or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Baby › Baby Health › Vaccinations › Vaccinations Debate › Bioethicist says parents who don't vaccinate should face liability for consequences
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Bioethicist says parents who don't vaccinate should face liability for consequences - Page 20

post #381 of 412
Thread Starter 
"Viral Shedding and Live Vaccines

Viral shedding, in which someone becomes contagious and can pass a virus to someone else, is sometimes a concern when parents think about live vaccines.

Fortunately, viral shedding is not usually a problem because:

the MMR vaccine doesn't cause shedding
the chicken pox vaccine can rarely cause shedding if a child develops a vesicular rash after getting vaccinated, but can be avoided by avoiding direct contact with the rash
the rotavirus vaccine only causes shedding in stool, so can be avoided with routine hygiene techniques, such as good hand washing, and if immunocompromised people avoid diaper changes, etc., for at least a week after a child gets a rotavirus vaccine
transmission of the live, nasal spray flu vaccine has not been found in several settings, including people with HIV infection, children getting chemotherapy, and immunocompromised people in health-care settings"


Another concern for parents is whether healthy children should get live vaccines if they will be exposed to someone else who has a problem with their immune system. Fortunately, except for OPV and the smallpox vaccine, which aren't typically used, children who live with someone who has an immunologic deficiency can get most vaccines in the routine childhood immunization schedule, such as MMR, Varivax, and the rotavirus vaccines. "



http://pediatrics.about.com/od/immunizations/a/live-vaccines.htm
post #382 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post



I find it pretty funny that so many anti vaxers are worried about catching something from a vaccine shedding which is almost unheard of in healthy person. Are they mild childhood diseases or aren't they? The chance of my newborn catching measles from your unvaccinated child is many many many times higher than the risk of your child contracting measles from the vaccine. But I'm the crazy one, of course eyesroll.gif

 

I can't speak for anybody else, and since I'm not anti-vax I might not be who you're talking about, but when I point out the fact that people who recently received a live vax have the potential to shed it's not because I fear them, I really don't, it's because in most regions the chances that an unvaccinated person will ever be carrying M, M or R is pretty small, but there's a relatively high chance that somebody who is recently vaccinated will be shedding for a while, even if the chances of transmission are small.  So it seems a bit out of proportion to make such a very big deal about the very small chances that an unvaccinated person could be carrying a disease and completely ignore the hordes of kids running around who actually are carrying.

post #383 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post


I find it pretty funny that so many anti vaxers are worried about catching something from a vaccine shedding which is almost unheard of in healthy person. Are they mild childhood diseases or aren't they? The chance of my newborn catching measles from your unvaccinated child is many many many times higher than the risk of your child contracting measles from the vaccine. But I'm the crazy one, of course eyesroll.gif

 

 

First I am not anti vax, I am pro health freedom, and the right to refuse all medical treatments, including vaccines, if I don't want them or want my children to have them. I personally couldn't care less if people choose to vaccinate for whatever reason, that is their choice.

 

I am not in the least bit concerned with sheading vaccines, if my children caught measles from a recently vaccinated child, so beit, I do not fear mealses.

post #384 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakunin View Post

According to CDC "More than 95% of the people who receive a single dose of MMR will develop immunity to all 3 viruses. A second vaccine dose gives immunity to almost all of those who did not respond to the first dose." that sounds like a big difference.

That means that 95% of the people who get a second MMR DIDN'T NEED ONE.
post #385 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post


That means that 95% of the people who get a second MMR DIDN'T NEED ONE.

Not quite. You might not need it for measles, but one would still need to consider the other two diseases. What it does mean is that one is MUCH safer from measles with the vaccine

post #386 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

I don't have time to respond to everyone, we are going out of town tomorrow and still have laundry to do and bags to pack!

Obviously I would never let a child near my husband if he had MRSA. It was to illustrate how ridiculous SERENbats position was that you have to either share everything or nothing. (you totally missed my point!)

Many people don't want unvaccinated children around their newborns, it's not a radical concept and I do strongly believe in herd immunity. Science and data are on my side on this one.

This whole notion that as long as your kids don't look sick they aren't contagious is baffling. Many many VPDs are the most contagious before any symptoms appear. So just asking if any of your children look sick isn't enough IMO.

I find it pretty funny that so many anti vaxers are worried about catching something from a vaccine shedding which is almost unheard of in healthy person.(is this dig meant at me?- if so you are not even on the correct thread here! - in the "Right to know" you obviously did not read what I posted to draw this conclusion-no where have I read anti vaxer are "worried" ) Are they mild childhood diseases or aren't they? The chance of my newborn catching measles from your unvaccinated child is many many many times higher than the risk of your child contracting measles from the vaccine. But I'm the crazy one, of course eyesroll.gif

No snark, I'd really like to see an instance of where a measles outbreak occurred from someone contracting measles from a vaccine shedding.

From what I've read, the measles vaccine only gives you a measles like rash that's not itchy or contagious to other people.

it's one thing to deflect when your position isn't popular (far from it in this thread) it's another to not read but only to read in what suites your agenda

 

really, if one is soooooo worried about their newborn, do what is prudent, don't go out in public with a week old infant for shopping or dinner, etc and know that the common cold (NOT just a VPD) can KILL a young child and there is not vac for that

 

so worried about measles - stay away and keep your child at home until it's vaccinated - very simply, allow only those who can show you documentation to visit ( I can guarantee we don't come visit you)

 

when a very unpopular label/branding gets floated around it usually (in my experience) comes from a deep paranoia that statically is unfounded - just how many young under the age of vaccination children die each year form the un-vax child?

A young unvac baby has a far GREATER death chance from OTHER things, NOT unvaccinated children - page 13 if you care to read it (no where did I see measles listed) - 

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_07.pdf

 

Congenital malformations, deformations and chromosomal abnormalities ................................(Q00–Q99)

Disorders related to short gestation and low birth weight, notelsewhereclassified .............................(P07)

Suddeninfantdeathsyndrome..........................(R95)

Newborn affected by maternal complications of pregnancy . . . . . . . . .

(P01) Accidents(unintentionalinjuries) ......................

(V01–X59) Newborn affected by complications of placenta, cord and membranes . .

(P02) Bacterialsepsisofnewborn ...........................

(P36) Respiratorydistressofnewborn .........................

(P22) Diseasesofthecirculatorysystem .....................

(I00–I99) Neonatalhemorrhage ............. 

 

post #387 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakunin View Post
 

Not quite. You might not need it for measles, but one would still need to consider the other two diseases. What it does mean is that one is MUCH safer from measles with the vaccine

the vaccine is not always  a guarantee

 

Quote:
Dallas County Health and Human Services says one unvaccinated child traveled to another county in May, got measles, then came back and infected a 14-year-old sibling who was vaccinated.


Read more: http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/23159272/statewide-health-alert-issued-in-texas-for-measles#ixzz2dPUc6FFQ

 

and please do not patronize those of us by saying his immunity 'must have worn off'

post #388 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post
 

the vaccine is not always  a guarantee

 


Read more: http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/23159272/statewide-health-alert-issued-in-texas-for-measles#ixzz2dPUc6FFQ

 

and please do not patronize those of us by saying his immunity 'must have worn off'

MUCH safer, does not imply guarantee. Otherwise the statement would say "100% of the people who receive a single dose of MMR will develop immunity" instead of 95%:eyesroll

post #389 of 412

many birth controls have a higher effective rate - http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/unintendedpregnancy/contraception.htm

 

life is no guarantee either

 

fully vac and re-booster and make sure everyone in your bubble is up-to-date and have a car accident and die - those odds are greater 

post #390 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post



This whole notion that as long as your kids don't look sick they aren't contagious is baffling. Many many VPDs are the most contagious before any symptoms appear. So just asking if any of your children look sick isn't enough IMO.
Of course people can have something and be contagious before they show symptoms
When I said unvaxxed kids are not sick with a VAD, it is because typically, they are not.  The average number of cases of measles per year in the USA is around 60.  So, 60/300 000 000.  Big, big risk - Not.  Now, you could argue that measles vaccination keeps the rate low, but that is completely beside the point where current risk assessment in concerned.   The average unvaxxed child today poses almost no threat to your family.  Of course, prevalence varies according to disease - some have a lower risk than measles, and some are higher - but the higher ones tends to have less effective vaccines, period (hence the high prevalence) in which case you might want to limit newborn solialising anyways.  


I find it pretty funny that so many anti vaxers are worried about catching something from a vaccine shedding which is almost unheard of in healthy person. Are they mild childhood diseases or aren't they? The chance of my newborn catching measles from your unvaccinated child is many many many times higher than the risk of your child contracting measles from the vaccine. But I'm the crazy one, of course eyesroll.gif
Did someone say you are crazy?  Are you saying non-vaxxers are?  In any event - I do not worry about live viruses much.  I would if I were immunocompromised and living in a house with a young child vaccinated on schedule.  I bring it up because I think it is hypocritical when people claim non-vaxxers are putting others at risk, when they themselves do things that put others at risk.  


 

k.

post #391 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

"Viral Shedding and Live Vaccines

Viral shedding, in which someone becomes contagious and can pass a virus to someone else, is sometimes a concern when parents think about live vaccines.

Fortunately, viral shedding is not usually a problem because:

the MMR vaccine doesn't cause shedding
the chicken pox vaccine can rarely cause shedding if a child develops a vesicular rash after getting vaccinated, but can be avoided by avoiding direct contact with the rash
the rotavirus vaccine only causes shedding in stool, so can be avoided with routine hygiene techniques, such as good hand washing, and if immunocompromised people avoid diaper changes, etc., for at least a week after a child gets a rotavirus vaccine
transmission of the live, nasal spray flu vaccine has not been found in several settings, including people with HIV infection, children getting chemotherapy, and immunocompromised people in health-care settings"


Another concern for parents is whether healthy children should get live vaccines if they will be exposed to someone else who has a problem with their immune system. Fortunately, except for OPV and the smallpox vaccine, which aren't typically used, children who live with someone who has an immunologic deficiency can get most vaccines in the routine childhood immunization schedule, such as MMR, Varivax, and the rotavirus vaccines. "



http://pediatrics.about.com/od/immunizations/a/live-vaccines.htm

1. My niece (who lives with my mom) got the chicken pox vaccine, and within a week or so my mom had shingles. I'm sure many on here will call it a coincidence, but my mom's doc agreed it was most likely from the child getting the chicken pox vaccine.

 

2. As to the bolded, THAT IS HOW ROTAVIRUS IS TRANSMITTED ANYWAY! Why do we need this vaccine if the "shedding can be avoided with routine hygiene techniques such as good hand washing???? banghead.gif (I am aware it is more dangerous in underdeveloped countries, that is not what I am talking about). Truly, tell me how, after reading that, one can justify this vaccine being on the US schedule? 

post #392 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by littlec View Post
 

1. My niece (who lives with my mom) got the chicken pox vaccine, and within a week or so my mom had shingles. I'm sure many on here will call it a coincidence, but my mom's doc agreed it was most likely from the child getting the chicken pox vaccine.

 

2. As to the bolded, THAT IS HOW ROTAVIRUS IS TRANSMITTED ANYWAY! Why do we need this vaccine if the "shedding can be avoided with routine hygiene techniques such as good hand washing???? banghead.gif (I am aware it is more dangerous in underdeveloped countries, that is not what I am talking about). Truly, tell me how, after reading that, one can justify this vaccine being on the US schedule? 

 

1.  How would exposure to chickenpox vaccine shedding cause shingles?  You can not catch shingle by being around someone with chickenpox. When you have chickenpox, even after you are better, the virus is never completely gone from your system. It hides latent in nerve cell bodies.  In times of immune weakness such a caused by other illness, medication, or stress it can reactivate and break out along the nerve line and that is shingles. You do not get shingles by being around someone with chickenpox.  Being exposed to chickenpox is actually supposed to act as a natural booster to keep your immune system strong in fighting it, and is why if you look around this site you will find concern that the reduced rate of chickenpox going due to kids being vaccinated will mean less exposure to the disease by adults and that without this natural booster, shingle rates will go up.  Some believe this is already happening, but some studies don't show it.  It is a valid concern, but experts believe that those vaccinated are less likely to have shingles than those with the natural disease, so even if shingles do go up, it will be temporary and then they will drop to lower numbers than before.  The shingles vaccine is actually the same substance as the chickenpox vaccine, just at a much higher dose than is given to kids. 

 

2.  Because while it can be transmitted by shedding, the risk of transmission and infection with vaccine-type disease is much less than with the wild disease, and when it does happen, the vaccine disease is much milder than the wild. 

post #393 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by littlec View Post
 

1. My niece (who lives with my mom) got the chicken pox vaccine, and within a week or so my mom had shingles. I'm sure many on here will call it a coincidence, but my mom's doc agreed it was most likely from the child getting the chicken pox vaccine.

 

2. As to the bolded, THAT IS HOW ROTAVIRUS IS TRANSMITTED ANYWAY! Why do we need this vaccine if the "shedding can be avoided with routine hygiene techniques such as good hand washing???? banghead.gif (I am aware it is more dangerous in underdeveloped countries, that is not what I am talking about). Truly, tell me how, after reading that, one can justify this vaccine being on the US schedule? 

 

There is no way in the world that your mom's shingles was caused by your niece's chicken pox vaccination.  That is completely impossible.

post #394 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chknlovr View Post
 

 

There is no way in the world that your mom's shingles was caused by your niece's chicken pox vaccination.  That is completely impossible.

not if the mom was on any kind of immuno suppressant drug, like prednisone.  

http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/v/varivax/varivax_pi.pdf

Quote:

• Avoid contact with high-risk individuals susceptible to varicella 

because of possible transmission of varicella vaccine virus. (5.4)

post #395 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post
 

not if the mom was on any kind of immuno suppressant drug, like prednisone.  

http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/v/varivax/varivax_pi.pdf

 

Still wouldn't cause it.  It could cause primary varicella (chicken pox) but not shingles, which is a reactivation of an existing virus.

post #396 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by pers View Post

1.  How would exposure to chickenpox vaccine shedding cause shingles?  You can not catch shingle by being around someone with chickenpox. When you have chickenpox, even after you are better, the virus is never completely gone from your system. It hides latent in nerve cell bodies.  In times of immune weakness such a caused by other illness, medication, or stress it can reactivate and break out along the nerve line and that is shingles. You do not get shingles by being around someone with chickenpox.  Being exposed to chickenpox is actually supposed to act as a natural booster to keep your immune system strong in fighting it, and is why if you look around this site you will find concern that the reduced rate of chickenpox going due to kids being vaccinated will mean less exposure to the disease by adults and that without this natural booster, shingle rates will go up.  Some believe this is already happening, but some studies don't show it.  It is a valid concern, but experts believe that those vaccinated are less likely to have shingles than those with the natural disease, so even if shingles do go up, it will be temporary and then they will drop to lower numbers than before.  The shingles vaccine is actually the same substance as the chickenpox vaccine, just at a much higher dose than is given to kids. 

2.  Because while it can be transmitted by shedding, the risk of transmission and infection with vaccine-type disease is much less than with the wild disease, and when it does happen, the vaccine disease is much milder than the wild. 

This is my understanding, as well.

But if disease transmitted by viral shedding is milder than wild, why is the Israeli government freaking out about polio virus found in sewage, when the oral polio vaccine is used there, and that would OF COURSE result in viral shedding in feces?

We're told that in India, viral shedding from OPV is considered a good thing, as it extends the effect of the OPV to the unvaccinated.

Doesn't that seem a bit inconsistent?
post #397 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post

not if the mom was on any kind of immuno suppressant drug, like prednisone.  
http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/v/varivax/varivax_pi.pdf

Emmy, being on prednisone is known to put adults at risk for shingles. Prednisone "turns off" the immune system. The idea is to stop autoimmune activity long enough to switch off a vicious cycle and give the body a chance to recover and reset, but it can also shut down the body's ability to keep the chickenpox virus dormant. Remember, the chickenpox virus never leaves the body after initial infection; it hides in one of the spinal nerves and goes dormant. Re-exposure to someone with chickenpox reminds the immune system to make enough antibodies to keep that virus dormant. If the immune system is shut down via prednisone, those antibodies will not be made. Physical and emotional stress are the most common triggers.
post #398 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post


Emmy, being on prednisone is known to put adults at risk for shingles. Prednisone "turns off" the immune system. The idea is to stop autoimmune activity long enough to switch off a vicious cycle and give the body a chance to recover and reset, but it can also shut down the body's ability to keep the chickenpox virus dormant. Remember, the chickenpox virus never leaves the body after initial infection; it hides in one of the spinal nerves and goes dormant. Re-exposure to someone with chickenpox reminds the immune system to make enough antibodies to keep that virus dormant. If the immune system is shut down via prednisone, those antibodies will not be made. Physical and emotional stress are the most common triggers.

yes i know that is what i was trying to convey...i guess my wording came out wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chknlovr View Post
 

 

There is no way in the world that your mom's shingles was caused by your niece's chicken pox vaccination.  That is completely impossible.

not if the mom was on any kind of immuno suppressant drug, like prednisone.  

http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/v/varivax/varivax_pi.pdf

Quote:

• Avoid contact with high-risk individuals susceptible to varicella 

because of possible transmission of varicella vaccine virus. (5.4)

post #399 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post

yes i know that is what i was trying to convey...i guess my wording came out wrong
not if the mom was on any kind of immuno suppressant drug, like prednisone.  
http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/v/varivax/varivax_pi.pdf

I'm not sure your mother's exposure to vaccine virus shedding would have had anything to do with her shingles. Do you have a theory on the mechanism by which that would have affected anything?

Prednisone all by itself could have switched off her immune system's ability to keep her own virus dormant; re-exposure wouldn't be necessary.

Or, if it were, then coming into contact with a child coming down with wild chicken pox would have been far, far worse.
post #400 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post


But if disease transmitted by viral shedding is milder than wild, why is the Israeli government freaking out about polio virus found in sewage, when the oral polio vaccine is used there, and that would OF COURSE result in viral shedding in feces?

We're told that in India, viral shedding from OPV is considered a good thing, as it extends the effect of the OPV to the unvaccinated.

Doesn't that seem a bit inconsistent?

 

The strain found in Israel is wild polio, not vaccine polio. 

 

Also, according to a quick Google search, it appears that they are quickly rushing to get children immunized with oral polio right now since it i more effective especially at preventing transmission of wild virus, but the routine vaccination schedule is for the shot, not oral.  The shot uses killed virus, so does not shed.  

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Vaccinations Debate
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Baby › Baby Health › Vaccinations › Vaccinations Debate › Bioethicist says parents who don't vaccinate should face liability for consequences