The Holy Spirit today.....

[its_our_family]

It is a broad question, I know. But can you tell me what you feel is the role of the Holy Spirit today. (I'm looking for anything...even if you say...What Holy Spirit??)

If it weren't too weird can you also tell me what you cosider yourself to be (spiritually speaking)

[stafl]

I'll jump in with both feet!


IMHO - the holy spirit is how the Divine One communicates with us. It goes by many names and there are many different descriptions that I think are all attempts to anthropomorphise and put words to something beyond the limits of our language and even our understanding. Socrates called it "daimonion" - his inner voice. Jesus called it Elias. There are many other accounts that I feel are descriptions of the same thing from different perspectives.
What is its role? Same as it ever was, only it seems fewer people are listening nowadays.

edited to correct grammatical error

[its_our_family]

Originally Posted by stafl

What is its role? Same as it ever was, only it seems fewer people are listening nowadays.

How are ppl listening less?? Do you mean they are NOT acting upon what they "feel" the Spirit moves them to feel. Or that they are incapable of hearing to begin with...and is this a choice or just because we don't feel we need to really listen and just do what is easiest??

[stafl]

Originally Posted by its_our_family

How are ppl listening less?? Do you mean they are NOT acting upon what they "feel" the Spirit moves them to feel. Or that they are incapable of hearing to begin with...and is this a choice or just because we don't feel we need to really listen and just do what is easiest??

I think we are all capable of "hearing" what the Spirit has to say. I just think most people choose not to listen, or maybe they're afraid to listen. Or maybe they are listening, and afraid to act upon it for fear of being labeled insane or something. I also think that when people mistakenly believe the spirit to be something other than what it is, they can't hear it anymore, either. Like when Jesus was dying and asked "Elios, why have you forsaken me?" Elias was still there, but when J started thinking E was G, he couldn't hear him anymore.

And, the reason I think people aren't listening is because if they were, surely they wouldn't be doing so much harm to other people.

now it's your turn - what do you think the Holy Spirit is, and what is its role?

[Spicey Momma]

I agree, peopel are just not listening. It seems most have taught themselves how "not to hear it". I am sure I don't hear it as often as He speaks to me. Wouldn't it be great it I was arguing w/ DH or DS and the Holy Spirit shook me by the shoulders and said "LOVE YOUR FAMILY FOR THE SHORT TIME YOU ARE TOGETHER AND REJOICE IN THIS DAY". Gosh I would be a much nicer person. :LOL OK, that is my goal today. I am going to try to say that everytime I start in on someone.

[its_our_family]

Originally Posted by stafl

.

now it's your turn - what do you think the Holy Spirit is, and what is its role?

Well, to be quite honest...I'm not sure. I know that I personally don't try to listen. Dh and I are in a moment of "spiritual discovery". Not really changing what we believe but trying to look at it from a new perspective and especially evaluate our methods. I'm (not sure about dh) am looking into a more "mystical...spirit lead" approach.

Basically I'm looking for what works...sounds kind of simple but.... we are reading the book "A New Kind of Christian" by a guy named McLaren. It is an awesome book which has made me realize I'm not nutty

[Elzabet]

I think that the role of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers is as the Bible says: He is a Comforter, a Counselor, a Teacher; He prays for us when we do not know how to pray. He is God as the Son and the Father are God. And I also agree that few believers hear or, rather, few heed Him these days. Hence the proliferation of division and debate. Jesus prayed for unity among His followers after all.

I totally understand a need for the mystical in our lives though. I've been spending a lot of time in the writings of the Sts Teresa of Jesus (also called Avila) , Therese of Lisieux, and Catherine of Siena. They are well known mystics in the christian tradition and their writings are very inspirational and edifying to me. I also like the site Christian Mystics. I am very much drawn to the contemplative but it is hard with a toddler.

[DaryLLL]

T stafl, who is this Elias you say Jesus referred to? Are you talking Aramaic here? I thought he was made to say, "Eloi (or Eli) lama sabachthani?" Quoting from Psalm 22.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Psa/Psa022.html#top

Would not Elias be Elisha as we call him? Successor of Elijah?

Jesus called God, his Father, in Greek. Jesus spoke Greek. There is barely a speck of Hebrew or Aramaic in the whole New Testament.

[Elzabet]

Check the KJV, in Matthew 17:10-13 . Later translations translate the name "Elijah". The Elijah who was to come was identified in Matthew 17:13 as John:

KJV

And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them." Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

NIV

The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

Also in Mark 9.

[stafl]

It's been a loooong time since I was taught Bible verses. My father did speak greek and hebrew and could read aramaic, so what i remember of what he taught me could be any number of things....
Anyway, the Elias in the new testament is the same as Elijah in the old testament. I believe that he is the personification of the Holy Spirit.

[DaryLLL]

Originally Posted by stafl

Anyway, the Elias in the new testament is the same as Elijah in the old testament. I believe that he is the personification of the Holy Spirit.

OK. So you are speaking of Elias, or Elijah. Elias being a Greek translation of the way we attempt to write Elijah in Englsih, as translated from the Hebrew.

Either way, Elijah was not the holy pneuma (spirit). He was the herald of YHWH or Jesus (depending on which Scriptures one is referring to). Of course, you can give the spirit any name you want, but I was confused b/c Elias/jah is not referred to as "spirit" per se in either text.

Some thought either Jesus or John the Baptist were the reincarnation of Elijah.

Neither Elijah or his successor, Elisha (who was written to be given twice the spirit as Elijah) left any written records themsleves.

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0817080.html

[Elzabet]

Originally Posted by stafl

Anyway, the Elias in the new testament is the same as Elijah in the old testament. I believe that he is the personification of the Holy Spirit.

I'm confused--the Elias/Elijah Jesus referred to was John the Baptist per the verses listed. Are there other places where Jesus refers to Elias/Elijah? And how did you come to the conclusion that Elias/Elijah was the personification of the Holy Spirit? Just confused is all, it's an interesting point of view and I'd like to explore it further.

[stafl]

Okay, first and foremost, this is just *my* opinion, and it has taken me 35 years to reach these conclusions. Second, I am not Jewish, nor am I Christian, so my interpretations of certain texts may very well be totally alien to any one else's interpretations. Third, my father was a theologian (among other things), and I have no idea where he originally got the information that he passed along to me. Before he died, we spent hours discussing these things, Elijah in particular.

Elisha, John the Baptist, and Jesus all "heard" Elijah. They weren't actually him, but they were with the spirit. The idea of reincarnation doesn't exist in Biblical text. The idea of a soul separate from the physical body does not exist in Biblical text, either. Elijah comes back because he never really died. I believe he isn't really human at all, but is given human characteristics because of our human habit of anthropomorphosizing everything we do not fully understand. Of all the characters in the Old Testament, he is the only one (or one of a very few) we don't know who his parents were. So, if he isn't human, what is he? I think he's Spirit (with a capital S).
It's the only explanation that makes sense to me, personally.

[DaryLLL]

Originally Posted by stafl

Okay, first and foremost, this is just *my* opinion, and it has taken me 35 years to reach these conclusions. Second, I am not Jewish, nor am I Christian, so my interpretations of certain texts may very well be totally alien to any one else's interpretations. Third, my father was a theologian (among other things), and I have no idea where he originally got the information that he passed along to me. Before he died, we spent hours discussing these things, Elijah in particular.

Well, this is interesting and unique. So these ideas germinated with your father and then you took the ball and ran with it? Your dad sounds really cool. Not like my dad at all...

Elisha, John the Baptist, and Jesus all "heard" Elijah. They weren't actually him, but they were with the spirit.

Can you quote scripture as to when John the B heard Elijah as a spirit, disembodied or otherwise?

So when Elisha took Elijah's cloak, you see this as pure metaphor for Holy Spirit. When John the B told his followers JC was the Lamb, more metaphor?

The idea of reincarnation doesn't exist in Biblical text.

Of course that is debatable.

The idea of a soul separate from the physical body does not exist in Biblical text, either.

I guess you are only talking about canonical scripture, not apocrypha or gnostic texts?

Paul, the first and strongest and only named Xtian writer in the canon, (the rest of the Greek epistles being pseuepigraphical) does not have a word for soul. He refers to 3 levels of being--spirit(pneuma), mind (psyche) and sarkic (fleshly). Some modern writers, however interpret his "psyche" as soul. One receives/perceives pneuma thru the psyche.

Elijah comes back because he never really died. I believe he isn't really human at all, but is given human characteristics because of our human habit of anthropomorphosizing everything we do not fully understand. Of all the characters in the Old Testament, he is the only one (or one of a very few) we don't know who his parents were. So, if he isn't human, what is he? I think he's Spirit (with a capital S).
It's the only explanation that makes sense to me, personally.

Nice. But just because scribes wrote down genologies is not proof those men existed. IMHO of course. YHWH (burning bush, volcano, cloud dweller), Moses, Abraham, Adam, John the B, Yeshu (either one) and all the women, named and unnamed, may be just as mythological as Elijah. Can you entertain that? How would that fit into your theory?

Do we know the names of the parents of all of the 12? Of Paul/Saul? Of the centurion who believed? Of Jos of Arimathea? Etc.

Gamaliel, Herod and Pilate, we know were historical. The rest, scant, if any evidence.

[stafl]

Originally Posted by DaryLLL

Well, this is interesting and unique. So these ideas germinated with your father and then you took the ball and ran with it? Your dad sounds really cool. Not like my dad at all...

not exactly. The idea was originally mine (or I brought up the subject first - amazingly, we had both arrived at the same opinion from different paths - it made for very interesting and enlightening conversation), he helped me refine it and explain it because he had much more knowledge of the Bible than I.

Can you quote scripture as to when John the B heard Elijah as a spirit, disembodied or otherwise?

nope, can't do it, won't do it. You will never see me quote scripture to back up my point of view, ever. It's *my* belief, my point of view, my opinion, I don't need to find text to back it up. I don't need or even want to convince anyone that I am right.

So when Elisha took Elijah's cloak, you see this as pure metaphor for Holy Spirit. When John the B told his followers JC was the Lamb, more metaphor?

I think the entire Bible is metaphor - just my opinion, of course.

[DaryLLL]

Originally Posted by stafl

. You will never see me quote scripture to back up my point of view, ever. It's *my* belief, my point of view, my opinion, I don't need to find text to back it up. I don't need or even want to convince anyone that I am right.

Hm. You can do whatever you want of course. But this is an "academic" discussion board. One would expect occasional refs (and requests for same)to actual texts one uses to draw one's conclusions.

[stafl]

Sorry, I chose the wrong words to explain.
Since this thread was discussing a particular belief rather than any given religion, I was trying to limit my post to my belief/opinion on the matter. What I believe has little to do with what verse you can quote in the Bible, however I have found certain parts of the Bible to help me better understand my own personal beliefs.