or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Baby › Baby Health › Vaccinations › I'm Not Vaccinating › Fear-mongering in South Wales
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Fear-mongering in South Wales

post #1 of 68
Thread Starter 
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/mmr-and-measles-in-south-wales-in-fear-of-the-unknown-we-risked-the-wellknown-8563295.html

"Common sense eventually triumphed over MMR jab scaremongering, but it took 15 years, hundreds of new measles cases and countless misinformed headlines"

What is obvious is that article itself is a prime example of the scaremongering. Hundreds of new measles cases?

Scroll down to the comment section and see that "common sense" read and posted the actual surveillance reports--which totaled fewer than 30 measles cases. Also mentioned is the fact that 93% of Swansea residents have already had both jabs.

"The autism issue has been fraught with difficulty, precisely because parents of autistic children are having a tough enough time without being dismissed as gullible fools by an impatient scientific community. But plenty of autism campaigners feel equally irate. Ari Ne’eman – the first person with an autism spectrum disorder to sit on the US National Council on Disability – points out that 'the idea of the poor, pitiful disabled person that we need to save… belongs on the ash heap of history.' "

Great. The author says that the great scientific community dismisses parents of autistic children as gullible fools--and manages to imply that they therefore must be gullible fools. One comes away from that paragraph with "parents of autistic children = gullible fools" etched in one's subconscious. Very clever--and well-known to trial attorneys--tactic.

In the same paragrapgh, Ari Ne'eman's quote "the idea of the poor, pitiful disabled person that we need to save… belongs on the ash heap of history," is unbelievably offensive to the tens of thousands of parents of severely disabled autistic children, children who are incontinent, non-verbal, severely brain-damaged, and yes, poor, disabled, pitiful, and needing saving. Shame on him for equating their situation with his.

Not once does the author even acknowledge that some children will have severe reactions to the MMR. Not once does she mention that, even according to Merck's own website, adult females receiving the MMR have a 25% chance of arthritis/arthralgia from the MMR. Not once does she mention that both US and Italian governments have, in the last several months, both admitted that MMR caused autism, and compensated the families.

At least, there is some wisdom in the comments.

"Anenome," who claims a doctorate in medical genetics, correctly point out that a child's chance of successfully recovering from measles is far greater than successfully recovering from MMR-induced epilepsy.

One has to wonder, when writers are so foolish as to accuse others of fear-mongering right smack in the middle of their own text-book example of fear-mongering ("Measles seemed to be nothing worse than a mild childhood illness from which everyone recovered in a week. Then, in 2006, a 13-year-old boy became the first person in Britain in more than a decade to die of the disease.")

At what point will everyone notice not only that the emperor's new clothes do not exist, but that he is buck-naked?
post #2 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/mmr-and-measles-in-south-wales-in-fear-of-the-unknown-we-risked-the-wellknown-8563295.html

"Common sense eventually triumphed over MMR jab scaremongering, but it took 15 years, hundreds of new measles cases and countless misinformed headlines"

What is obvious is that article itself is a prime example of the scaremongering. Hundreds of new measles cases?

Scroll down to the comment section and see that "common sense" read and posted the actual surveillance reports--which totaled fewer than 30 measles cases. Also mentioned is the fact that 93% of Swansea residents have already had both jabs.

"The autism issue has been fraught with difficulty, precisely because parents of autistic children are having a tough enough time without being dismissed as gullible fools by an impatient scientific community. But plenty of autism campaigners feel equally irate. Ari Ne’eman – the first person with an autism spectrum disorder to sit on the US National Council on Disability – points out that 'the idea of the poor, pitiful disabled person that we need to save… belongs on the ash heap of history.' "

Great. The author says that the great scientific community dismisses parents of autistic children as gullible fools--and manages to imply that they therefore must be gullible fools. One comes away from that paragraph with "parents of autistic children = gullible fools" etched in one's subconscious. Very clever--and well-known to trial attorneys--tactic.

In the same paragrapgh, Ari Ne'eman's quote "the idea of the poor, pitiful disabled person that we need to save… belongs on the ash heap of history," is unbelievably offensive to the tens of thousands of parents of severely disabled autistic children, children who are incontinent, non-verbal, severely brain-damaged, and yes, poor, disabled, pitiful, and needing saving. Shame on him for equating their situation with his.

Not once does the author even acknowledge that some children will have severe reactions to the MMR. Not once does she mention that, even according to Merck's own website, adult females receiving the MMR have a 25% chance of arthritis/arthralgia from the MMR. Not once does she mention that both US and Italian governments have, in the last several months, both admitted that MMR caused autism, and compensated the families.

At least, there is some wisdom in the comments.

"Anenome," who claims a doctorate in medical genetics, correctly point out that a child's chance of successfully recovering from measles is far greater than successfully recovering from MMR-induced epilepsy.

One has to wonder, when writers are so foolish as to accuse others of fear-mongering right smack in the middle of their own text-book example of fear-mongering ("Measles seemed to be nothing worse than a mild childhood illness from which everyone recovered in a week. Then, in 2006, a 13-year-old boy became the first person in Britain in more than a decade to die of the disease.")

At what point will everyone notice not only that the emperor's new clothes do not exist, but that he is buck-naked?

I don't think they will ever notice. The masses are usually putty in the hands of propagandists. God I've become so cynical greensad.gif

post #3 of 68

I decided to google the Swansea situation, and found this in the Guardian:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/11/mmr-vaccination-swansea-new-appeal

 

"Before the introduction of the MMR jab in 1988 about half a million children caught measles each year in the UK. Approximately 100 of those died."

 

Hold up a sec.  The CDC say 1/1000 -2/1000 die from measles, yet the Guardian is saying 100/ 500 000  which is 1/5000.  Which is it?  Before someone comes on and says the CDc is US and Guardian is British, let's point out that they are both wealthy countries with decent medical care.  


Edited by kathymuggle - 4/11/13 at 1:40pm
post #4 of 68

http://www.daynurseries.co.uk/news/article.cfm/id/1559684/nhs-is-praised-for-response-to-measles-outbreak

 

Babies as young as 6 months to get MMR vaccine if they live in high outbreak areas.  They will still need 2 more shots at the regular time.

 

http://www.daynurseries.co.uk/news/article.cfm/id/1559684/nhs-is-praised-for-response-to-measles-outbreak

post #5 of 68

Last one - looks like Offit has to get in on things!!!

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22089485

 

 

"Dr Paul Offit, a US-based measles expert, told the BBC that mandatory vaccinations in America had prevented similar outbreaks.

His comments came as measles cases in the Swansea area rose to 620.

The Welsh government said it believed the "hard won trust" in MMR would be damaged if vaccination was compulsory…."

Offit is quoted as saying:

"In this country<USA> we just don't think its your inalienable right to catch and transmit a potentially fatal infection and so we at least put that one hoop you have to jump through which is mandatory vaccination."

Start 

So…offfit is a measles expert now and likes to tell other countries what to do?  Eff off, Offit!  


Go Wales for not buying his "mandatory" message.


Edited by kathymuggle - 4/11/13 at 6:04pm
post #6 of 68
Thread Starter 

I read somewhere that even in Swansea, they had a 94% vaccination rate.  Which means that (as usual) the majority of the measles cases are in fully vaccinated individuals.  I wonder if anyone will ever bother to research what underlying conditions might be in the fully-vaxed population that still comes down with the diseases for which they are vaccinated--and whether those underlying conditions are actually caused by the vaccines...

post #7 of 68

doesn't seem like it's the big deal the media seems to want to make it- the masses doesn't seem to be to get vaccinated - I have family in another section and no one outside of this area seems that concerned

 

graph on this site too - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22098583 they do mention the vac won't work in those who are incubating but they are getting a milder outbreak

 

how many do you need for a "epidemic" to be a real epidemic,  here or there and does it really depend on the disease in question? I can't find a straight answer to that 

post #8 of 68
Any data on vaxxed v. non-vaxxed cases?

Measles outbreaks are like Christmas-time those who are hell-bent on taking our informed consent rights away. Why am I not surprised to see Offit gleefully scoring some cheap political points? eyesroll.gif

No worries, though. Offit's an American. So the UK should be fine.. We Americans never step in and tell other countries how they should govern their affairs. Sheepish.gif
post #9 of 68

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/children_shealth/9977550/Who-is-to-blame-for-Wales-measles-outbreak.html  this is interesting about their vaccine rates and I guess when you hit second grades (middle school) you just expel it from breathing winky.gif (as in all non vac have it in them to spread!!)  not like it sheds or anything - seems to strange none of the stories seem to mention that - there does seems to be a lot of newspapers that have found someone to blame in this outbreak-wow, what a surprise 

post #10 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Last one - looks like Offit has to get in on things!!!

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22089485

 

 

"Dr Paul Offit, a US-based measles expert, told the BBC that mandatory vaccinations in America had prevented similar outbreaks.

His comments came as measles cases in the Swansea area rose to 620.

The Welsh government said it believed the "hard won trust" in MMR would be damaged if vaccination was compulsory…."

Offit is quoted as saying:

"In this country<USA> we just don't think its your inalienable right to catch and transmit a potentially fatal infection and so we at least put that one hoop you have to jump through which is mandatory vaccination."

Start 

So…offfit is a measles expert now and likes to tell other countries what to do?  Eff off, Offit!  


Go Wales for not buying his "mandatory" message.

 

Yes! He is an autism expert too didn't you know? Although he has never treated any children with autism, he is to go to guy for all autism info!! He really is amazing??? How does he know so much about so many things?

post #11 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

I read somewhere that even in Swansea, they had a 94% vaccination rate.  Which means that (as usual) the majority of the measles cases are in fully vaccinated individuals.  I wonder if anyone will ever bother to research what underlying conditions might be in the fully-vaxed population that still comes down with the diseases for which they are vaccinated--and whether those underlying conditions are actually caused by the vaccines...

Do you remember where that stat came from Taxi? That would be useful to be able to link to. 

post #12 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

Do you remember where that stat came from Taxi? That would be useful to be able to link to. 

it is also in the link I posted - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/children_shealth/9977550/Who-is-to-blame-for-Wales-measles-outbreak.html

 

Yet the MMR scandal raged 10-15 years ago and, while UK immunisation rates fell from 92 per cent in 1995-6 to 80 per cent in 2003-4, by 2011-12, it was back to 91.2 per cent. In Wales, figures for October to December 2012 show a 94 per cent uptake. Shouldn’t we be back on course?

post #13 of 68

this might be on interest too - 2012 rates - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-20510525

post #14 of 68

I was reading the telegraph article Serenbat posted, and saw this:

 

"Dr Roland Salmon, consultant epidemiologist for Public Health Wales explains: ''America has run a very aggressive policy in the past 25 years, which has been replicated throughout the New World. And vaccination rates are high in many developing countries too. But Europe has been left behind: France had large outbreaks up to 2011, as did Italy and Spain.”

 

I wish they would stop lying.

 

Canada has 10 provinces - only 3 require any form of exemption, and all exemptions are easy to get (i.e philosophical)

A quick search showed neither Australia or NewZealand have school entry tied to vaccines (although Australia might have some sort of child bonus linked to vaccines - however Australians report it is easy to get a philosophical exemption, and still get the money. ) 

 

So, no, USA style vaccination policy has not been replicated thorughout the new world.

 

I wonder if Dr. Salmon is spouting such nonsense because he want mandatory vaccines (which some people would say the USA does not have, some say they do (including Offit)) and thinks it will be an easier sell if he tries to paint a picture that the rest of the world is doing it?


Edited by kathymuggle - 4/12/13 at 8:38am
post #15 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

 

 

I wonder Dr. Salmon is spouting such nonsense because he want mandatory vaccines (which some people would say the USA does not have, some say they do (including Offit)) and thinks it will be an easier sell if he tries to paint a picture that the rest of the world is doing it?

 

this was from the link I posted too - they better work on England to get their rates up!!

 

The HSCIC's NHS Immunisation Statistics, England , 2011-12 report shows coverage in England is still below that of other UK nations.

Scotland has the highest uptake of 94.3%, followed by Northern Ireland at 93.3% and then Wales at 92.7%. Overall the UK is at 91.6%.

In England, London had the lowest uptake at just 86.1%.

post #16 of 68

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-14249/Demand-soars-single-jab.html

 

The above discusses that many parents have wanted a single shot in the UK, but been unable to get it.  

 

I am willing to bet that the already high vaccine uptake would have been even higher had a single jab been available.  

 

Here is another story, it is from 2009 but it say 25 000 children a year in the UK get single jabs (i.e separate m m and r  vaccines were available)  I bet that when that became unavailable, some of those parents simply chose not to get the vaccine.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1150445/Thousands-children-left-unprotected-mumps-drug-firm-halts-single-jab-supply.html


Edited by kathymuggle - 4/12/13 at 12:40pm
post #17 of 68

So, it's because of Wakefield but...........  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-22132428

 

 

 

"While MMR vaccination uptake fell from February 1998, there was a reciprocal increase in the uptake of the single vaccines," he said.

 

"Six months later, in September 1998, the British government withdrew the importation licence for the single vaccines, effectively blocking this option for parents.

"Measles cases in the UK rose when the government withdrew the importation licence for the single measles vaccine leaving concerned parents with no choice. "

 
post #18 of 68

fear just suddenly became the issue, apparently there has been a number of cases for months in Wales -   http://www.wales.nhs.uk/sitesplus/888/page/66389

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22164296   

post #19 of 68

Have they tried quarantine? 

 

This was done during an outbreak in Switzerland though they seemed to do it much earlier, when the number infected was smaller.

 

Large measles outbreak in Geneva, Switzerland, January to August 2011: descriptive epidemiology and demonstration of quarantine effectiveness

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=20395
 

post #20 of 68

Where to start with Taximom.......... (quotes in italics)

 

"What is obvious is that article itself is a prime example of the scaremongering. Hundreds of new measles cases?


Scroll down to the comment section and see that "common sense" read and posted the actual surveillance reports--which totaled fewer than 30 measles cases."

 

 

I am afraid you misread the surveillance reports and should look at them again.

 

The reports that you posted show that, in the Swansea area only (and only looking at 2013), there were 39 new cases recorded in January, a further 66 new cases in February and 238 new cases in March.  That's three hundred and forty-three new cases this year (not including April).

 

In the same period last year, there were just thirteen cases.

 

I would suggested that you have another read of the document that you posted.  http://www2.nphs.wales.nhs.uk:8080/CommunitySurveillanceDocs.nsf/3dc04669c9e1eaa880257062003b246b/abefff808d75f76580257b41003cf988/$FILE/monthly%20notif%20201303.pdf

It's page 4.

 

 

 

"I read somewhere that even in Swansea, they had a 94% vaccination rate.  Which means that (as usual) the majority of the measles cases are in fully vaccinated individuals."

 

No, that is incorrect, and should be apparent to anyone.  I am unsure on the figure of 94% but will assume it to be correct.

 

To use approximate figures - Swansea's population is around 240,000.  There are around 800 reported cases of measles at present.

 

That means approximately 0.33% of people in Swansea have measles.

 

For all you or I know, those infected could easily all be part of the 6% of people in Swansea who are unvaccinated.

 

It is equally true that all those infected COULD be vaccinated, or that there is a split between vaccinated/unvaccinated - but there is currently no data.  On the statistics provided it is impossible to tell.  You are in fact making a very spurious assumption.

 

***note, I have realised that the figure of 240,000 actually only applies to the city of Swansea itself and not the wider area.  The population figure should actually be higher (and accordingly, the percentage of people infected by measles should be even lower.

 

 

 

I am not here to accuse anyone of being paranoid, or crackpots, or whatever else those in the anti-vacc movement are sometimes called.  Whilst there is still no scientific study showing a link between autism and vaccines, the fact that courts in at least two countries have made compensation awards shows that there is very compelling lay evidence (that is even enough to convince some scientists).  I'm of the opinion that there should further scientific studies on a much larger scale and would be unsurprised if a link is found.  

 

However, people like TaxiMom do not do the cause any good.  She has posted valid sources but completely misunderstood or misquoted them.  She also draws illogical conclusions for the sake of fitting her own agenda.  I consider this shameful on a message board about children's health (unless of course she is willing to admit her obvious errors, in which case she's just very sloppy).

 

It is also disappointing that not one other poster has pulled her up on these, very elementary, mistakes.


Edited by dybil3 - 4/23/13 at 11:34am
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: I'm Not Vaccinating
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Baby › Baby Health › Vaccinations › I'm Not Vaccinating › Fear-mongering in South Wales