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I just got a call from my day care provider - Page 3

post #41 of 75
Thread Starter 

I'll read the rest of the replies later, but I just want to say that Night 2 went much better than Night 1. Because it was a nice day out, he went out to play instead of watching videos after supper. He was reluctant to come in at 7:30 and start the bedtime routine, but we got through it and were in his bedroom just after 8:30 again. No nightlight because there was still light coming in the window around the blinds. (I have been asking DH to install curtains--which we have--since DS was born, but they are still not up. Maybe it can be a weekend project.)


He nursed until he was almost asleep and at 9:00 I did the PPO. He wasn't quite asleep and he wrapped himself around me while I put him into his own bed and told him it was time to go to sleep. He asked me to rub his back (which, I understand, is what they used to do at day care to get him to sleep during naps. He told me months ago that they had stopped rubbing his back at nap time but when I asked why, he said he didn't want them to do it anymore, so I didn't pursue it.) so I rubbed his back and he was asleep within 10 minutes. 


He still climbed into bed with me during the night (I can't say when) and woke at 6:20 to nurse until 6:50, when we got up for the day. I skipped my shower at 6:30.

post #42 of 75

I doubt it is a long term solution or one that you could do every day but my daughter has a hard time going to sleep too and on the days I take her swimming in the late afternoon she crashes in the car before we even get home. Is it maybe just that he needs more intense exercise during the day? I except the swimming which totally wipes us both out... how about something earlier in the day? Is there some sort of class he can take? Is he watching any tv even earlier in the day? maybe that needs to be cut out?

post #43 of 75

I skimmed the posts and have a few thoughts to add...


First, I think a "whole child" type childcare can certainly be invested in whether the child is getting enough sleep. I don't care for their suggestions either but I think showing concern for whether your son is getting enough sleep is a very good sign! 


And, I do think he's probably not getting enough sleep.  Do a search for sleep needs at his age. I imagine it's at least 12 hours still. 


Interesting article: http://www.parentingscience.com/sleep-requirements.html


One thing I suggest is for this first week or two of your new sleep routine, is that you "mill around" him as he's trying to sleep. Be "potentially available".  Laundry, tidying, using the bathroom and etc...whatever household things you can do while he tries to fall asleep.  This worked well for my toddler when we wanted her to start falling asleep on her own. 

post #44 of 75
Originally Posted by NSmomtobe View Post

I'll read the rest of the replies later, but I just want to say that Night 2 went much better than Night 1. Because it was a nice day out, he went out to play instead of watching videos after supper. He was reluctant to come in at 7:30 and start the bedtime routine, but we got through it and were in his bedroom just after 8:30 again. 


First, yay, and congrats!! 


Second, I think I would cut after dinner videos all together. It think it may be really stimulating and difficult to move away from.   


Also, I think I may try for a REALLY early bed time.  The link I gave said that the average number of hours for a 3 year old is 13.5. If you get up at 7 for school/work, I think you should try for a 6pm routine.  I know that sounds crazy but I've heard a lot of success stories from families with really early bed times and I've tried that from time to time when I think we're not getting enough sleep and it's worked very well. 

post #45 of 75

I have not read every comment so my info may be a repeat. Some children have issues sleeping bc they do not need sleep, yes even at 3, or they have food intolerances or sensory issues. I would get a new daycare provider asap, this is 20 yrs of daycare and teaching experience talking, and also remember that everyone has their own rhythm. It can be tough to work outside the home and deal with a night owl, but sometimes that is the hand we are dealt. My sensory children enjoy noise machines, bedsharing, nursing to bed until they self wean, weaned themselves off naps when ready, love to be busy and out climbing or running, plus we try to be flexible.I know this is all easier said than done. I wish you good luck and I hope you find some of the info here helpful.

post #46 of 75
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

One of us must be missing the point. I thought the OP found out that he wasn't napping at all anymore when she asked them to send him with the other non-nappers upstairs at naptime.

I agree that the bedtime routine is none of their business, though. They/she just used the nap request as an excuse to criticize, in my opinion.

Actually Pek, MichelleZB was right. From the OP:

"He had previously been described as "one of their best nappers" when he was sleeping 2 hours at a time, and we asked them to wake him after an hour"

Is it possible that waking him after just an hour is what's causing his behavior issues? Maybe he still needs the 2 hours of naptime.
post #47 of 75
Originally Posted by NSmomtobe View Post

My son is 3. He has never been a good sleeper. I will be honest with you here. We have tried to get him into a bedtime routine since he was a baby, but he has never gotten the sleeping aspect of the routine. Whether we put him to bed at 6 or 7 or 8 or 9, he does not fall asleep until about 10:00, and if he is in his bed during that time, he cries the whole time. DH or I stay with him until he falls asleep. However, we decided long ago that we did not want to spend all evening holding a crying baby/toddler/preschooler, so now we get him ready for bed by 8, I try to nurse him to sleep, and then we try to ignore him/let him play quietly until we are ready to go to bed at 10. Often I will use the computer and he will curl up on my lap around 9:30 and nurse himself to sleep. He and I share a room, which has a toddler bed next to a single (twin-sized) bed. We place him in the toddler bed after he has gone to sleep. When he wakes up, around midnight, he climbs into bed with me. He is nightweaned, so he doesn't nurse again until 6am.


Lately he has stopped nursing to sleep by 10. This means that when DH and I go to bed at 10, DS is still up. On these nights, I get ready for bed and then we get into my bed together and he nurses there, but often still doesn't fall asleep. He wants to get up and play. He wants to eat. I tell him, "No, it is not time to eat/play. It is bedtime." Sometimes he wants to see Daddy (who is in bed across the hall--we do not sleep together) and sometimes Daddy comes in and takes him away so that I can sleep. Sometimes (rarely) he will get into bed with Daddy and eventually fall asleep, but usually he cries for me once he gets to Daddy and I have to decide whether to let DH handle it or go relieve him after a while. At this point, he will usually nurse to sleep. So lately he has not been getting to sleep until 10:30-11. There is clearly a problem with our sleep situation. It is not working.


Anyway, DH had the brilliant idea today of asking our day care provider not to let DS nap during the day, in hopes that it would make him go to sleep earlier at night. This led to the day care director calling me at work to discuss what we should be doing to help DS sleep better at night. She said that he has been disruptive during quiet time at day care--he doesn't even nap there always, and he tends to keep others up--and he has become disobedient in general. She said it was clearly a control issue for him and we need to fix it now before he is 13 and out of control. 


She recommends a chart to document his bedtime routine, with stickers if he behaves/stays in bed. She says he should be in bed by 7:30 every night and we should say good night and walk away and not go back in until at least 20 minutes have passed. I said that there is not a chance that he would stay in bed, and she said to make sure the room is safe/there is nothing dangerous he can get into and then lock the door from the outside. After 20 minutes, check on him--put him back in bed, if necessary--but don't say a word to him and then leave for another 20 minutes. She recommended that I read "Solving Your Child's Sleep Problems" and told me about a local group I could call for advice, which she said was "like Nanny 911." She said I would see results within 2 weeks, but then it would get worse again before getting better and said, laughing, that some parents buy ear plugs during this time.


I don't know what to do. I agree that there is a problem. I agree with some of what she said: "Children need boundaries," and "Routine is important" (I agree with this in principle, but it has never seemed to work for our family). But I feel like her suggestions are overall not very respectful. Furthermore, most of it would never work for out family because of how we are currently set up. But I didn't know before today that he was having behaviour problems at day care due to our inability to reinforce boundaries at home. I know now that I need to do something, but what?

I just wanted to offer some ideas because we have had difficult to bed town children, and in fact 10 pm is still a 'normal' bed time here. The youngers also don't get up until 9am though - kids need their sleep.

I would try some melatonin 500mcg.

This is the routine I did:

Snack (toast and chamomile tea works great)


Quiet hour (a childs book on tape, or Indigo's meditations for kids is great for them)

and melatonin. (Fredmeyers sells a peppermint flavored one that all of my kids adore)

Child tucked in about 30 minutes later...read a story, nurse, etc.


Each night set the routine 10 minutes earlier until it is where you want it. Eventually halve the melatonin and see if it helps still.


The only time there was ever tears during a bed time routine was when the children were jumping on the bed and refusing to lie down. We remedied it with a baby gate and me leaving the room.They were 18-32 months old. After the fourth night when I said it was time to lie down and read a story together, they did it.

post #48 of 75
I think you should talk to his doctor, rule out any physical problems that could be causing his inability to fall asleep. A chiropractor, one that practices Nutrition Response Testing (finds nutritional defiencies that cause problems in the body) will be a great help to you. If his parasympathic (breaks of the body) nervous system is out of balance, it makes nearly impossible to fall asleep. Acupuncture may be a great help to you.
For my DD, putting her to bed later, 11pm, gives her the best sleep. Maybe a later bed time is what your son needs. Sure it would be nice if she went to bed earlier but that's not what works for her. Quality sleep is better than the time she goes down.
post #49 of 75
I'm a late comer to the thread but I want to suggest cutting out the videos. The fast images are very overstimulating and are probably causing some of the sleep trouble
NPR had a story on.this subject you could probably find through Google. I hope your new routine stays successful.
post #50 of 75

My Dumplings were each so different. My personal sleep routine includes an hour or two of reading, and that worked with several of my kids (between bios and fosters, I have gone through sleep issues with several). I read to YoungSon for 2 or more hours a night until he was 12. Yes, twelve. No, that was not a typo. LittleGirl came to me at age 6, with extreme fear of sleeping. Reading settled her down to sleep, and was a great bonding time. I admit this didn't help with her night waking. LittleGuy preferred to sleep on the floor of my room, after reading about 30-60 minutes. BigGirl moved out of the family bed at age 3, and and has never needed to be told to sleep. I do sort of regret that she didn't want to share sleeping or reading together very long.


I never made an issue of bedtime, or acted like I cared if children slept. With the bios, in the family bed, we just lay down together to read. I guess I would have read all night if sleep hadn't come. With foster kids, cosleeping isn't allowed, so I kept a rocking chair in kid's room. Child would be in bed or on my lap. I was pretty willing to read for hours. Gradually, the time decreased. I miss that special close bonding of reading together at bedtime. I read the whole series of Little House on the Prairie, Harry Potter, Series of Unfortunate Events, and many others. We especially liked series, for the continuity. When we were at the picture book stage, I got 100s of books from the library, to avoid getting bored myself. Yes, I still had to read Chicka-Chicka-Boom-Boom and some others 1000s of times. But I genuinely enjoyed that time, and frankly, I miss it with no Littles around anymore.


A funny aside: when the bio-Dumplings were toddler/preschool age, we lived very near the equator, so the sun went down around 6, year 'round. I had them convinced that people went to bed when the sun went to bed. Just a fact of life, and they accepted that. But it backfired when we moved to high northern latitudes in the summer. The sun was still up at 10 or 11! So much for that plan (manipulation)!orngbiggrin.gif


Well, this post has turned into more nostalgia than advice. I guess the reason this worked for me is that the purpose never was to "get the child to sleep", but rather a sincerely preferred activity we shared. I am sure the kids picked up on that, so there never was a bedtime battle at all, even if a child didn't sleep much. I figured laying down, relaxing, was nearly as good as sleep.

post #51 of 75
Thread Starter 

Wow, this has been a popular thread! 


We have been successful in getting to sleep by 10 every day for about a week now. (I say we because I usually go to bed with him). We have virtually eliminated the nightlight. Overall I am hesitant to talk to the doctor about my son's sleep because he told me when DS was 6 months that he would never learn to sleep through the night if I didn't immediately start putting him into his crib at 7pm and leaving the room until  7am. However, I will ask him about melatonin.


Anyway, I just got off the phone with his main teacher (rather than the director I spoke to last week). I called her to assess his current napping situation as well as his general behaviour. She said he has been not wanting to tidy up lately and crying easily, but overall he acts pretty normally for a 3-year-old. As for napping, she said it takes him a while to settle down and he tends to talk/sing and try to get out of bed if she is not sitting beside him to keep him down, but most of the time he falls asleep eventually. It is only occasionally that he doesn't sleep at all. I asked how long he sleeps and she said usually they wake him after an hour at my request. I told her not to do that anymore and she said they wake everyone at 2:00 regardless of when they fall asleep, so she will let me know whether they have to wake him or whether he goes back to sleeping the whole time again (today he fell asleep at 12:30, so that will be 1.5 hours). She also sympathized with the sleep situation, saying her 8yo son has always been a late sleeper and she gives him melatonin to get him to sleep by 9 on week nights and lets him sleep on his own schedule on weekends. I do feel much better after talking to her than I did after talking to the director last week.

post #52 of 75

Another thing to ask about: do his off-days have the same sleep schedule as his school days?  Just checking.  They should be in your situation, if they aren't already.  


I also wonder about his sensitivity to fruits and sugars?  Some kids find anything high in any sugars--natural or otherwise-- far too stimulating.  I think someone mentioned carbs a ways back.  Food can enhance sleepiness, or rev people up-- I think carbohydrates can work both directions.  Something good and warm to the tummy-- like "Sleepytime tea"-- can add to sleepiness.  And perhaps try a sleep pillow-- chamomile, lavender, mugwort and mint (I think that's right.)

post #53 of 75
Mint is stimulating. Chamomile and lavender are good. Not sure about mugwort.
post #54 of 75

Mint is what I wasn't sure about.  Mugwort is a traditional ingredient in sleepytime pillows.  I wouldn't put it in tea for children.

post #55 of 75
Chamomile has antibiotic properties, so, like chlorinated water, it attacks or elininates helpful bacteria.
post #56 of 75
I apologize if this has been said I didn't read all the responses but please do not lock your child in his room. From a legal standpoint that could easily be charged as child abuse. I cannot believe that was a suggestion. Perhaps your child is very smart abd simply didn't need that much sleep. Yes that's a drag for you and them but smart kids just don't need that much sleep. Just a thought.
post #57 of 75

Mugwort strengthens/enhances dreams.  I do not put this in children's dream pillows. . . . they are already strong dreamers and mugwort can strengthen bad dreams as well as good ones.


While Chamomile is known to be an effective anti-biotic, it is not something that will disrupt the good bacteria in your gut if taken as a tea.  The aroma from a sleep pillow is only calming.


For a young child I would try lavender and chamomile flowers and maybe rose flowers in a pillow, but only if that child likes the smell.  A 3year old's sense of smell is very sensitive and aroma likes/dislikes are very personal.


My 8 year old heard that garlic is used to keep bad things away, so she started taking a head of garlic to bed with her.  Seems to keep the bad dreams away for my eccentric child. Who would have thought?  

post #58 of 75
Why would chamomile not attack helpful bacteria? An antibiotic is an antibiotic.
post #59 of 75
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

Chamomile has antibiotic properties, so, like chlorinated water, it attacks or elininates helpful bacteria.


Can you provide a source to support this? 

post #60 of 75
Originally Posted by OrmEmbar View Post


My 8 year old heard that garlic is used to keep bad things away, so she started taking a head of garlic to bed with her.  Seems to keep the bad dreams away for my eccentric child. Who would have thought?  



Thanks for the better info on sleep pillows.  My herbal knowledge is rusty anymore.

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