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out of gentler solutions for 2.5 yo "violence" - Page 2

post #21 of 49
Thread Starter 
@ Kermit - thanks for the response! I've tried very similar stuff (using my hands to block instead if holding hers and trying to turn the sitch into a joke/game/competition). Does not work for my DD, unfortunately, but so glad it helps your son!!
post #22 of 49
Thread Starter 
Corrina said "When a dog constantly jumps on you when you come in the door, the quickest way to correct that behavior is to turn your back toward the dog and give it no reaction, give it no currency. This is the one of the few areas where kids are, well, pretty much like puppies. If there's no currency in the behavior, the normal healthy child will give up."

But how do you walk away when the kid will follow you and continue attacking? The only way to get away is to lock myself in a room, and then worry about my furious kid hurting herself. I'd rather stay with her and "defend" myself, know what I mean?
post #23 of 49
Thread Starter 
Thanks so much, Heatherdeg - those are great ideas!
post #24 of 49
Thread Starter 
@ Momov2 - thanks for replying. I don't understand how this would play out. You said when your child hits you've tried,

"If when that happens a parent goes in and gently, calmly stops the hitting - a hand on a chest, firm but gentle, to keep a little one from striking her sibling, or locating your body so that the child can see you but not kick you, like sitting behind them, works well. Then usually the child will cry and protest. This is good.
These are the hard feelings that need to be offloaded, and allow the child to come back to his/her good nature. Why? Because crying is a healing process, and if the child is allowed to cry out the fear in the presence of a loving adult, they can release the old hurt and return to their good natured self."

I cannot envision how a gentle, firm hand on the chest would stop a strong and furious nearly three year old (my DD), let alone an older child. Also, how would sitting behind her help? She would simply turn around and continue attacking. I'm wondering if these strategies are more effective with infants or very young toddlers?
Edited by pamplona - 4/10/13 at 10:29am
post #25 of 49

I want to mention ... Happiest Toddler on the Block.  Saying over and over again, you're mad/angry/sad because xyz or mommy made you angry/mad/sad when she did xyz  all in the same tone that your toddler is using. Then go on to correct the behavior after they are calming down.  

 

I also like the mention above about treating the behavior like you would a dog and turn your back and not engage.  I have used both of these methods depending the situation, and found that they work. 

 

I totally understand how infuriating it can be when your child hits you and/or there is a re-occuring negative behavior that will not go away! 

post #26 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by pamplona View Post

Corrina said "When a dog constantly jumps on you when you come in the door, the quickest way to correct that behavior is to turn your back toward the dog and give it no reaction, give it no currency. This is the one of the few areas where kids are, well, pretty much like puppies. If there's no currency in the behavior, the normal healthy child will give up."

But how do you walk away when the kid will follow you and continue attacking? The only way to get away is to lock myself in a room, and then worry about my furious kid hurting herself. I'd rather stay with her and "defend" myself, know what I mean?

 

When you defend yourself, you are engaging her. So the idea would be to turn your back and let her hit you. Then when she is done you would correct the behavior or engage her.  

post #27 of 49
Thread Starter 
Hmmm... If I turned my back she would still manage to get to both my front and back - she moves quick. And it's not just hitting - your suggestion would allow her to bite, pinch, kick and severely scratch me and my husband as well as hitting. Have you been through something like this?

I tend to feel like it's important to teach her that hurting others is not okay. If she tries to hurt me, I will defend myself and stop her. Just as I'd want her to eventually learn how to get away and/or defend herself if someone was hurting her. Know what I mean?
Edited by pamplona - 4/10/13 at 7:56pm
post #28 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by neonalee View Post

Corrina - My first thought reading your post was, that doesn't work he just gets more angry and ups the ante so to speak. But as I continued to read I tried to take a step back. And I wonder, what would happen if I could hold out longer? Because really, that's pretty darn logical. If they don't get a reaction and then we make absolutely sure to give a lot of attention to other behavior, well... that *should* work. It's just a matter of figuring out how long it takes. I'm not sure if I'm at a place to make this work yet, but maybe soon.
 

 

Hi Neonalee, sorry youre going through these rough times. You said something that made me step back and want to post on this thread. You said youre not in a place to make this work yet... so I just want to gently say that if -youre- not in a place to make it work then -he- isnt, either. Does that make sense? It has to come from -you- first. He's just a small kid. He has no idea what's up from down. So I strongly wonder if his behavior is somehow linked to your reaction, and as long as youre not able to make the right one (as a strong adult who has control over the situation 100% of the time) then he won't ever learn.

post #29 of 49

To the moms on this thread who have problems, just a question: have you ever let your husband/boyfriend/male figure be the one who tells your child NO? Not for nothing, but my daughter -really- listens to my husband when he emphatically says to STOP something. But she hardly listens to me, Mom. And growing up whatever my father said was the golden rule, but I didnt give much thought to my Mom when she drew the line.

 

Maybe Mom can't ever really be the NO-person because she is the empathy-person, so no amount of anything will work.
 

post #30 of 49
Thread Starter 
My DD actually attacks my husband more violently than she attacks me. He's had to go to work several times with big scratches across his neck or chest. We both say no and do all we can to physically keep her from attacking us, but sometimes DH doesn't see it coming in time to avoid getting hurt.
post #31 of 49
My DD1 was like this when she was little. She is sweeter than anything now, but has a lot of extreme meltdowns. There is no turning your back and ignoring a kid like that, it only makes it worse. I have another daughter and she responds very well to conventional ignore the tantrum advice. The difference between their tantrums is night and day. Anyway, I just wanted to say that I know what you are going through and that it is extremely hard. I never found a perfect solution, but definitely noticed triggers. They are as follows...tv or iPad, sugar and lack of sleep.
post #32 of 49
Have you tried praising her when she's behaving well?

The general rule of thumb is you need at least twice as many positive interactions as negative interactions.
post #33 of 49
For those ladies who haven't tried ignoring tantrums and all the rest, it really does work. I've used it with adults with cognitive disabilities most, but my own 21 month very spirited daughter who is entering this tantrum phase with a vengeance already responds well to it. For me, learning the triggers are key and then tantrums can be avoided altogether. Ignoring unwanted behavior it's a real tactic, it works and many professionals use it. One term for it is extinction. Those who are familiar with ABA (applied behavior analysis) and it's application will know it is usually used as a teaching tool. If you do decide to use this technique, it is very difficult at first, but the unwanted behavior usually goes away pretty quickly. Also know that there it's always another period of time where that behavior you got rid of flares back up. This is normal, the kid is testing you to see if you're serious. I encourage any parent to use this technique, I've seen it work many many times in my own professional and personal life.
Edited by Maisigh - 4/12/13 at 8:41am
post #34 of 49
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottishmommy View Post

My DD1 was like this when she was little. She is sweeter than anything now, but has a lot of extreme meltdowns. There is no turning your back and ignoring a kid like that, it only makes it worse. I have another daughter and she responds very well to conventional ignore the tantrum advice. The difference between their tantrums is night and day. Anyway, I just wanted to say that I know what you are going through and that it is extremely hard. I never found a perfect solution, but definitely noticed triggers. They are as follows...tv or iPad, sugar and lack of sleep.

Thanks, Scottishmommy - that was super helpful!! I agree that our best solution is also probably a combo of avoiding triggers when possible and the magical elixir of time. smile.gif
post #35 of 49
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maisigh View Post

For those ladies who haven't tried ignoring tantrums and all the rest, it really does work. I've used it with adults with cognitive disabilities most, but my own 21 month very spirited daughter who is entering this tantrum phase with a vengeance already responds well to it. For me, learning the triggers are key and then tantrums can be avoided altogether. Ignoring unwanted behavior it's a real tactic, it works and many professionals use it. One term for it is extinction. Those who are familiar with ABA (applied behavior analysis) and it's application will know it is usually used as a teaching tool. If you do decide to use this technique, it is very difficult at first, but the unwanted behavior usually goes away pretty quickly. Also know that there it's always another period of time where that behavior you got rid of flares back up. This is normal, the kid is testing you to see if you're serious. I encourage any parent to use this technique, I've seen it work many many times in my own professional and personal life.

How do you "ignore" someone hurting you via hitting, scratching (drawing blood), pinching, biting and kicking?

You'd be more likely to try to separate yourselves by locking you or the kid in a room. But why would you do that if there's a big risk of the particular kid hurting herself and/or majorly damaging something in the house, not to mention the emotional trauma of being locked somewhere against her will.

Also, I'm glad your strategy worked with your (younger) child and with some adults, but why would that experience lead you to be confident that the strategy works for all kids? Doesn't make sense to me.
post #36 of 49

I dont think a kid is going to hurt his/herself to the point of it actually being dangerous. And as an adult, I think you could "endure" the biting, hitting, scratching the few times it should take to completely ignore it and show the child there's no reaction.

post #37 of 49
Thread Starter 
Wow - interesting response. I appreciate you sharing your view/suggestion. However, you've obviously never met my DD or other kids like her if you think that intervention would be effective and not harmful. So while your advice doesn't resonate with me, I wanted to thank you for responding. smile.gif
post #38 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by pamplona View Post

Thanks, Scottishmommy - that was super helpful!! I agree that our best solution is also probably a combo of avoiding triggers when possible and the magical elixir of time. smile.gif
Yes, time really does work. As your DD ages
you may notice that she is deeply emotional. My DD1 at the age of 3 and a half, sobbed for hours because one day she'll grow up and not play with her toys anymore. She also had a complete breakdown over Madeleine getting her appendix out. When our elderly neighbor died she was devastated and would go kiss the sidewalk outside her house everyday. Most of her outbursts were from within if that makes any sense. They weren't really directed at us, although it felt that way. That's why ignoring, punishing, isolation etc never seemed to work, because she didn't even seem to notice what was happening around her. Now, I'm not suggesting you do nothing. You should absolutely prevent her from hurting you and herself. Being bitten can do some damage. While my dd never really hurt us (just hitting no biting) she did hurt herself. She once slammed her forehead on a concrete floor at a church play group that broke her skin. I was mortified. All the other parents were shocked as well. Luckily I have a younger DD who is the easiest most laid back toddler ever, so my parenting can't be blamed! Anyway, sorry for the rambling post! And I agree that ignoring "normal " tantrums works wonders.
post #39 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGucks View Post

I appreciate any advice anybody takes time to give, honestly I do. But I have to ask this poster whether she's ever been through this before. Prior to having the 3-year old I do, I might have given this same advice...but I can tell you, it is just not possible for most parents, regardless of temperament or gender (of both the adult and the child) to ignore this particular behavior over and over. Throwing a toy, ignore and have the child pick it up later...spitting on the floor, ditto. But ignoring repetitive whacking/hitting/biting? No can do. I am occasionally able to ignore and re-direct, but for me, it's just not always possible.

And, as much as I love my son, he has never been a gentle sweetie. He can be affectionate and wonderful, but you can't return to being something you never were to start with.
 
What a polite way to suggest I might be a crazy idiot!  :)  I totally understand what you're saying and yes, I have experience with an aggressive kid.  Well, formerly aggressive kid.  And I am absolutely empathetic to just fricking running out of patience.  We ended up in therapy. It took several thousand dollars out of pocket to muster up the gumption to ignore the aggression which extinguished it like dumping water on a campfire.  BUT, it got worse before it got better.  She was furious that we weren't engaging her tantrums.  We countered with conversations about great behavior when she wasn't being aggressive.  We role played.  We 'pretended' at tantrums, at aggression.  Our therapist had us set up scenarios like, "I bet you can't smile at me if I take away this toy" or "I bet you can't stay calm if I tell you it's naptime!"  It was a game and the practice became actual behavior.  And when she was aggressive or threw a fit, we literally just walked away.  No eye contact, no 'mom look', no words, just left... like it wasn't happening.  I would go to the sink and wash a dish so she couldn't see my face if she was hitting my leg or slamming a cupboard door.  Once, she shut her hand in her bedroom drawer while I was ignoring one of her fits.  Without words, I went to her when I heard the cry change, checked her hand without making eye contact, kissed her hand (it was fine) and went back to the kitchen.  We went from thirty to forty five minute fits and breakdowns to a calm, collected kid in a matter of weeks.  It was SO hard but what I was doing before - time outs, redirection, yelling, pinning her arms down, rewarding good behavior, taking things away - NONE OF IT was working.  I got to the point where I just had to trust someone else and do what she said blindly.  And it worked. 

I will say, your statement about how your son has never been a gentle sweetie really struck me.  Affectionate and wonderful sounds like a great goal and you know he's capable of that.  But he won't believe it unless you do.  It's the Pygmalion effect.  We had to change our language, change our own thoughts.  She's turning eight soon and our house has been predominantly peaceful and harmonious for years now. 

I guess the bottom line is there's NO shame in reaching out for professional help if you feel you need it.  Although what we've all experienced is *common* behavior, it isn't *healthy* behavior.  And in many cases, it will get worse.  It isn't too much to expect your home to be full of peace and love. 

Another caveat:  We also cut out all food dyes and work hard to balance protein and carbs.  The food dye elimination made a big difference with sleep and we all know how much easier it is to behave when you're well rested!
 
post #40 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by pamplona View Post


How do you "ignore" someone hurting you via hitting, scratching (drawing blood), pinching, biting and kicking?

You'd be more likely to try to separate yourselves by locking you or the kid in a room. But why would you do that if there's a big risk of the particular kid hurting herself and/or majorly damaging something in the house, not to mention the emotional trauma of being locked somewhere against her will.

Also, I'm glad your strategy worked with your (younger) child and with some adults, but why would that experience lead you to be confident that the strategy works for all kids? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

Pamplona, have you discussed her behavior with a physician?  Or a therapist?  You seem a little resistant to practical advice and my heart breaks for you that you're so exacerbated and exhausted.  I remember how defeated I felt and how I felt like everyone was looking to me to 'fix' our daughter.  If you truly believer her motivation is to inflict physical pain on you or herself then perhaps you need to seek some specialized help.  If she's simply gotten in a pattern where she's habitually using physical exertion to express herself, gritting your teeth and dealing with a pinch and a scratch while not giving her any currency WILL WORK QUICKLY.  Wear some heavy jeans and don't let her see your face.  It will end and it will end abruptly.  If it doesn't, then perhaps there are bigger issues at stake.  I can just about guarantee, even if you do identify and remove triggers like television or preservatives or casin/dairy or whatever, her behavior is now a habit and you will have to apply at least something cognitive to eradicate the behaviors you find undesirable. 
 

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