Awful night BFing, feeling helpless... Any input appreciated. « Back to Group Discussions

[buko]

Ugh-- I'm the question lady.

So, Baby L is ~5 days old.  BFing was sorta going okay. Not exactly-- milk came in at 36 hours but I wasn't getting her latched right, so she did some nipple damage... but we seemed to fix that yesterday...  at least, it was getting better, though it still hurt from the initial damage.

Then last night, she just kept popping off and on. Diaper changed, same issue. Tried to burp (it did seem like maybe she had some gas)-- no change, even after she passed a fair bit of gas.

She sucks for 2-4 seconds and then pops or pushes off and relatches (usually not well)... and fuss and repeat. Eventually sorta seems to fall asleep at the boob (stops sucking entirely) but when I take her off, she cries and is still obviously hungry.  I tried the other boob etc... I guess eventually she got enough milk around 8 pm... whatever.

Then I guess she had a normalish session-- or a series of shorter normalish sessions around 10/11/12 at night... can't remember anymore, but I saw swallowing and she fell into a nice sleep.  Then this morning at 4 am, it was back to the same as above.

It's really awful.  She's not getting anything (not really seeing a lot of swallowing with this terrible new method of hers), but I know there's milk in my boobs because it dripped out overnight.  It doesn't seem to be oversupply either, because she isn't choking or anything, and I didn't see spraying when hand expressing or pumping... eventually I was so engorged (that's the other thing-- engorgement, though not so much my areolae were too firm/stretched to latch) that I had DH set up the gifted Medela Swing pump to relieve me (first time I've used it).  Got a fair bit of milk from both breasts (~1.5 oz total), and my boobs were softer, but Baby L still wouldn't do anything different with my boobs than what she had been...

I really didn't want to start with any non-boob feeding, but I tried a spoon, then a dropper, and finally one of the Medela bottles I had with the expressed milk.  She sucked it right down, no popping off and on or anything.    She was still hungry, but I didn't keep pumping as it looked like MAYBE she would fall asleep anyway.  Now we have the white noise on, DH is trying to get her to sleep and I have a call in to my MW, who is also supposed to help me with lactation.  So... maybe.

But any thoughts?

I have looked up everything I can, and it doesn't seem to be illness or gas or anything...  ??  It just seems to be a problem with my boobs or my way of feeding or something-- but why all of a sudden?

I have been sobbing half the night.  I don't want to get her started on a bottle.  If you have any thoughts at all, they would be dearly appreciated! 

[nearlyelated]

Do you have anyone around who can check the latch?  A midwife or lactation person?  Otherwise, I know friends who have had success with nipple shields (http://www.medelabreastfeedingus.com/tips-and-solutions/112/nipple-shields).

[Bena]

I agree that having someone there to help out is a biggie.  Our midwife was at our house every day for a week, helping out with BF!

In the meantime, I can offer you a trick that helped us a bit.  I think at first DD had trouble latching because I was so engorged my nipple was just too big for her little mouth.  But then she`d get hungry and would howl and scream and get so frantic that she just couldn`t latch on she was so agitated.  So one solution I had found was to drip the milk in her mouth just enough to ease her so that she (and I!!!) could calm down enough to take the time to find a good latch.  Also, like your found out, an engorged breast is not confortable and also not easy for baby to latch on!

Have you also checked out the videos on Dr. Jack Newman`s site???  They helped me visualise what a good latch was.  Here is the link so you won`t have to search:

http://www.breastfeedinginc.ca/content.php?pagename=videos

Hang in there Buko!   I have to say that breastfeeding, in those first few weeks is by far the hardest thing I`ve ever done in my life.  It was worse than labor, quite honestly!!!   But it`s only a matter of time.   DD ended up nursing beautifully, and did so untill she was 2yrs 4 months.    But it sure didn`t feel like that would be happening in those first few weeks!!!
 

[buko]

Thanks so much, Ladies. My MW (also an LC) is consulting me by phone in a few minutes and might be able to come over. I am nervous to use a nipple shield bc she HAS latched on pretty well in the past (esp most of yesterday and some the day before) and I heard you can become dependent on them.

I love the dripping milk tip, but she wouldn't do anything good with my boobs even after I pumped and A) my boobs were softer and B) she was at least partially fed with the pumped milk (so calmer). Sigh.

[Chapsie]

HUG!  This is very common newborn behavior (the popping on and off thing!) It won't last forever, I promise!  Engorgement does change the size and shape of the nipple which could be confusing to a five day old.  Softening your breast a little before latching was a good idea-- even using a warm compress (diaper filled with warm-hot water) and massaging your breast down right before a feed can sometimes help. (or a hot shower).  Make sure she opens her mouth WIDE (like she's about to eat a hamburger), aim your nipple toward the roof of her mouth and get her to latch as deeply as possible (somewhat asymetrically, so that there is more breast on the bottom of her mouth than the top (her chin should indent your breast, but her nose should not).  If you hear audible swallowing now that your milk is in, that is the BEST sign that she has good milk transfer from your breast!  There is a "sweet spot" on the roof of her mouth and when that spot is stimulated by the nipple, that is when she will start sucking.  

Since you have some nipple damage, it is possible that maybe a little bit of bleeding is getting into the milk, and that might be changing the flavor a little bit to the point where she doesn't like it? Grasping at straws here, but that may be a contributing factor?

It's tough with engorgement, but you could try block feeding a little bit until your nipples heal (nurse on one side per feeding so the other side has some time to heal in between).  Alternating positions can help, too-- switch from cradle to football to side lying so that different parts of your nipple are being compressed at different feeds.  Sometimes that helps a little.  

Have your nipples air dry in between feeds and even rub some breastmilk into your nipples after a feed to help them heal and prevent further damage.  

With all that said, I don't often recommend using nipple shields, because once you start using them, it can be hard to wean off, but I wound up using one when nursing my DD as a baby and it helped a lot.  If she keeps this up and you are desperate, a shield could be a useful tool for a little bit until engorgement subsides.  It is a piece of silicon that you wear over your nipple and it just helps the baby feel the nipple better in her mouth.  Personally, I thought it helped with nipple pain (I had cracked and bleeding nipples with my daughter and I'm supposedly a lactation professional, haha, so it happens to all of us!), but I did learn that theoretically, it can make nipple damage worse because of excess friction inside the shield as baby nurses.  Just wanted to throw that out there!  If you don't need it, it's best not to use it, but if it is between using a shield and not getting any sleep and having a fussy baby, choose the shield!  :)   They sell them at target and BRU for a few bucks.  

Love ya!!  Hope your midwife can help when she sees the latch and what baby is doing in person.  

[buko]

I really appreciate the encouragement, BTW! This is totally way harder than labor, and labor was the hardest thing (physically) I had to do until now.

[nearlyelated]

That's great that your midwife is going to offer some help.  Mine was critical in getting the latch right (even though I thought I'd mastered it!)  The best trick she showed me was gently pulling baby's chin down.

It does get easier!

[wildmansmom]

Buko - sorry you are having a tough time!

I had a similar issue with DS, I have flat nipples and I was so engorged at 5-6 days after birth that he literally had NOTHING to latch onto.  Once the engorgement went down we still had the pop-off behavior.  Part of the problem was that he was so hungry that he was frustrated when he had to wait for the milk to let down.  I hope your LC has good advice, but maybe also think about pumping until your milk lets down and then have Baby L latch on so that she gets an instant reward? 

We ended up using a nipple shield for about 8 weeks and then managed to get off of it and nursed for about 2 years without the shield.  This is the hardest part of BF!!

[Melany]

When she starts to get sleepy, before she falls asleep, change positions. Even at the same breast. Also, stimulate her to keep her awake. Strip her down to just a diaper, pump her gently if she starts to slow down.

Try the football hold, tends to be a more awake position.

Edited to add: pump the baby's arm gently, not pump gently.
Edited by Melany - 3/8/13 at 11:08am

[RainGardenMama]

All good advice here, just wanted to offer moral support to ya, mama.
I had a very similar problem with DS. Working with a lactation consultant helped tremendously. Make sure you get her to come to you if the phone isn't helping! You need help, help, help.
My little guy was extremely stubborn about latching on, there was nothing "wrong" with either if us.

[Melany]

Definitely have the LC come to you. The sooner, the better.

Try to avoid a nipple shield. Lots of lanolin after nursing.

Edited to add: nipple shield can be a good thing, but its hard to get baby off of it. My son needed it for 6 weeks. If you can correct the latch without it, it's better.
Edited by Melany - 3/8/13 at 9:12am

[LightForest]

Hugs to you

It's so tricky getting into a good groove. My DD had a tight frenulum and we found that getting it snipped made all the difference in the world for her latch. I also remember that I loved switching up positions, and the football hold was my special friend during those first two weeks! Good luck and keep us posted!

Edited by LightForest - 3/8/13 at 11:05am

[cabbitdancer]

I had trouble with my daughter's latch, to the point I had a really nasty blister on one nipple. We hit about two weeks and I was in tears and ready to call an LC, when she just seemed to "get" it and it was pretty much smooth sailing for almost three years.

[sunshinelove]

Buko, it sounds a lot like what my DD did the first few days after birth. She kept latching and then popping off, fussing a little, relatching, over and over again. It was so frustrating for both of us! I kept changing position, making sure she was comfortable in every way possible, nothing really helped much. She eventually outgrew it. I know thats not a very satisfying answer but all i remember is the nursing sessions in which she did that became less and less over time. It seemed to be some sort of developmental thing but i cant explain what it was exactly. It might also have been due to getting impatient with the letdown reflex--getting your milk flowing with the breast pump before you put her to the breast will probably help.

[buko]

Don't have much time or ability to reply right now bc I have cabbage on my boobs and am leaking milk down the front of my body. I got to see an LC and it was just extreme engorgement from some dumb things I did (hot showers, pumping that time-- of course I was feeding on demand and as soon as she started rooting, but that's not bad in itself). Anyway, she showed us some things and we are working on it!

[buko]

Oh, one thing keeping me going through all this-- despite bleeding nipples and now engorgement & baby struggling at the boob, she was 4 oz OVER her birth weight today at the ped's-- 5.5 days old. So I am proud of my persistence!

[eternalw]

Originally Posted by buko 

Oh, one thing keeping me going through all this-- despite bleeding nipples and now engorgement & baby struggling at the boob, she was 4 oz OVER her birth weight today at the ped's-- 5.5 days old. So I am proud of my persistence!

That's awesome! I am sorry you are in so much pain though. Hope it resolves soon. :)

[firespiritmelody]

Way to go Buko!! I'm glad you've got some help IRL. For me personally, week 2 is always the hardest. The first week is ok, then into week 2 it gets so hard and usually by about day 12 - 14 things start getting better - supply levels out, baby starts to be able to coordinate breathing & swallowing, you get into a groove, etc. So hang in there!! I'm super fair skinned with red hair so I'm predisposed for nipple issues too. I have used a nipple shield in the first few weeks with both of my youngest because when you're cracked and bleeding, that CAN help, but the sooner you're off it, the better. Don't be afraid to try it though, even using a NS for months if it means you're successfully BFing is better then switching to formula when you didn't have to IMO. Best of luck!!!

[jodieanneanton]

Just want to reach through the computer and give you a huge hug. 

It's hard, but it'll get better.  Glad the lc helped...  

What color are baby's poops?  Green poop means oversupply.  I have dealt with it with all of my kiddos... no fun.  :(  Is that what the LC thinks is the problem?

[SlimP]

Buko, I've nothing new to add advice-wise, everyone has covered that already, but I just wanted to send hugs your way and to reassure you it does get easier. It's tricky when both you and brand new baby are learning together.....but so so worth it when it clicks.