or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Baby › Baby Health › Vaccinations › Vaccinations Debate › Bioethicist says parents who don't vaccinate should face liability for consequences
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Bioethicist says parents who don't vaccinate should face liability for consequences - Page 14

post #261 of 412

Several posts to this discussion are not acceptable and I am issuing warnings and infractions and may be restricting participation for some members if it continues. Please post about the topic and not the individual. 

post #262 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

Saw this article today on Reddit.  

 

He says "If your kid gets the measles, and remember public health officials are getting very very good at tracing outbreaks to their source, and makes my kid sick (can happen since vaccine is not 100 percent effective), my newborn baby die (newborns can’t benefit from vaccines) or my wife miscarry (fetuses are at especially high risk), then shouldn’t I be able to sue you for the harm you have done?"

 

http://www.pri.org/stories/health/bioethicist-says-parents-who-don-t-vaccinate-should-face-liability-for-consequences-13929.html

 

What does everyone think about this? 


Here's an article from last year with more information on where Caplan's argument comes from http://www.nbcnews.com/health/bioethicist-us-children-suffer-vaccine-exemptions-917155

Note how 9 infants died from pertussis last year and 2012 disease cases up until July 31 or so were more than double the number of cases from 2011 for the same time period

 

Admitedly however, the occurrence of the 2012 cannot be automatically blamed on exemptions. CDC personnel stated they did not think the exemptions caused the 2012 outbreaks throughout the U.S http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2012/t0719_pertussis_epidemic.html

post #263 of 412

My husband, 32 years old and healthy as an ox, received the DTAP (or whatever the whooping cough one is called) Vaccine and immediately spiked a fever that had him experiencing vertigo and vomiting as well as not being able to barely get out of bed for 4 days. My Chemistry teacher, friend, 38 years old, experienced the same thing in the same year. Would I give this to an infant? Hell No. I am not a sadist. 

post #264 of 412
Different people react differently. Many infant gets the vaccine which your husband suffered reactions from with no problem. Both of my kids did, and their experience is the norm thankfully.
post #265 of 412

It appears measures are being taken already in some parts of the world. Here's a recent small but important measure taken in Australia

http://www.care2.com/causes/australia-cracks-down-on-parents-against-vaccinations.html

post #266 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakunin View Post

It appears measures are being taken already in some parts of the world. Here's a recent small but important measure taken in Australia
http://www.care2.com/causes/australia-cracks-down-on-parents-against-vaccinations.html

That article is very one-sided and not a great piece of journalism. So, it's good for people's right to be taken away? And it's good that this will mainly hurt the poor?

I'm sorry, how is this good? I think a lot of people who vaccinate would not agree with this tactic. People should have a right to refused medical care.
post #267 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Different people react differently. Many infant gets the vaccine which your husband suffered reactions from with no problem. Both of my kids did, and their experience is the norm thankfully.

and many many infants get the vaccine, have bad reactions which are then dismissed by the dr...so how are we to know  how many true cases of vaccine reaction there really are if they constantly get dismissed as 'normal'?

post #268 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalia View Post




That article is very one-sided and not a great piece of journalism. So, it's good for people's right to be taken away? And it's good that this will mainly hurt the poor?

I'm sorry, how is this good? I think a lot of people who vaccinate would not agree with this tactic. People should have a right to refused medical care.

its about controlling the masses, esp the poor.  An independently wealthy person does not have to worry about money or tax credits, and can refuse any medical treatment they want to.   Did australia collude with the USA to propagate this type of sub-humanism?   Is this type of scenario likely to come to the USA?

post #269 of 412
Quote:
Here's a recent small but important measure taken in Australia

It is important to coerce parents into vaccinating by taking away child credits (paid for by the parents own tax dollars I presume)???

post #270 of 412
Quote:
Is this type of scenario likely to come to the USA?

I don't know how likely it is, but I suspect it is possible, especially when we already have a medical culture which tells parents, contrary to what the law actually states, that their kids have to be vaxxed in order to go to school, as well as some families on Medicaid being told that they must vaxx in order to receive services.

post #271 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakunin View Post

It appears measures are being taken already in some parts of the world. Here's a recent small but important measure taken in Australia

http://www.care2.com/causes/australia-cracks-down-on-parents-against-vaccinations.html

RIght, because that's how governments do stuff: arm twisting, threats, violence, etc.  I realize that the questions your post has brought up are unlikely to be answered, as you have yet to answer any questions I've asked in response to your posts.  I am going to look into the block feature (something I never really thought I'd do) since you clearly only want to post stuff, not actually discuss stuff w/ those who have questions/comments on your posts.

 

What other government forced/enforced/mandated invasive procedures/policies are you okay w/?  forced sterilization?  limiting of family size? rationing of food and/or supplies?  limiting the number of children a person can have who is on public assistance?  What others are you okay w/?  

 

I've asked before: do you have children? 

 

Sus

post #272 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by fruitfulmomma View Post

I don't know how likely it is, but I suspect it is possible, especially when we already have a medical culture which tells parents, contrary to what the law actually states, that their kids have to be vaxxed in order to go to school, as well as some families on Medicaid being told that they must vaxx in order to receive services.

I'm thinking it's unlikely because of how hypocritical it would be to have something like what's happening in Australia & the vaccine court thing.  Although, that's likely too logical. dizzy.gif

 

Sus


Edited by mama24-7 - 8/24/13 at 9:15am
post #273 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Different people react differently. Many infant gets the vaccine which your husband suffered reactions from with no problem. Both of my kids did, and their experience is the norm thankfully.

And the norm is also for people to make through the measles fine. But some people have complications. So again I ask, which "side" is right in choosing to protect their children? Which side has the right to force the other what to do?
post #274 of 412
Oh goody. So now in Australia, the fundamental human right to informed consent in medical decision-making is available only to those privileged enough to afford it.

They've got friendly people and awesome beaches, but sometimes I wonder how Japonica can stand to live there.
post #275 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama24-7 View Post

I'm thinking it's unlikely because of how hypocritical it would be to have something like what's happening in Australia (&seems to happen in Canada, based on japonica's post, I think it was) & the vaccine court thing.  Although, that's likely too logical. dizzy.gif

 

Sus

Canada does not in any way tie vaccine status to family allowance.

post #276 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Canada does not in any way tie vaccine status to family allowance.

Thank you for correcting me.  Off to edit my post.  I've no clue what it was I was thinking of then!

 

Sus

post #277 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama24-7 View Post

RIght, because that's how governments do stuff: arm twisting, threats, violence, etc.  I realize that the questions your post has brought up are unlikely to be answered, as you have yet to answer any questions I've asked in response to your posts.  I am going to look into the block feature (something I never really thought I'd do) since you clearly only want to post stuff, not actually discuss stuff w/ those who have questions/comments on your posts.

 

What other government forced/enforced/mandated invasive procedures/policies are you okay w/?  forced sterilization?  limiting of family size? rationing of food and/or supplies?  limiting the number of children a person can have who is on public assistance?  What others are you okay w/?  

 

I've asked before: do you have children? 

 

Sus

It doesn't seem appropriate to immediately judge the decision taken by the Australian government. They've had a problem with keeping vaccination rates over 90% which they state has lead to outbreaks of diseases they had controlled in the past http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-18/labor-to-cut-tax-benefit-for-parent-who-don27t-immunise-childr/4894390

Another argument is that these outbreaks have often been tracked to clusters of unvaccinated citizens.

 

It is not uncommon for governments to make policy decisions when outbreaks are occurring. I've stated this in the past, but a lot of countries who took the whooping cough vaccine out of the schedule, eventually had to bring it back when outbreaks started to get out of hand http://www.fcs.uga.edu/cfd/cdl/docs/vaccines_exemptions.pdf

 

Regarding your question: yes, I have a two year old boy, planning on baby number two. My boy has been vaccinated as suggested by the CDC schedule and he's a nice and healthy child, with the energy of 1,000 energizer bunnies

post #278 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakunin View Post

 

Regarding your question: yes, I have a two year old boy, planning on baby number two. My boy has been vaccinated as suggested by the CDC schedule and he's a nice and healthy child, with the energy of 1,000 energizer bunnies

 

That's nice but I am sure you recognize that it isn't 'data' anymore than a Vax Injured child is. I don't think the word 'judge' is appropriate when applied to a governmental policy. Governements & corporations are not people, their policies are subject to criticism and they don't have feelings that can be hurt. 

 

They are actually restricting choice to higher income groups. We do that in the US too, but not as overtly, through cash, we do it through the media & social pressure.

post #279 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalia View Post

And the norm is also for people to make through the measles fine. But some people have complications. So again I ask, which "side" is right in choosing to protect their children? Which side has the right to force the other what to do?

I'll take the odds on vaccine safety over measles any day. And if 1/1000 (or 1/3000) died from a vaccine reaction I wouldn't get that vaccine either.

But people shouldn't be forced to do anything. I think they should be better educated to assess the odds themselves.
post #280 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

I'll take the odds on vaccine safety over measles any day. And if 1/1000 (or 1/3000) died from a vaccine reaction I wouldn't get that vaccine either.

But people shouldn't be forced to do anything. I think they should be better educated to assess the odds themselves.

I agree. I am all for better education for everyone regarding this subject.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Vaccinations Debate
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Baby › Baby Health › Vaccinations › Vaccinations Debate › Bioethicist says parents who don't vaccinate should face liability for consequences