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Fear-mongering in South Wales - Page 2

post #21 of 68

Dybil, I am not sure who you are as you are new.... but there is nothing wrong with Taxi post and I don't find it discrediting at all. This is the important thing she said (which I am sure you didn't mean to miss)

I wouldn't advise coming on a board of people you don't know, attacking a long time member and bordering on the offensive. If you are a non vaxer who also needs support then welcome.

 

In the same paragrapgh, Ari Ne'eman's quote "the idea of the poor, pitiful disabled person that we need to save… belongs on the ash heap of history," is unbelievably offensive to the tens of thousands of parents of severely disabled autistic children, children who are incontinent, non-verbal, severely brain-damaged, and yes, poor, disabled, pitiful, and needing saving. Shame on him for equating their situation with his.

Not once does the author even acknowledge that some children will have
(not maybe but they know WILL HAVE) severe reactions to the MMR. Not once does she mention that, even according to Merck's own website, adult females receiving the MMR have a 25% chance of arthritis/arthralgia from the MMR. Not once does she mention that both US and Italian governments have, in the last several months, both admitted that MMR caused autism, and compensated the families.I don't believe we know the REAL number of children who WILL HAVE a bad reaction to getting real measles. I have read the data and to many holes in their assumptions for my taste.

 

This is what was important for Taxi Mom to say.   I read that scaremongering report she posted. I can't find figures anywhere on it at all anymore or they have been removed. The reason it is a scaremongering report is because it acts as though the only true scare is if people don't vaccinate! angry.gif

 

Try these REAL reports....

 

This is JUST Notified accounts where there have been no lab tested confirmation..... this is important though

http://www2.nphs.wales.nhs.uk:8080/CommunitySurveillanceDocs.nsf/3dc04669c9e1eaa880257062003b246b/abefff808d75f76580257b41003cf988/$FILE/monthly%20notif%20201303.pdf

 

AND:here are the ACTUAL lab reported confirmed cases.

http://www2.nphs.wales.nhs.uk:8080/CommunitySurveillanceDocs.nsf/3dc04669c9e1eaa880257062003b246b/38c4ee86b5fd701e80257b41003cdc52/$FILE/monthly%20lab%20201303.pdf

 

These two show a very different picture and are important to realize the difference.Lab confirmed cases are only 8 for March in the entire country.

Even if the "notifiable" accounts are real,  302 cases for an entire country in one month just isn't scary to me. shrug.gif

Anyone else wonder why there aren't more lab confirmed cases?

post #22 of 68

Sunn5 - you say "Try these REAL reports" and then post the exact same report I posted!  Which is the exact same report TaxiMom posted.

 

You and I both agree that the first report shows there are over 300 new notified cases this year.  The Independent article says that there are "100's" of new cases - which you and I can both see is accurate.

 

However when TaxiMom first posted the same report, she wrongly said that the report shows there are only 30 cases and not hundreds (and so the Independent are scare-mongering).  She is wrong and I find it irresponsible to misrepresent the facts to fit your agenda.  My only question is whether TaxiMom did this deliberately or not - but it seems odd that she could misread a simple report.

 

Essentially, she has twice made up two 'facts' in this thread, one of which is very easily proved wrong (her claim that the report shows there are 'only 30' reported cases- that's just not true.)

 

Her other claim was that 'most of those who have been infected were fully vaccinated'.  She has assumed that to fit her agenda - there is no evidence either way at this stage.  If I posted saying 'all of those who have been infected were unvaccinated' I bet you would challenge me (and rightly so).

 

 

 

The second report that you posted (which was also posted by TaxiMom in the original post) you have correctly identified as showing the Lab-confirmed measles results.  You (rightly) question why there is such a disparity between the number of notified cases and the number of lab-confirmed cases.  

 

To answer your question; a GP does not normally need to take a blood or saliva test to identify measles - measles is usually easy to identify from its physical symptoms.  If there is uncertainty, only then will the GP arrange for a lab test but this is not usually required. 

 

 

 

I appreciate that you might not find 800 new cases of measles in one country in a 3 and a half month period to be scary.  However, the vast majority of cases are in one area and it happens to be the area that I am from.  It has also been confirmed that a 25 year old man (with asthma) who suddenly died had caught measles (measles is the suspected cause of death but this is not yet determined).

 

 

 

To quickly address your other points; I agree that the paragraph concerning Ari Ne'eman's quote is offensive.

 

And regarding the American and Italian courts; there is a very big difference between a court of law making a judgement and something being scientifically proven.  In my job I have seen many judges make a decision which goes against scientific evidence.

 

 

 

I think it's probably important that I explain my motivation for being on this forum.  I'm a soon-to-be parent in the Swansea area who is somewhat distrustful of the National Health Service (in fact, trying to show that they have been negligent is part of my job).  I have been aware of the findings of the courts in America and Italy and, accordingly, felt that I need to research vaccination for myself.  One of the places my research has taken me is to this forum.  I came into this particular thread because its obviously relevant to me.

 

Whilst it is my own, personal belief that there probably is a link between some vaccinations and autism (and believe a scientific link will one day be found) I have been very put off the current anti-vaccine 'movement'  by the amount of misinformation on this forum (and others).  TaxiMom has made up two facts in this thread that anyone should have been able to see were made up, but no-one in here challenged her on them - that leads me to believe that this forum is more concerned with its own agenda than the truth.  This does not sit well with me.

post #23 of 68

This is not a debate board. Open a thread in the discussion area, not here. Read the posting guidelines.

post #24 of 68
30. 300. A difference of one zero. Why would anyone assume deceit, and not typo, is beyond me!! I would think a simple correction is all that is required. The lengthy rants puzzle me! Twice, now, there have been accusations of deliberate misrepresentation. I suggest we let tempers cool, and post more neutrally from this point on.
post #25 of 68

nia 82 - My apologies - I must confess that I had not read the posting guidelines.

 

I still think it is important to show that the 'facts' presented in this thread were false or assumed, however I'd have presented it in a less antagonistic manner had I checked the guidelines.

 

Won't happen again.

post #26 of 68

Pek64 - if you read the original post you can see it could not have been just a simple typo.

 

 

Anyway, maybe I should take this as my cue to leave this thread.

post #27 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by dybil3 View Post

nia 82 - My apologies - I must confess that I had not read the posting guidelines.

 

I still think it is important to show that the 'facts' presented in this thread were false or assumed, however I'd have presented it in a less antagonistic manner had I checked the guidelines.

 

Won't happen again.

 

While I happen to agree with you, for better or worse, it is not permitted to correct facts in this section of the forum.  There is another section for discussion and debate. 

post #28 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by dybil3 View Post

 

Anyway, maybe I should take this as my cue to leave this thread.

Oh, no, you should stay.  

 

Leaving will just make it just look like you wanted to fly in, make a bunch of personal and passively aggressive pro-vax  statements, and then fly off.


Edited by kathymuggle - 4/24/13 at 1:55pm
post #29 of 68

To answer your question; a GP does not normally need to take a blood or saliva test to identify measles - measles is usually easy to identify from its physical symptoms.  If there is uncertainty, only then will the GP arrange for a lab test but this is not usually required.

 

Dybil, I do agree with you that you shouldn't HAVE to have lab confirmed as my entire family has had measles and I find it funny that many pro vax don't believe me as I didn't get it LAB confirmed (just my old GP in 70's who KNOWS what they look like, act like etc) and staunchly tell me that those are the only ones that should count.

 

I actually find that misinformation is one reason many become non vax... if she only wants to count lab confirmed cases, it is in her right however and not misinformation. All though the stats aren't out yet on non-vax to vax population who is contracting it.... it is just logical to assume with such a high Vax rate in the area that there will be a high percentage. I realized that it isn't proven yet.... but don't think of it as deliberate misinformation.

 

Mis information does make me upset though.... I find more of it on the other side, but know that it can/does happen on both sides. I try to not throw the baby out with the bath water though. What I am NOT sure of with regards to Vax is one reason I don't!

 

If an American court in the Vax world actually compensates for injury.... they are set up to "prove" that it was Vaccines that caused the illness outside of normal parameters a miracle. These courts are outside of normal judges(they aren't even called that), have totally different sets of rules, have to have STRONG evidence towards what happened so since they compensated-it means more to me. If you are in the UK, then you might not know how the system is set up.

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html   If you do great, it is all about how we put weight on what we see.

 

S

ds-13

dd-8

dd-2

post #30 of 68

If there is incorrect information, to correct it is quite welcome; however it has to be in a polite and courteous manner. Accusations and claiming mal-intent is just not okay at all. I'm curious as to your accusation that the INV forum is full of misinformation? The parents that post here are quite well read and I'm not sure what you are pointing at. A civil discussion without rudeness is appreciated.

 

As for counting the cases I agree one doesn't need lab confirmation. My parents know they had measles without being lab confirmed. The symptoms are quite classic I'd say. I personally choose to vaccinate for measles, but not with the MMR. I do have access to a single jab in Europe.

post #31 of 68
Thread Starter 

I'm so glad to see other people weighing in here! I've actually been afraid to post again, because to my eyes, it really looks like I am being both attacked and baited--and I've learned the hard way not to take the bait. If there is any misinformation in my posts, I am certainly glad to take another look at all the facts (or at least, all the ones we have access to, which really isn't all).

 

I agree that it is a difficult issue, whether or not to count reports of measles that are not lab-confirmed. There are valid arguments on both sides. As pointed out, older, more experienced doctors are much more likely to recognize and therefore correctly diagnose measles without needing lab tests. Obviously, however, the doctors who saw poor Gareth Colfer-Williams didn't diagnose him correctly until it was too late, according to his mother.

 

And on the other hand, there is certainly a track record of doctors misdiagnosing diseases without lab confirmation because they're told those diseases are going around. Certainly in the US, this has happened to a ridiculous extreme with influenza, where we were told that 36,000 people a year die from influenza when all available studies indicate that it's highly unlikely so many of that number even HAD influenza (rather, according to the experts at the Cochrane Review, they likely had one of many common viruses with symptoms similar to influenza).

 

So, no matter how you look at it, we don't really have accurate numbers.  Period.

 

I was wondering where "800 reported cases of measles" supposedly in Swansea came from?  I have not seen any data to that effect, and no source was cited.

 

Anyway, I want to thank those of you who made an effort to add to the discussion, for keeping things calm, rational, and civil.

 

And I'm wondering where the mods are????

post #32 of 68
Going to have to be brief (by my standards) for the moment because I am on my morning commute.

TaxiMom - I suspect that I owe you an apology for suggesting your mistakes might be deliberate, but could you please explain where you get the idea that the surveillance report you posted shows that there are "less than 30" new cases?

If you are referring to the lab-confirmed cases (which would be disingenuous) then "less than 30" seems and odd way to say "8"!

And could you explain your assertion later on the first page where you say that most of those infected in Swansea have been vaccinated? Where are you getting this information?

I would stop pushing this if the OP was corrected. I also appreciate that I have been warned off debating so I hope this post will be taken in a constructive manner. If not, then get it deleted (or if you cannot delete, let me know and I'll edit it to a blank post as soon as I can)

The '800' figure I have quoted relates to the whole of Wales and includes figures for the weekly surveillance reports for April. I cant post the link from my phone but they are available on the nhs website, probably in the same section of the site that your reports are from.
post #33 of 68

To me, the numbers aren't important, even if 800 people have measles have any of them actually died? Is it so bad to get measles? I understand there can be complications but how common are these complications and how much do these complications depend on pre-existing conditions?

I think my problem with the MMR is that I don't understand why they need to have it.
 

post #34 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by dybil3 View Post

Where to start with Taximom.......... (quotes in italics)

 

...

 

I am not here to accuse anyone of being paranoid, or crackpots, or whatever else those in the anti-vacc movement are sometimes called.  Whilst there is still no scientific study showing a link between autism and vaccines, the fact that courts in at least two countries have made compensation awards shows that there is very compelling lay evidence (that is even enough to convince some scientists).  I'm of the opinion that there should further scientific studies on a much larger scale and would be unsurprised if a link is found.  

 

However, people like TaxiMom do not do the cause any good.  She has posted valid sources but completely misunderstood or misquoted them.  She also draws illogical conclusions for the sake of fitting her own agenda.  I consider this shameful on a message board about children's health (unless of course she is willing to admit her obvious errors, in which case she's just very sloppy).

 

It is also disappointing that not one other poster has pulled her up on these, very elementary, mistakes.

 

Where to start with dybil ... smile.gif

 

I'm not here to accuse any pro-vaxer to be hyper-presumptuous, with absolute lack of imagination, rife with black-n-white thinking, and absolutely - nothing - insightful nor useful to contribute to any discusssion on vaxes.  At the same time, I do believe there are pro-vaxers out there with whom interesting debate/discussions are possible, there must be ... perhaps they're just rare, or rather "vanishingly rare" ... smile.gif

 

Anyway, posts like yours do not do - your - cause any good either.  Jumping into conclusion before asking for any clarification, passive-agressively condescending, insinuating that anyone questioning vaxes are crackpots who must be morons because you assume they make "sloppy elementary mistakes".  And to suggest that anyone tolerating those must be imbeciles too.  Well, that's just one possible interpretation, I'm sure there are others ... smile.gif

 

Yawn, yawn, yawn! Why does this sound ... oh-so-familiar?.  Oh, yeah, because, it happens ...  almost every single time... in some variation or other - in almost every post where there is a "debate/discussion" going on - yeah, but this is just one person's opinion.  smile.gif

 

But, anyway, welcome to MDC wink1.gif


Edited by MamaMunchkin - 4/25/13 at 3:22am
post #35 of 68
Thread Starter 
Dybil3, we are not permitted to debate in this forum, so I cannot respond to your accusations, presumptions, insinuations, etc., here without violating MDC policy.

My suggestion would be for you to delete all your posts on this thread and start your own thread in the "Discussion and Debate" forum.
post #36 of 68

so no real numbers still - a least they admit the numbers are not all real

 

http://www.wales.nhs.uk/sitesplus/888/page/66389

 

 

The data given on this page are of notifications of measles reported to Public Health Wales by doctors who have diagnosed a patient with having measles from clinical symptoms. Usually, a notification of measles is laboratory confirmed (or not) by sending a sample for virological testing. However, due to the high numbers of notifications reported during an outbreak, it is possible that not all clinically-diagnosed cases will undergo subsequent laboratory testing. It is probable that not all cases notified on the basis of clinical symptoms will be due to measles infection and this maybe true especially for notifications from outside the outbreak area.

 

 

 

 

for those who don't know this info - http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/vaccine-programoffice-special-masters

http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/court_info/20120702_rules/12.07.02%20FINAL%20VERSION%20OF%20VACCINE%20RULES.pdf

http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/OSM.Guidelines.pdf

 

interesting this is being brought right now on here and surprise-surprise also on another site that is asking their readers to say the vaccine court system is not real and not to believe the judgments ($$$) given out

post #37 of 68
TaxiMom - my last post was not me presenting an argument, it was me asking where you got your data from. I think that's a fair question to ask.
post #38 of 68
Sunflower - yes it appears there has been a death (in someone who suffered athsma. The gentleman involved lived 10 minutes away from me (though I did not know him) which probably explains my sensitivity in this particular thread.

MamaMunchkin - I believe there is still a case to answer on mmr and autism, particularly in light of the USA and Italy court cases. Accordingly, I do not believe anti vaxers to be crackpots - the nature of my complaint is that;
1. Inaccurate information appears to have been presented as fact
2. People who are very quick to scrutinize information from various sources do not seem to scrutinize information if it is in fitting with their own personal beliefs.

On matters relevant to children's health, it is important that information is accurate and I believe there is a duty on the parent to, so for as possible, check that it is accurate. In this instance that was a simple thing to do.
post #39 of 68
Thread Starter 

from dybil3's original post (I have the entire original (unedited)  post in my email notification:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dybil3 View Post

Where to start with Taximom.......... (quotes in italics)

 

 

 

As for the reason I am on here today; I knew the gentleman whom it appears has died from the measles in Swansea this week and so I have been reading around.  (This is not an appeal for sympathy - I did not know him well)...

 

 

In contrast, dybil3's post from today:

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dybil3 View Post

Sunflower - yes it appears there has been a death (in someone who suffered athsma. The gentleman involved lived 10 minutes away from me (though I did not know him) which probably explains my sensitivity in this particular thread.

 
post #40 of 68

Taxi - good find!

 

I just took a look at the post in question and that line does seem edited out.

 

dybil….if you intend to hang around on MDC, I suggest you delete your posts and consider apologising to Taxi and everyone one else.  Jumping to such things as  (list to follow in next post) is offensive and inappropriate.

 

You may find your style of posting better suited to discussion and debate at this point in time.

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