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There are ZERO risks for Not Vaccinating - Page 5

post #81 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie8681 View Post

 

 

As WildKingdom says, it seems there is a real resistance here to the idea that sometimes, shit just happens.

 

I actually found WildKingdom's post one of the most disturbing, angry and frankly clueless posts I have read on this forum in a long while. To say shit just happens takes away all personal power and sovereignty over one's body and heath, and leaves us purely as victims. We are not victims. We all have the power to make choices in all aspects of our lives, and health being one of them. Yes, things sometimes appear to go wrong, but the current medical paradigm of blaming "bad genes" or "bad luck" plays right into big pharma's hands, "Don't worry, its not your fault, it was the bum hand your were drawn, but don't worry, we have a medication that will help you, it won't cure you though, but its all you have got, so don't go looking elsewhere for help, there is none." We are expected to accept our fate, take what they offer and not question.

 

Mother Nature is not a moron, she knows what she is doing and does it for a reason. For example, fever and rashes in "infectious" disease, are not "bad" things, they are the mechanisms that an intelligent body utilizes to heal itself, suppress them with pharmaceuticals and override the natural processes of the organism and shit happens. A malnourished, or compromised (by toxins, or a malfunctioning immune system for example) body will not necessarily have the ability, inner strength and resources to allow the organism to heal, and when a crisis hits, shit happens. It's not the healing process that is the cause, it is the inherent condition of the body which is not allowing the healing to proceed as it should. Take cancer, one in four people will be diagnosed with this disease sometime in their lives and this figure, despite the billions of dollars thrown at finding the cure, is still on the rise. The understanding and treatment of Cancer has been an epic fail. We still have no clue what Cancer is and why it occurs. However, scientists at the University of Arizona might know the answer to this question, and have stated, "Cancer is not a random bunch of selfish rogue cells behaving badly, but a highly-efficient pre-programmed response to stress, honed by a long period of evolution." I won't go into this in great detail, because it is way OT, but for those interested in the work, you can click here. Basically, Cancer can no longer be seen as something bad that happens to an intrinsically healthy body (shit happens), but rather it is something the body (innate wisdom) actively does in response to an intrinsically unhealthy cellular environment. It is an expression not of deviance, but of the body's intelligence and survival. Their work provides insight into how the disease process has inherent logic and the body's healing impulse to return to balance and survival. Interfere with that and shit may well happen. Cancer is a symptom, not a disease. In my life, I have known two people with bone Cancer, a childhood friend and my DH. My childhood friend was treated with everything western medicine had to offer, including limb amputation: he died. My DH had no treatment and completely healed from the Cancer seven years ago.

 

We do have power over how our body responds to challenges, we can choose to nurture the body to allow it to function optimally when challenged with nutritious food, clean water, exercise, sunlight, and where possible avoidance of environmental chemical toxins. I would also say, where possible, avoidance of western, slash, burn and cut, medicine (not saying there is no good in all western medicine - trauma care for example). By understanding the true nature of disease and how the body responds, rather than just throwing up your hands and saying this was just bad luck, shit happens, it empowers you to take responsibility for your own health and healing and to choose the right course of action for yourself and your children.

 

As for vaccines, if you choose to vaccinate your child or yourself, then yeah, shit can happen.

post #82 of 103
The problem with taking the view Mother Nature knows what she's doing is that Mother Nature does not care about the survival of an individual, only of a species (if that even to be honest).

And also their are just random bad things which happen.

Are you seriously suggesting if people we more relaxed, ate better and avoided medicine they wouldn't die of cancer? Your friend aside, the statistics will show that people who are treated for cancer survive more often than those who don't get treated.
post #83 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
Are you seriously suggesting if people we more relaxed, ate better and avoided medicine they wouldn't die of cancer? Your friend aside, the statistics will show that people who are treated for cancer survive more often than those who don't get treated.

are you serious as well? survival of cancer depends on type and what you simple mean by survival, to some DR and medical community that can mean as little as 5 years - it simply is not a blanket statement that holds true for all types of cancers - prostate cancer is a prime example of non-treatment vs treatment

post #84 of 103
Of course different cancers have different survival rates. Doesn't invalidate my statement.
post #85 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

The problem with taking the view Mother Nature knows what she's doing is that Mother Nature does not care about the survival of an individual, only of a species (if that even to be honest).

And also their are just random bad things which happen.

Are you seriously suggesting if people we more relaxed, ate better and avoided medicine they wouldn't die of cancer? Your friend aside, the statistics will show that people who are treated for cancer survive more often than those who don't get treated.

 

No, I am saying nothing of the sort. That is purely your chosen interpretation of my post. The object of your post seems to be to derail the thread, and I am not taking the bait. Waste of my time.

post #86 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

No, I am saying nothing of the sort. That is purely your chosen interpretation of my post. The object of your post seems to be to derail the thread, and I am not taking the bait. Waste of my time.

I interpret your post wrong, and you interpret mine wrong. About par for the course on the vaccine boards I think.
post #87 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie8681 View Post

 

 

As WildKingdom says, it seems there is a real resistance here to the idea that sometimes, shit just happens.

Funny you should say this.

 

That's the typical response from the medical community to an awful lot of health problems that might actually have an identifiable cause: "shit happens."

 

You get intestinal symptoms and rashes after eating wheat?  No, it couldn't possibly be the gluten!  It's "IBS," aka "Inflammatory Bowel Syndrome," which has all the same symptoms of celiac disease, but um, we don't bother to test for celiac disease because it's vanishingly rare, you couldn't have that.  You know, shit happens. Here, eat all the gluten you want; just take these medicines for the rest of your life.  

 

You have dizziness, fluctuating hearing loss, tingling fingers and toes?  No, we won't test for B12 deficiency.  Nobody has that. You must have "Meniere's Disease," which isn't a disease at all, it's a syndrome, a collection of symptoms of unknown origin. And those symptoms include dizziness and fluctuating hearing loss. We'll give you steroids, and a truckload of other meds, including cortisone shots to the ear, which might result in permanent hearing loss. This is a lifelong condition (if you don't find and address the underlying cause), but, you know, shit happens.

 

Your child had a seizure reaction to a vaccine?  Nah, vaccines don't do that.  Oh, wait, all your kids have had varying severe reactions to vaccines?  And we can't tell which vaccines, becuase they were given so many at a time?  Oh, and you've had reactions yourself?  You were probably just imagining that it happened within a few hours of being given vaccines.  Oh, you called our office each and every time there was a reaction, within a few hours of the vaccinations, and we told you not to worry?  Oh well, shit happens.

 

You are tired all the time, your hair is falling out, you're constipated, you're cold all the time, you have no appetite, but you keep gaining weight?  No, we wouldn't THINK of testing your thyroid function!  You're at "that age" (I was still in my 20's) where you have to watch what you eat, you know?  What? You say you are following a rigid diet?  No, you must be lying.  It's not possible to gain weight on  a rigid diet.  You must be lying. Women are always looking for excuses for being fat, but you know what? Shit happens!

 

But according to Katie and WildKingdom, shit happens.  There is never any kind of underlying cause, group of causes, or even triggers.  It just happens.  They would like you to accept it. If you happen to find out that there actually are causes and triggers, don't tell them; they don't want to know about it, particularly if those causes have anything to do with what they or their child has been eating, drinking, or been injected with.  Because "shit happens." 

post #88 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Perhaps something we can all agree on - neither side is as black and white in their thinking as the "other side" seems to think.

Could we throw in there's not really sides, more a continuum of opinions too?

Back to the OP - why we're here debating it?

I'm OK with not generalizing about entire groups, but it's important for the advancement of these discussions to call out individual black-and-white arguments where we see them. Here are some examples of b & w arguments, perceptions, implications, and issue-framing that I've encountered OVER THE YEARS (read: I'm not providing links; you'll have to take my word for it) at least once in these forums:

1. "There are ZERO risks for not vaccinating."
2. Either diseases happens because shit happens OR it's completely a matter of personal choices.
3. Either you're pro-vax OR you're anti-vax.
4. Either you're pro-science and pro-vax OR you're anti-science and anti-vax.
5. Either vaccines are good and wonderful and perfect OR they're vile toxins.
6. Either you vax with everything and "on-schedule" OR you're "anti-vax."
7. "Vaccines are a black and white issue."
8. Either "natural" is good OR "natural" is bad.
9. Either you trust or doctor and obey OR you believe that all doctors are evil.
10.This study confirms my bias, so I'm going to defend it fully even though I haven't read anything beyond the abstract or a press release about it.

It's almost sad how quickly I came up with all of those . . .
Edited by Turquesa - 5/14/13 at 1:28pm
post #89 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

 

But according to Katie and WildKingdom, shit happens.  There is never any kind of underlying cause, group of causes, or even triggers.  It just happens.  They would like you to accept it. If you happen to find out that there actually are causes and triggers, don't tell them; they don't want to know about it, particularly if those causes have anything to do with what they or their child has been eating, drinking, or been injected with.  Because "shit happens." 

It's more that SOMETIMES shit happens. You can do everything "right" and still get nailed out of the sky by some bizarre disease. Sure, lots of things do have causes, but sometimes someone gets sick for a reason that really isn't discernible, and the rhetoric that every disease we get is something we brought on ourselves is not very respectful of people in this situation. 

post #90 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

The problem with taking the view Mother Nature knows what she's doing is that Mother Nature does not care about the survival of an individual, only of a species (if that even to be honest).

And also their are just random bad things which happen.

Are you seriously suggesting if people we more relaxed, ate better and avoided medicine they wouldn't die of cancer? Your friend aside, the statistics will show that people who are treated for cancer survive more often than those who don't get treated.

The statistics of cancer patients is off topic. We would need information about those statistics before that point can be argued intelligently.
post #91 of 103
Over diagnosis & Overtreatment of Breast & Prostate Cancers is a growing phenomenon.

You know what tho: Absolutely no one said that every disease we get is brought on by ourselves. What *I* said was that the 'immunity of the Herd' is influenced by a thousand more factors than Vax choices. Some couldn't accept that & instead made up an argument I didn't advance & then argued with their made up argument.

I certainly don't believe in Victim Blaming. I believe in holding Corporations accountable for the illness they cause through pollution, engineered frankenfood, tobacco promotion, etc.
post #92 of 103
I actually believe it is profoundly dehumanizing in the literal sense to refer to HUMANS as being part of a 'HERD' anyway. I am part of a community in which I have the freedom to make my good faith contribution and I pray that our Creator continues to protect that FREEDOM, rather than allowing a Corporation or Government to choose my contribution.

I am of the mind that a percentage of parents always need to opt out of Vaxes to establish a default control group. Otherwise, as the schedule expands exponentially, we will have no reference point for what a child without say, bimonthly injections of Aluminum is like. No control group, no placebo, no science.

Finally, most improvements in Vax Safety have been the result of Parent Advocacy, so Vaxing parents have Vax Safety parents to thank for IPV & DTaP & Thimerisol free Childhood shots!
post #93 of 103
Double.
post #94 of 103
Triple.
post #95 of 103
Thread Starter 
Jenner came up with a fantasy theory that milk maids were resistant to smallpox because they were exposed to cowpox through nature in their environment. Cowpox and smallpox are 2 different separate diseases.

Note that the milk maids were not piercing their own skin to vaccinate themselves with cow pus (the vaccines were made out of cow pus). Also note that raw milk is a super food (immune boosting with natural probiotics) and these milk maids had easy access to this immune boosting superfood. Maybe raw milk is a significant reason why milk maids had strong immune systems thus resisted disease. We know the milk maids didn't vaccinate.

Also note that the results of smallpox deaths after the vaccination was introduced is well documented in England where the deaths grow more and more every year as stricter compulsory vaccine laws are reinforced year after year; in Prussia where they had the most strict vaccine laws, also death grew more and more; and also the Phillipines-- very simillar story. The vaccine never worked.

That brings us back to the topic of the germ not being the cause of disease since some people's immune systems are able to fight off disease. Keep in mind that Jenner's whole theory was based on milk maids who most likely regularly drank an immune boosting superfood and these milk maids never ever vaccinated themselves.
post #96 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinahx View Post

I actually believe it is profoundly dehumanizing in the literal sense to refer to HUMANS as being part of a 'HERD' anyway. I am part of a community in which I have the freedom to make my good faith contribution and I pray that our Creator continues to protect that FREEDOM, rather than allowing a Corporation or Government to choose my contribution.

I am of the mind that a percentage of parents always need to opt out of Vaxes to establish a default control group. Otherwise, as the schedule expands exponentially, we will have no reference point for what a child without say, bimonthly injections of Aluminum is like. No control group, no placebo, no science.

Finally, most improvements in Vax Safety have been the result of Parent Advocacy, so Vaxing parents have Vax Safety parents to thank for IPV & DTaP & Thimerisol free Childhood shots!

not all have thimerosol removed

post #97 of 103

double post

post #98 of 103
post #99 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post

not all have thimerosol removed

 

So what? Thimerosol is harmless.

post #100 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyLilPwny View Post

Jenner came up with a fantasy theory that milk maids were resistant to smallpox because they were exposed to cowpox through nature in their environment. Cowpox and smallpox are 2 different separate diseases.

Note that the milk maids were not piercing their own skin to vaccinate themselves with cow pus (the vaccines were made out of cow pus). Also note that raw milk is a super food (immune boosting with natural probiotics) and these milk maids had easy access to this immune boosting superfood. Maybe raw milk is a significant reason why milk maids had strong immune systems thus resisted disease. We know the milk maids didn't vaccinate.

Also note that the results of smallpox deaths after the vaccination was introduced is well documented in England where the deaths grow more and more every year as stricter compulsory vaccine laws are reinforced year after year; in Prussia where they had the most strict vaccine laws, also death grew more and more; and also the Phillipines-- very simillar story. The vaccine never worked.

That brings us back to the topic of the germ not being the cause of disease since some people's immune systems are able to fight off disease. Keep in mind that Jenner's whole theory was based on milk maids who most likely regularly drank an immune boosting superfood and these milk maids never ever vaccinated themselves.

 

So, that whole smallpox eradication thing? Not convincing to you? I suppose you'll say it was sanitation.

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