I can see the value of that approach.

I love the look of Beast Academy. its not going to work for my son but I have a 7 year old as well who is also very into maths, and loves having her maths books to do on long car journeys. Beast Academy certainly looks a lot more fun than the offerings of the local discount bookstore! Did you use the placement tests and if so, how accurate do you think they are? (we've always found Singapore to be just...off. Randomly in either direction). I don't think there's a UK supplier so we wouldn't be able to return them really if they were way off.

[AAK]

Originally Posted by Fillyjonk 

Thanks guys for clarifying with the pre-algebra. It does sound pretty interesting in its own right then, and I can see the value of that approach.

I love the look of Beast Academy. its not going to work for my son but I have a 7 year old as well who is also very into maths, and loves having her maths books to do on long car journeys. Beast Academy certainly looks a lot more fun than the offerings of the local discount bookstore! Did you use the placement tests and if so, how accurate do you think they are? (we've always found Singapore to be just...off. Randomly in either direction). I don't think there's a UK supplier so we wouldn't be able to return them really if they were way off.

I didn't use a placement test.  Only grade 3 was available.  My dd is in grade 4 and would have actually been using Singapore 4a/4b this year.  However, I wanted her to have more practice with multiplication/division.  Conceptually she understands many math concepts, but math fact kill her as well and I hoped that this would give more practice on it.  We do other topics more in depth outside of those books.  As far as accurate levels go, I think it is more challenging than most grade 3 books.  Mostly because they expand the thinking skills required.  It isn't just "hopping on lily pads while counting by twos".  Instead, you need to navigate a maze by skip counting, but they don't tell you what you are skip counting by.  My dd loved these puzzles and it did help cement the math facts.  It also covered squares, math 'tricks', and using variables.  I think those topics were above grade 3.  However, it didn't cover some things that I wish it would have (mean, median, mode, and a couple others--perhaps they are in the fourth volume).  Also, my 4th grader is dyslexic and has found a joy in comics.  I had the "hidden agenda" of reading because the text is in comic book style.  This was great!  We each take certain characters and read the comic like a script.  I love the way the monsters explain things.  It has been great.  

In short, I think it would be great for a math inclined 7 year old.  

Amy

[Fillyjonk]

Thanks so much AAK, I'll probably just get a couple of the 2s and the 3s then.

The comic book format sounds awesome also! My oldest struggles a lot with dyslexia-like issues and I think he'd really love the format. Might see how he likes them anyway, just for fun.