A Fifth Trimester? « Back to Group Discussions

[MrsKoehn]

Anyone else have a baby going for a fifth trimester? Ana is 17 weeks today, 4 months tomorrow. She is still so clingy and needy. I think it's her personality more than anything. However, both moms, my sister a few random people here and there tell me that by baby wearing and co-sleeping, nursing on demand and not letting her cry it out I have created a monster.

She still eats nearly hourly, but Mom said all of us did that. She's hitting the "4 month fussies" too so that's also no bueno. She thinks naps have to be taken in my lap or in the wrap. When she's awake, she wants held all the time. She'll play with her toys, depending, in her bouncer, swing, Bumbo, or activity center (proud to say I spent a while $5 total for all that. It's either borrowed or gifts that came from the second hand store plus one second hand purchase) for anywhere from one minute to thirty. Usually about five before she fusses. When she's being held she's happy as a lark.

I broke my toe a few weeks ago, so I didn't use the wrap for two full weeks. Now she doesn't like it for long. She's getting so big is hard to do anything with her in it anyway. She's only about 13 lbs and 24", but I'm only 5' and 110 lbs. With big boobs to boot, so that makes her push even farther out in front of me. Lol

I'm thinking of a back carrier, but that scares me a little for some reason. My sils love the Ergo. That can be a back carrier can't it? I've seen so many things I forget.

Okay. I'm done singing, as my Dad would say. I have wondered how everyone else is doing and how you get anything done. My house is starting to get piles, that disturbs me. My Mom keeps saying that's just how she started. Her house can almost be on a talk show about hoarders now. I DO NOT want to go there but I also can't just stand Ana freaking out when I set her down. I got half my dishes done just now and she was okay. She got fussy so I moved her from the bouncer to the swing. Both were right next to me. She was fine for two minutes. I made her wait because she was clean and fed, just wanted me. Oh she screamed. That just didn't sit right with me. She calmed down when I picked her up and walked around. Now she's nursed to sleep in my lap. I can either sit here or put her down and wake her up 9/10 of the time. Sigh*

Okay. I'll really stop now. Talk to me, ladies.

[kateaton]

Genevieve will be 4 months on saturday, and so far, she is my easiest baby.  My one saving grace is that she will take good naps in the swing.  She seems to need 3 decent naps a day.  When she's sleeping I get stuff done.  When she's awake she is definitely demanding- she is pretty much held all the time.  I can buy some time by laying her on the floor next to her big sisters and she is entertained for a while.  But being the 3rd she just has to be adaptable.  She is not the only child that has needs.  So sometimes she just has to fuss in her bouncy seat for a bit.  I find it very difficult to wear her to do things like cook dinner (which probably isn't even safe anyway).  She's 15 pounds and very long.  I've been thinking about pulling out my ergo soon.  Yes, you can back carry with the ergo, but I've never done it with a baby this young.  I have to find my manual too.

My oldest daughter sounds a lot like your Ana.  She was so needy and clingy and would often fuss even while being held.  It was so exhausting.  We could never put her down for more than a minute awake.  But she did take decent naps, so that perserved my sanity somewhat.  I did a lot of mom group type of things with her- it helped to be around other adults.

I found that when she became mobile she was so much happier.  Also, she was a very early talker and that helped too.  I think she felt frustrated that she couldn't communicate when she was a younger baby.  By the time she was 9 months, she was a pretty content kid, except for the car seat (but that's a different story).  So hang in there, things may be very different in a few months.

[MrsKoehn]

Genevieve sounds great! Lol My Mom tells me 'she made the same mistakes with' me, her oldest child. Um, okay. She said after the third they are easier though. The older ones can entertain one another and also bring you toys and things to help.

I sure hope she gets better when she's mobile. I keep telling myself that she will. Hope I'm right! Lol I think she'll be an early talker. She's communicated well from the start and is very chatty. Plus, being the oldest is mostly around adults so that happens a lot it seems.

Thanks for the encouragement!

[PacificMar]

Whew, I'm so relieved to know that Luthien's not the only clingy little one out there. She is also still a frequent nurser; I really thought that by almost 15 weeks, she wouldn't still be requesting her next meal a half-hour to an hour after the previous one. Yet she does give us a reasonable night's sleep (she gets up about every three or four hours between 8 p.m. and 7 a.m.), which is why she gets extra anxious to cram in the milk before dropping off for the night.

She's also gotten extra-clingy lately, perhaps associated with that whole object-permanence thing. A week or so ago, I could put her down on her sleeping mat at work to type up a patient's chart, but now she has to have one of us down on the floor with her at all times or she's worried that we've disappeared. I'll try bringing her sling to work and see if this helps. She's recently gotten more comfortable with it, as long as she's in a supported-sit, outward-facing position. Before that, she'd howl when placed in a lying-down position in it, which seemed to make her feel trapped. She likes her Ergo, probably because she gets to be upright, although she faces in. She loves being upright; lying down gets her frustrated, as if we're giving her the hint to go to sleep. I hope to transition her to the back carry soon. We have this baby insert that's recommended through four to five months, whenever their legs are long enough to wrap around your waist. Until then, they're supposed to be legs-in; I believe a mei tai-style carrier will let you wear a baby on your back with legs in, but I just can't afford another carrier when she's getting close to four months. I'm eager for the back position because she's getting so heavy to carry in front. 

I'm hoping both our little ones get happier when they're mobile and can communicate in a way that satisfies them. Luthien's also a talkative baby; you can tell she's trying to speak as we do, as she moves her mouth in this exaggerated imitation of speech, and she will complain even after being fed, having her diaper changed, and being held and soothed, so I think she's starting to develop more complex needs, such as meaningful social interaction!  Of course, being able to move around the house and office will create new dilemmas...

[MrsKoehn]

And does better at night but hits a point anywhere between 2 and 5, usually 3, that she wakes hourly till 7-9, when she gets up for a couple hours. A few random nights she sleeps in big chunks all night. I love those but usually have to pump a little so she can latch right. I think she's a little tongue tied but no worse than I am. But I didn't EBF. Maybe she's not getting enough to satisfy in to of just being clingy?

Oh I hear that! Mobility well be a blessing and a curse, I think. Lol. No more Kleenex on the floor, vitamin basket will have to go somewhere else too. I'm not going to put up everything. Just What she could get hurt on. The rest is to teach her that the world is not her play toy. When people visit whose kids haven't learned that, I want to suggest they go outside with the dogs. I don't want my kids to be that way. Lol

[sere234]

Lol, my kids stay in the 5th trimester until 12ish months at least! And you know, I'm not too worried about it this time around. I'm really not. I am stressed by all the demands on my life now but not worried. DS1 will be THREE years old this summer and I am so very glad I've cuddled and nursed and loved him so much. I don't remember all the moments we've spent together but they've helped form this kid that is the sweetest ball of never ending energy you've ever seen. And also, DS1 SLEEPS now. As in, sleeps 11-12 hours at night, waking once to crawl in our bed early morning and sleep more. My mom says he's too attached to me and maybe (to her) he is. But I seriously doubt I'll ever look back and say, "Dang, if only I'd distanced him a little more. All that lovin' did him no good!". Yeah right. This kid who is secure and independent enough to happily be babysat by family members, greet strangers, wave to anyone, and um, run away without a backward glance in the museum is not too attached.

So I've got that. I've got an older kid to give me confidence but when he was tiny, oh how I worried. And he was such a needy baby! I worried I was making him that way and not teaching him to sleep/play/live independently. My word! Having a second baby is awesome simply because I can say: Hey, my kids are who they are. And their father and I are here to support who they are and guide them along the way.

We lucked out with Everett since he's such a laid back baby. From his very first day he was. When he was in the NICU, I remember marveling that we could lay him on his back and he'd SLEEP. Wowee, DS1 never did that. Well, now that E isn't a tiny, "sleeping 23 hours a day" baby his sleep is tougher but still, he's such a joy. He will lay on his playmat, bouncer, or pak and play for 20-30 minutes quite happily before getting bored. Then we move him or talk to him or hold him and he'll keep going for another hour or two. It's who HE is. DS1 wasn't that kind of kid! 

Everett is 18 pounds and yep, the back carry for the Ergo is awesome. Also, I nurse him in it or force him to take the pacifier in it () and he naps on me for 95% of his naps. I simply cannot keep DS1 quiet enough or get him to stop kissing his little bro for Everett to fall asleep anywhere else. And while it isn't ideal, it's the best I can do now with an almost 4 mo and a no-napping 2.5 yo. And I'm accepting that on a daily basis. It certainly isn't easy but hey, I know it will only last a few more months.

Having a toddler shows me how they truly do not want and need you ever this much again. DS1 doesn't have much time for cuddling and being held so I get my fix from the Tiny Boy. Everett WILL sleep better in a few months. I have full confidence in this. DS1 was the world's worst sleeper and improved all the time. And though E is such a laid back baby, he is still a BABY. He still wants Mama for anything and everything. No one else can put him to sleep most of the time, not even DH. Everett will scream bloody murder. And even if E doesn't naturally sleep better by 6 months or even one year, he will be able to LEARN to sleep better. In my book, 3-4 months is too young for learning how to sleep like society/life demands. Perhaps we'll gently try to change E's sleeping around 6-9 months. Maybe we can get him to sleep on a flat surface then, lol! And by then we'll have all adapted to one another and won't be getting to know each other while pushing sleep and independence on a baby at the same time. 

DS1 also became much happier after learning big physical milestones such as sitting, crawling, and walking. I loved having a mobile baby. Though it was another giant challenge, DS1 was thrilled with it and very much occupied by destroying the house, lol. And you know, everyone will freak you out about the next "horrible" stage in your kid's life. Everyone will insist you aren't doing it the "right" way. Does no one relish the neediness of babies? Note to self, say that when E wakes at 4 AM to eat again.  Anyway, have you read The Wonder Weeks book? Or the blog Ask Moxie? I love Moxie, she has such a "You know your kid best, TRUST yourself" philosophy that really inspires me. 

Seriously, try very hard not to stress about it. You child has been alive for FOUR FREAKING MONTHS. And of course I tell you this after e-mailing a friend, begging her to remind me it does get better and no, I won't die from lack of sleep. Love your kid, take millions of pictures, stare at her in the dark, hold her every minute. You don't have to love all those moments, you can downright HATE them sometimes but do it, because one day you'll wish you had. And you can tell yourself you loved your kid every chance you got. You wore her and held her every time she needed you. You may not have gotten to her as fast as SHE wanted you to, you may not have made her stop crying every time but you did it. One day your kid will scream at you and hit you and you will scream back and lock him in his room so you don't spank him. But you'll know everything will be better soon. And one day your kid will hopefully look at you and say "Thanks!".

Obviously, from the craziness of my post I'm writing this for you here and me. NONE of you have considered spanking your older LO's at this stressful time in your life I'm sure, lol. Anyway, hold on, keep going. The 5th and 6th trimesters will end one day :)

[guen]

This all sounds completely normal to me!  Kaelan spends his days in arms, napping in my lap or napping in the didytai.  He will lie on the bed or in his bouncy chair for a few minutes and babble to me or his toys or just watch me when I need to put him down. Sometimes as long as 10 minutes or more.  But he's a very happy baby and doesn't spend much time fussing unless he has a pressing need (hungry, tired or dirty diaper).  This is pretty much the way all my babies have been for the first year, though it eases up towards the end of the year as they learn to self-locomote.  I always laugh when the ped asks me how often my baby nurses,  Good grief, who's counting!  They nurse on and off all day and all night.  You are NOT creating a monster by meeting all of her needs like this.  Being held, nursing all the time, this is what a human baby needs.  You are creating a relationship based on security and trust.  Don't second guess yourself! 

The messy house...well, I understand how frustrating that is.  I am a bit OCD about my house and have four other kids and a DH to boot, so it's very difficult (read: impossible) to keep things to the standard I'd like and as for laundry....well, laundry for seven people plus cloth nappies....it's never done!  I'm trying to be zen about it, but it's hard.  That said, I know K is my last and I know that this time goes frighteningly fast. I'm finding it much easier to accept that I can't keep up with things now, knowing that, in a year or so, that will change and things will slowly start getting easier. With my first baby, I had no concept of just how fast this babe-in-arms period passes by and how much I would miss it when it did, so I felt frustrated and a little trapped.  As to getting things done... I try to stay flexible.  I try to get him down to nap in the diditai and work while he sleeps, or if he falls asleep in my lap or at the breast, I try to make sure I have handi-work such as mending or knitting to hand, or a book that I keep meaning to finish or post that needs sorting through, or, or, or....I've learned his patterns--1 to 2 hours nap, wake, nurse, 1 hour or so happy content time, nurse, nap--and anything I need to be able to do without him in my arms I plan for his well-rested, fed, content times. I'll put him in his bouncy chair and sit beside him folding laundry or whatever it is. I know I'll only have about 10 minutes, so I plan accordingly and prioritize. Other things, such as vacuuming, I can do better when he is sleeping in the didyai.  He is my biggest baby by a long shot, though, and I've never had so much back pain while wearing my babies as I have had with him, so I am looking forward to when he can start riding on my back, at least some of the time (I love, love, love wearing him on my front and constantly kiss and smell the top of his head--my back be damned!).  He's also getting harder to settle down in the wrap or didytai. He used to go straight to sleep the minute he was tied onto dh or to me.  Now he fusses much longer before settling in and going to sleep. His increasing weight and my increasing back pain coupled with his restlessness in the carrier have made me have to get more creative with how I do things.  But one thing is for certain:  I will NOT PUT MY BABY DOWN. I'm gonna miss this so much when he's older so I'm not going to miss a minute of it now, while he still wants to be in my arms!!!

[MrsKoehn]

Thank you for that, Sere. I needed the reminder. :) She's actually asleep in the swing at the moment, which I doubt lasts long. She was pretty tired though. With hubby home in the mornings right now and the girls here for school, she just gets so worn out in the mornings, poor baby!

Funny you said that last thing about spanking. A friend was mortified that I hadn't started to spank her yet... as of a few weeks ago. "Well when are you going to start teaching her??" I've been teaching her since day one you weirdo. And guess what, the screaming she was doing when she'd lay down to nurse that "needed the spanking" was dealt with by just not letting her eat till she calmed down, sitting her back up, talking to her. No spanking needed. :|

[guen]

Did I understand you correctly?  Spank a four month old?  How do you even do that???  I feel sick. What kind of person is this woman?

[sere234]

Guen- love that you refuse to put your baby down! E's ped asked if he was rolling, ect. and I had to say, um, he actually is held and worn a lot so I'm not sure!

Mrskoehn- I'm kinda horrified when my mom and Mil tell me to spank my TWO year old, can't imagine someone suggesting to spank a four month old! I've got some resentment toward my parents for spanking and letting me and my siblings CIO. But they at least waited until we were older than 4 months to do both of those things! Ugh. So sad

[guen]

Originally Posted by sere234 

Guen- love that you refuse to put your baby down! E's ped asked if he was rolling, ect. and I had to say, um, he actually is held and worn a lot so I'm not sure!

Sure he is!  Whenever I lay him down to change him, he rolls onto his side! A lot of emphasis is put on "tummy time" these day, too, because babies are supposed to be sleeping on their backs, but none of my babies spent any appreciable time out of arms in the early months, so none of them got much "tummy time".  Funnily enough, not one of my older four has a problem holding his or her head up now, LOL!

Mrskoehn- I'm kinda horrified when my mom and Mil tell me to spank my TWO year old, can't imagine someone suggesting to spank a four month old! I've got some resentment toward my parents for spanking and letting me and my siblings CIO. But they at least waited until we were older than 4 months to do both of those things! Ugh. So sad

I hope that crazy b!*@& who suggested that isn't a mother.  Ever since reading that last night, I've felt nauseous when I think about it.  How could anyone even want to hit a baby?!?  Especially a baby who can't even sit up yet?  It's evil.

[franjapany]

what? what's going on with the spanking and cio? I thought those kind of people have become extinct by now! I actually heard something like that from my neighbour's mom the other day, along the lines of 'wouldn't want to spoil him too much' and for a moment there I thought she was joking but sadly she really wasn't.

around here I most certainly am the talk of the town because I don't own a stroller and people always inquire about my back, if things weren't getting too much for me, carrying the baby all the time. oh, and the other day a neighbour caught me yawning and asked: 'tired already?' and I only just could help myself not to say 'are you f**ing kidding me???' but instead said 'yeah, well, I am pretty much always tired: I have a BABY!' and he said something like 'oh, so he doesn't sleep through the night yet' at which point I just tuned out and figured it wasn't worth my energy to pursue that line of conversation.

honestly: having three kids under 5 is hard. absolutely no doubt about it. I am always tired and I wouldn't get through the day without my two coffees (one in the morning, one after lunch). The cold weather is doing my head in, because leaving the house with three kids who can't really dress themselves yet is soo exhausting. but, I am only half joking when I say: my baby is my absolute favorite at the moment. the other two are having a really hard time at the moment and junis is just such a mellow and super friendly little guy! my sweet sweet baby! For us he is our last one too (with 95% certainty) and I cherish him all the more. He also gets held a lot, but I do put him down when I need to get stuff done and he is content enough to roll about or grab the chimes thingy I put over his blanket. He seems to prefer using his left hand and also appears to be the most responsive of my three kids when it comes to music. whenever he starts to complain and I just can't pick him up, because I am in the middle of cooking lunch or one of the others needs me in a way that requires both hands and no baby in a carrier, I sing to him and he stops complaining instantly and kind of cocks his head and  listens intently. *love*

so, someone said that there was some kind of comet passing the earth these days and I really do hope that this explains the craziness that's been going on with my two 'big' ones. because I desperately need a break.
 

[guen]

Loved your post, frangapany!  I'm known in the village here for always wearing my babies, too (well, so is DH for that matter!). I've had several good-natured "comlaints" that no one can see my baby's face because he's always "bundled up" in didytai and under my coat.  I did put him in the Kinderwagen a couple of times because my back was killing me and I wanted to get out of the house. But I hated it. It sits in the front hall and gathers coats, hats and scarves now... But really, we couldn't live without our Kinderwagen--where would we put all of our crap on family outings??  (I have my heart set on getting an Ulfbo (http://www.ulfbo.de/shop/)  though and ditching the Kiwa completely, much more practical!)

People generally make kind of stupid remarks and I usually just laugh and make it clear that I think they certainly *must* be joking (except when I am really tired and some idiot thinks they are helping me somehow by saying "well, you chose to have so many kids", thanks, you can eff off now...).  But if anyone were ever to suggest I hit my child or-- freaking he!!-- my baby you can bet I'd be going all postal in their face!

Yes, this weather SUCKS!  It's such a drag to get everyone booted and suited though, thankfully, my olders can dress themselves. The 3 y.o. still needs a lot of help, though, and the olders are all so busy bickering with each other that no one can help the 3 y.o.  Does my head in!  I think this extended winter is really getting to everyone.  WE NEED SPRING!! 

[PacificMar]

Whoa, I'm just horrified speechless that anyone would advocate spanking a baby--and to call it "teaching"? Sure, she's teaching that poor little one something, but it's probably not what she wants to teach him/her--fear and pain, not respect or "good behavior," which isn't an age-appropriate expectation. I'm sorry you were subjected to such a cruel approach, Mrs. Koehn.

I've had my share of frustrating moments when my husband and I have gone down our list of reasons Luthien could be crying and none of the things we do console her; It's just heartbreaking when she keeps crying and we're doing our best to help and it's not helping. This happens in late afternoon and evening and we think it's sensory overload, which we try to moderate by providing her with gentle transitions, quiet time, and acceptance, as well as being in our arms just about constantly. (She does like to sit in our papasan chair and lie down near our cats for brief periods so she can practice sitting, rolling, and grabbing things.) We also try to console ourselves that even if she doesn't stop crying right away, she can still feel our love and caring and she's in our arms while upset, not forced to deal with overwhelming emotions by herself.

But to have this interpreted as "bad" behavior and to frighten an already upset child even more by hitting him/her...grr. That makes me so mad. If I weren't a pacifist, I'd be tempted to spank the parent. 

[sere234]

PacificMar- my older son would get easily overstimulated too It's such a terribly hard thing for a baby to recover from and can take hours so get them back to calm place. Ds2 doesn't do this nearly as often and I don't think it's just because we are second time parents. The tiny dude sure gets subjected to life's busyness and his brother's needs so I'm still surprised that he'll happily fall asleep when over tired. And of course he will still occasionally have his stressed out, walk him for an hour spells once in a while. Nothing like ds1 though. For us, it was the kid's temperament. Ds1 is a highly energetic 2.5 yo now who still can take 30-60 minutes of bedtime help to fall asleep. He's immensely delightful and brilliant, just a very different babyhood than Everett has shown.

[MrsKoehn]

Yesterday was hubby's only day of this week. Ana was so good all evening! The day before, hubby had decided to watch a movie instead of working on the bathroom remodel so she fell asleep on him. I made cookies, burgers, did dishes, made his lunch for work, and are my food before she got up. I felt like super woman!

The woman who suggested I spank Ana has kids a bit older and her tubes tied, so you'll be glad to hear that. I'm not anti spanking, but I would certainly not spank a baby, much less an infant. That's just stupid.

[guen]

I'm sorry, but it's more than just stupid.  I feel awful for her kids.
 

[MrsKoehn]

You'd be surprised how many people tout that.

In other news, Ana actually wanted to be in the wrap more this week, that was nice, but I've also been more sick. I think she's still totally in the 5th trimester though. I lay her down in her crib for a nap after she nursed. I lay down in my bed by her. She would wake up, look at me, smile, and hold my hand. It was so sweet and I did get a little nap in. :) She's getting a little more into tummy time too.

[sere234]

Okay, I have admit Everett gets very little tummy time.  He is held and worn a lot and sits in his little bouncy/rocker chair otherwise. DH was worried about the tummy time but I read somewhere that it's not that big of a deal and babywearing accomplishes what tummy time does (core strengthening). E rolled from tummy to back at 3 months? I think. I'd have to look in his baby book, lack of sleep makes me crazy! And last week, at 4 months old he managed to roll back to tummy and DANG, now I can't set the kid down without him doing it! I set him down in he middle of the playroom this morning and dashed off to grab something. When I returned he was 5 feet away from his starting point, on his way into DS1's play tent. Whoa! Moving that fast already?!?! NOOOOO!!!!! 

So the moral of the story is: if you are like me and a tummy time slacker, your kid will still roll over right on schedule. Probably. 

Also- E still screams in the car.  And sometimes he has to CIO in there too, it's so awful. I stop to make sure he is full and clean and he always is, he just wants me to hold him so badly. So then I drive home/to my destination as quickly and safely as possible and the poor tiny boy screams. And I hold his hand and sing and beg him to stop, half in the front seat and half in the back seat. When it gets to that awful gasping scream I pull over and grab him out. When we are finally where need to be, E is such a wreck half the time. He's so sad and whiny and clingy as he tries to get over his abandonment. It's so very pathetic and heartbreaking. But it makes me think people who let their babies CIO and those who spank their kids, wowee, how the heck do they do it?? I struggle to let my 4 mo cry 10-15 straight in his carseat! I've smacked my toddler two different times in great frustration (on those long no nap afternoons  ) and feel so freaking awful for it afterwards. It must take a strong and unfeeling heart to ignore a baby's screams or to spank a kid to teach him/her a lesson. 

[PacificMar]

Thanks, fellow tummy-time slackers; I feel so much better! Luthien has a strong trunk because of the ways she prefers to be held. She doesn't like to lie down in her sling but prefers being upright, alternately facing in and facing out, and she's always practicing sitting up on our laps. She rolls over just fine while being changed and does push-ups, so she hasn't needed us to put her on her belly; she gets there just the same.

I think the idea of tummy time is to prevent plagiocephaly (a flat spot on the back of the head), which can occur with prolonged lying on the back. It doesn't seem as much of a possibility with sling-carried (or other carriers) babies, though; they're not lying on their backs all day.

Luthien had her naming ceremony at our community Passover seder this past week. Her Hebrew name is Liora Shira bat Simcha v'Miryam (Liora means "light," Shira means "song," bat means "daughter [of]," and Simcha and Miryam are our Hebrew names.) The gown she's wearing is special, as it was the christening outfit of our dear friends' son, of blessed memory, and she wore it in his honor.

 

She surprised us by doing so well with 30 people around her. At first she let out a howl, but then she fell asleep and, upon waking, decided that all of the people were OK. She also did well on her longest car trip yet--45 minutes. She likes having somebody sitting next to her in the back seat so that she's entertained.