Questions from a FTM considering the non-vax route

[MamaBlueBird]

Hi everyone. I hope I'm in the right place. I'm currently pregnant with my first child, a boy, due in July.

My husband and I have heard a lot of negative things about vaccinations and we've done some surface research and talked with a few people we know, but nothing in depth. We are highly considering not vaccinating and for awhile, we were dead set on not vaccinating, but now I'm getting scared. I don't want anything bad to happen to my baby from the vaccinations, but the scare tactics from people about my baby getting whooping cough or polio or otherwise very sick is starting to get to me and make me reconsider my stance. I'm a FTM who just wants the best for her baby.

So I was hoping some people could give me their stories about what led you to a non-vax stance? What information or resources helped you make an informed decision? Also, what have you done to protect your kids from diseases and sickness while not being vaccinated?

If anyone can help me with information, especially some credible information on the subject, I'd really appreciate it. I need to pick a pediatrician soon for our baby and the decision I make on vaxing will influence the kind of doctor I end up going to. Thank you so much!

[Taximom5]

Welcome aboard!

Many of us here started out vaxxing totally on schedule, and only learned of the risks after our children had severe reactions to the vaccines.

Personally, if I could do it all over again, I'd hold off on all vaccines for at least a couple of years, and then only do a select few, like polio.

I'm sure the pro-vaxxers will say that parents of children who suffered from "vaccine-preventable illnesses" wish that they could go back in time and vaccinate for those illnesses.

But one thing I've learned is that the vaccine manufacturers have lied about both safety and efficacy of their vaccines.  So we don't know how effective they really are, or how dangerous they may be. We do know that they can cause seizures, brain damage, and death, and that the manufacturers have lied about how often that can happen.

We also know that complications from "vaccine-preventable illnesses" are far less likely in well-nourished (especially exclusively breast-fed) babies with no underlying medical issues.

And, since vaccines can CAUSE persisting medical issues (like mitochondrial damage, autoimmune disorders, intestinal problems which cause malnourishment, etc.), and since there are so many vaccines on the schedule--well, logically, it makes more sense to me to forego the vaccinations.

[Marnica]

Welcome and congratulations on your pregnancy!

All I can tell you is my own journey.  have 2 unvaxed kids ages 5 (almost) and 10 months. 

I used to be very provax, pro pharma, pro conventional medicine in general and my health sucked coincidentally! Long before I was married and had kids I met the sister of my then boyfriend's best friend and she did not vaccinate her son. She was crunchy and was into natural medicine. At the time it never occurred to me that one did not vaccinate and honestly I thought she was some kind of freak of nature and was probably going to harm her baby by not vaccinating. Fast forward a bunch of years and I was dating my current husband (still not married or kids yet) and a friend at work tells me about a friend of hers who 3 month old had died of "SIDS" but that the mom felt that it was the DTaP as it occurred 14 hours after the vaccine. Again at the time this seemed ridiculous to me and I thought to myself "I'm going to look into this because I would like to prove this person wrong" - I love when I can tell people they are wrong - hahaha!) This started a years long obsession with this topic. I started reading surface stuff - propaganda mostly that just reinforced what I thought I knew. Then I thought I need to dig deeper - I need to examine the other side. What I have discovered has shocked me, sickened me and I have learned a whole lot more about our government and public health officials than I bargained for, but by the time I had kids I knew I would not vaccinate them. 

As for what I read - lots of things. websites, The CDC pinkbook, I scoured VAERS, books, medical studies. I amassed a long list of links that I put together years ago that Id be happy to share with you. You can PM me with an email address if you'd like. 

Anyway I can appreciate that you get scared. I get scared too sometimes and from time to time doubt my choices, but I always just go back and re read my material and keep examining new evidence and I have yet to see anything that has convinced me that the benefit of vaccinating is greater than the risk. Cooincidentally as I was learning about all of this, I started getting more and more into natural and alternative medicine because conventional medicine was making me sicker and sicker and I was tired of it's ineffectiveness and wanted to try something else. I have made a 180 degree turn. I embraced natural medicine and my health improved. My family and I take alot of supplements, I try and avoid crappy food and eat organic when ever possible, I have air purifiers in my home, I have emf protectors on all my electronics. we do not use chemicals in our home or on our lawn. In short I do what I can to avoid things that make us sick and to build a strong immune system. 

[sassyfirechick]

Congrats!

I was also pro-vax at one point in my life, and was a pre-vet major in college which was incredibly one sided - vaccinate, feed commercial food, never trust anything that isn't "studied" by science based companies.

Then I bought my first purebred dogs, spent 10k in vet bills the first year for pnemonia that I always felt was the result of overvaccination causing a damaged immune system that allowed kennel cough to go from benign cold to major life-threatening illness.  When the vet rudely discounted my concerns I started to read.  Detoxed the dogs from a year of antibiotics, got them on a raw diet, and finally saw them thriving.  My family has always been pro-chiropractor, so that was the first "non traditional" outlet I chose when I was getting bad migraines.  It lead me to re-evaluate my own choices and I started to decline vaxes and boosters when I was 21 (I've never had a fl vax, thankfully my mother never saw a point to that one).

Fast forward 6 years and I became pregnant with DD.  I thought initially I would be select/delay vax.  I knew for certain I would never be ok with CP or flu vax and I definitely was not a fan of MMR.  I didn't read into the others quite as much.  When DD was born, I had enough sense to write out a very long, very specific birth "plan" knowing that in a true emergency things might change but there were certain absoute NO's for me - No vit K, no Heb B in hospital,  No antibiotic eye ointment.  I allowed the Heb B first visit with the pedi (my reasoning was 'no vax in hopspital setting loaded w germs', looking back clearly there are germs in a dr's office and I wish I had opted out but it's done).  We did the pentacel (DTaP/Polio/Hib) at 2 and 5 mos (I pushed it off to 5mos bc DD had a cold just prior to her 4mo visit), and that's where we stopped.  The reactions she had were horrible and how anyone could listen to a child scream like that, and for that long and NOT think there was something wrong is beyond me.  But that's what we were told by the pedi - her reactions were "bad....but still normal".  I sign a waiver at the office now, and while the pedi did come at me once with the fear talk about all the bad things that come from these preventable diseases, I told her outright I'm not comfortable with the reactions and I won't be continuing to vax.  She's been fine with that so far.

DD has always had dairy sensitivity, but she developed severe reactions to oats around 6 mos with full blown head to toe hives, coincidentally shortly after her last set of vaxes.  So we found a naturopathic doctor who's working to lessen/eliminate the reactions to both.

As far as protection, we don't live in a coccoon.  We don't own hand sanitizer or even antibacterial soap.  DD is 16mos and still nursing often with no real signs of weaning any time soon - which is fine by me, the longer she nurses, the longer my immune system will support hers.  We eat as much organic as we can afford, no lawn chemicals or chemical cleaners in the house.  I prefer natural shampoos, soaps, toothpaste and oils - DH is less picky in that department and will buy his own stuff so he doesn't smell "fruity" around the guys at work (firehouse) lol.  Vitamin C and D are taken daily, and DD is on probiotics as well for her food sensitivities.  We are forever on the lookout for an opportunity to get exposure to CP (for her to get them and for me/DH to get a booster from them), and I don't necesarily avoid sick people.  My thought is, if her immune system functions as it should, she will get sick from time to time and that will only allow her body to work at building antibodies.  Colds in our house don't last much more than 3-5 days and are pretty mild.  I can say that this winter alone I've had 3 minor colds - little sniffling and stuffy nose for a few days, nothing more (currently have #3 but this is more on par with my yearly Feb/March sinus congestion as the weather changes).  DD has had one - the one we shared over Christmas after a pedi visit.  Bc she's still nursing, everytime my body is fighting something, she gets antibodies.  If she were to pick up a cold before me, maybe while out with my FIL during the day, as soon as her lips touch my skin to nurse, her body sends a message to mine to begin producing antibodies - for a cold I don't even have but for her benefit. 

So while the fear mongering is going to be constant, you have to listen to what feels best for you - don't leave the final decision of vaxxing up to someone who doesn't have you're LO's best interest in mind and who uses fear to force you to make a decision.. I promise it gets better and easier to stand up and say no as time goes one!

[fruitfulmomma]

None of our children are vaxxed. I read a bunch when I was pregnant with the oldest and came to believe that the illness my husband suffered from as a child was from dpt. Also he remembers being sick after multiple different vaxxes. 

Everything I've read since then just reinforces our decision.

[Sabijo]

Hi,

I am in the same boat, though a little further along (1 1/2 YO with baby #2 on the way!) and I still haven't reached a conclusion! I have read terrible stories about irreversible damamges done (brain inflamation), and on the other hand, our pediatrician gently reminds me that the diseases out there can be fatal (oh the consequences of our decisions!). Its been a very difficult battle thus far! I am not sure if not vaccinating is ultimately the route for me b/c I get so worried about diseases! Also, no one in my family (that I know of) has had a bad reaction to vaccines. And if I do choose them in the future, I would only do one at a time, never combine.

I think it depends on your lifestyle and personality: if you are travelling, or near many immigrants, or in the city, or very very paranoid about illness, then maybe it causes more harm to not vaccinate. I want to trust in the body's ability to fight disease and heal itself. One reason I felt comfortable with the non-vaccination route early on is that I was breast feeding, and DD was only home with me, not at a day care, not exposed to countless other families. Now that she is not breastfeeding, I have new concerns and am revisiting the topic.

When I discuss my concerns with the pediatrician, I know they are holding back disapproval, and its hard to be on that end. They ask what sources I use. I would also be grateful to any of you moms with firm beliefs in non vaccination if you shared some solid sources, links to articles and such!

Thanks a bunch~

[emmy526]

Originally Posted by Sabijo 

Hi,

I am in the same boat, though a little further along (1 1/2 YO with baby #2 on the way!) and I still haven't reached a conclusion! I have read terrible stories about irreversible damamges done (brain inflamation), and on the other hand, our pediatrician gently reminds me that the diseases out there can be fatal (oh the consequences of our decisions!). Its been a very difficult battle thus far! I am not sure if not vaccinating is ultimately the route for me b/c I get so worried about diseases! Also, no one in my family (that I know of) has had a bad reaction to vaccines. And if I do choose them in the future, I would only do one at a time, never combine.

I think it depends on your lifestyle and personality: if you are travelling, or near many immigrants, or in the city, or very very paranoid about illness, then maybe it causes more harm to not vaccinate. I want to trust in the body's ability to fight disease and heal itself. One reason I felt comfortable with the non-vaccination route early on is that I was breast feeding, and DD was only home with me, not at a day care, not exposed to countless other families. Now that she is not breastfeeding, I have new concerns and am revisiting the topic.

When I discuss my concerns with the pediatrician, I know they are holding back disapproval, and its hard to be on that end. They ask what sources I use. I would also be grateful to any of you moms with firm beliefs in non vaccination if you shared some solid sources, links to articles and such!

Thanks a bunch~

here is a link to the inserts so you can see the poison they deem is "safe" to inject into your child

http://vactruth.com/vaccine-inserts/

Here are some questions to answer for yourself in deciding about vaccination:

1. Name of the disease
2. Description of the disease
3. Length of time from initial infection to end of all symptoms
4. Infectious period
5. Normal symptoms of the disease
6. Known serious consequences of the disease
7. Proportion of persons infected developing serious consequences
8. Transmission route of the disease
9. Prevalence of the disease
10. Treatments of the disease and efficacy of those treatments
11. Relevant research about the disease
12. Name of the vaccine
13. Company that makes the vaccine
14. Contents of the vaccine
14A. The significance of whether or not the vaccine is live
15. History of development of the vaccine
16. Known side-effects of the vaccine and rate of incidence of those side-effects
17. Possible side-effects not yet acknowledged by the vaccine maker
18. Relevant research into the vaccine
19. How effective is the vaccine at preventing the disease?
20.What is the vaccine meant to do? (Many vaccines are not meant to prevent infection or transmission).
21.Number of cases reported each year.
22.Number of deaths reported each year from the vaccine and natural disease.

Here are some sources to help you out:

Vaccines: The Risks, The Benefits, The Choices 1/18 DVD, By Sherri J. TENPENNY-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OORHqEedtUY



http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/mmwr_wk.html (download the current issue)

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/pink-chapters.htm

http://vaers.hhs.gov/pdf/PackageInserts.pdf

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7018835240451107552&q

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6351515212287981735&hl=en

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/cases&deaths.pdf


WHO GRAPH-http://apps.who.int/immunization_monitoring/en/globalsummary/timeseries/tsincidencepol.htm


Beyond Conformity Resources Page- http://www.beyondconformity.org.nz/resources

Do you have a quick-fire summary?- http://www.beyondconformity.org.nz/questions#

Inside Vaccines- http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/

http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/

http://het.sagepub.com/content/early/2011/05/04/0960327111407644.full.pdf+html
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/cases&deaths.pdf

http://vaers.hhs.gov/index

http://www.thinktwice.com/sids.htm

[emmy526]

A Review of Compensated Cases of Vaccine-Induced Brain Injury

Posted by: The Liberty Beacon™ Staff
Published March 17, 2013, filed under HEALTH

Parents Can’t Sue Vaccine Manufacturers

http://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/2013-02-18/shingles-goes-epidemic-chicken-pox-vax-to-blame/

http://www.informedchoice.info/cocktail.html

INFORMED CHOICE Vaccine Ingredients In a compulsory inoculation program, it is the responsibility of the developers, promoters and enforcers to prove safety and efficacy

a representative sample

[kathymuggle]

I have a 17, 14 and 10 yr old.

I stopped vaccinating when my oldest was about 18 months old, because the doctors were unable to answer my questions on disease prevalence.  I was disinclined to give my child a vaccine ( a drug) when I did not know what the chances were of my kid catching a disease.  This was at the dawn the internet, so while this information is now readily available online, it either was not back then or I did not know how to access it.

When I had my daughter a few years later, I re-initiated conversations with doctors on disease prevalence - once again I was not satisfied with the answers I got, so did not vaccinate.

I will admit I did not do a lot of research in the early days - I felt then, and feel now, that my healthy children were the default.  If you want me to allow you to inject my children with goodness know what, you better have a darn good reason for it and be able to make your case.  That did not happen, so I did not vax and went about my life.

With my 3rd child the world had changed.  The Internet did have a lot of the answers to my questions  (fwiw, one of the first things I suggest all newbies do is to familiarize themselves with the CDC pink book - particularly the appendix where it list just how uncommon most VADs are).  It turned out the prevalence of most diseases are not high enough for me to take any chance (even a tiny one ) on vaccines.  Do you know that virtually no one gets diphtheria in the USA - that tetanus happens to 1/ 12 000 000 people, and that even if everyone were unvaxxed (and most adults are not up to date on their boosters) the rate of tetanus would still be very, very low?  

Some pro-vaxxers made the point that the reason the VAD rates were so low was because of vaxxes.  I set out to figure out whether this is true or not.  What I discovered is that by and large it is not true, or it is true but the diseases are sufficiently mild that I do not care.

Disease that are so mild I do not care if they make a comeback - teens can vaccinate against them if they are not lucky enough to get them as children:

rota

chicken pox

mumps 

rubella

flu

diseases where the vaccines are sufficiently ineffective that  usage does not play into "keeping the rates really low"

flu

whooping cough

-tetanus was really rare to begin with

-diphtheria is largely a disease of overcrowding and poor sanitation.  It would not be an issue in wealthy countries even if vaccines did not exist

-heps are largely found in certain groups.  If you are not in that group, your risk is less.

I do not know enough about pneu. and men. vaccines to  comment, except to say I believe they are similar (although a little better, efficacy wise) than flu vaccines as they contain "strains" that are kicking around.  They do not protect against every strain, and what strains are dominant in out society do change from time to time.  

For me, the only vaccines the argument "do it to keep the diseases from coming back" has reasonable validity with is measles and Polio.  I cannot get a measles vaccine separate from mumps and rubella, and I probably could get a Polio vax separate if I wanted to.  Oh, well…naughty me on this regard.  I think I can live with myself.  

I also have very serious issues with trust when it comes to vaccines.  The study of vaccine and vaccine reactions is fraught with serious conflicts of interest, poor design study, and dismissal of parental reports of vaccine reactions.  Once again, I am not going to inject something into my healthy children when I cannot be assured of its safety.  

[Sabijo]

Thanks for the links and the insight into your decision making ladies, this is helpful!
 

[mom of twins]

Congrats!   Stay tuned in to this forum...I wish I found it earlier.  Great info and suggestions from real life experiences.  

If you haven't found a doctor yet, my advice is find a doctor who is okay with you delaying or not vaccinating at all.   For us, after 5 doctors who tried to bully us and kicked us out, it was a small family medicine practice.   (It might take you a while to find one - don't be discouraged.)  It seemed for us the larger pediatric practices were not open to delaying or skipping the vaccines.  Don't be bullied...even if you are not sure what your decision will be, remember it is your choice and there are doctors out there who will support your decision. 

Good luck!