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It's not a kids will be kids world anymore

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 

I think that in years past kids naughty behavior was thought of as "kids will be kids" or at least that what the grandparent generations seems to say. However now I am constantly reading and hearing that "kids learn their behavior at home from their parents". In a Wisconsin school district they fine parents over $100 whose children bully. Why, because the kids MUST have learned how to bully from the parents. While I have seen numerous real life examples of children acting and growing up to be very similar to their parents in both positive and negative ways, I can't say that I feel completely comfortable with this new stigma that if my kid is misbehaving they MUST have learned it from ME. 

post #2 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeteaa View Post

While I have seen numerous real life examples of children acting and growing up to be very similar to their parents in both positive and negative ways, I can't say that I feel completely comfortable with this new stigma that if my kid is misbehaving they MUST have learned it from ME. 

 

I don't view this as holding the parent "responsible" but more so accountable.

 

I don't see this as really new - in the past you were held accountable as a parent if you child caused damage and or injury  (such as property etc) depending on their age and now as well - if my child causes injury to another child - let's say biting, and that child need medical care, the other parent has the right to sue me, same if a pet I owned caused injury or damage, bullies should also count-IMO

 

I feel not hold parents accountable causes more harm over all. 

 

ETA- not holding parents accountable if their child bullies is like saying to be bullied really is not as bad as if you child causing other injury - make it count and make it be a real issue-IMO


Edited by serenbat - 6/7/13 at 8:08am
post #3 of 25
I don't think it's fair to assume a child who bullies learned it at home. That might be true in some cases, but I've known very nice parents with bully kids.

On the other hand, parents might be the only people who can stop their kids from bullying. They might be the only people who have the authority. I don't know about a fine - fines hurt the poor terribly but are just a minor inconvenience for those with money. But I don't mind the idea of making parents take charge of their kids if their kids are bullies.

I guess I have mixed feelings.

Very interesting thread and I will be interested to see what others think.
post #4 of 25
Thread Starter 

The school fines was just an example I heard about yesterday that reinforces the overall trend I keep seeing. It was not the basis of my post. I have two dds close in age. They have been raised IMO exactly the same (minus birth order issues) but they have very different personalities. dd2 is more likely to fluff her feathers if she feels threatened by a class mate, while dd1 would probably run away and cry. Yet I feel that todays parents/teachers would look at the situation and think "they must act the way they do because of the parents".... in both positive and negative respects. Seems that "oh, they are 6 yrs old THAT must be why they act the way they do" it not valid anymore.

post #5 of 25

I do think that kids are over protected, hovered over, and don't have enough freedom to learn naturally like they did in years past.  Years ago, if two five year olds were walking down the sidewalk alone, nobody thought a thing.  Now, someone would call the police, the parents would be questioned, and CPS would look into it.  

 

Years ago, if a kid got in trouble at school, the school could handle it.  There wasn't any reason to call the parents about it first, the child just had to clean the lunch room, or fold tables, or whatever job was given to them.  The only way the parents found out about it is if the siblings told on them.  Now, a parent would create such a scene, and call the media if their child has a consequence at school.   So, now the parents get the consequence instead of the kids.   And, the media will still be called.  

 

Occasionally, I see a news story about a school that won't let a child attend because he wore his Hooters T-shirt, and the parents are so outraged that they call the media and it ends up all over the internet.  I'm always amazed at our "But, I wannnnnnttttttttttt" Society, that I don't really mind so much that the parents have to start serving the punishment, if little centeroftheuniverse is not able to handle it.  

 

Today, Tom Sawyar and Huck finn would be put on ADHD medication.  They'd have an IEP plan in school.  They would spend most of their day sitting in a desk because they got a ride to school instead of walking, their recess would be minimal, and if they didn't turn in all their homework, they would sit out for recess, then at lunch, they'd have 15 minutes to inhale as much as they could, throw the rest away, go outside for another 15 minutes, and head inside to sit for another 3 hours.  If the school was very large, they might not get to eat until 1:00 p.m, or have to eat lunch at 10:45 because there isn't enough space in the lunch room for the entire school to eat together then go out to play.  Then, they'd go stand outside to wait for parent pickup, and get a ride home...then they have two hours of homework, piano practice, dinner, bath and off to bed.  

post #6 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeteaa View Post

The school fines was just an example I heard about yesterday that reinforces the overall trend I keep seeing. It was not the basis of my post. I have two dds close in age. They have been raised IMO exactly the same (minus birth order issues) but they have very different personalities. dd2 is more likely to fluff her feathers if she feels threatened by a class mate, while dd1 would probably run away and cry. Yet I feel that todays parents/teachers would look at the situation and think "they must act the way they do because of the parents".... in both positive and negative respects. Seems that "oh, they are 6 yrs old THAT must be why they act the way they do" it not valid anymore.

Oh yeah I do agree that I see a lot of that. Some people feel that saying, "Oh, they are X years old . . ." means that you're excusing the behavior or accepting it as OK, but to me it just means you find the behavior normal for that age and one of the normal things to work on, like learning to tie shoes or whatever.
post #7 of 25

I think the fines and things are a way to engage parents.  I know lots of otherwise lovely parents who think the problems at school are the school's problems, and at the same time they are outraged if any discipline plan is enforced.  Schools can't win.

 

IMO and from my own observations, there's a much MUCH great "kids will be kids" attitude and a lot more acceptance of children and their attendant  noise and activity.

post #8 of 25
I think kids are expected to be little adults rather than kids in a lot of ways and parents tend to hover more. It depends on the neighborhood and the school to some extent though. Our old neighborhood was ridiculous about even allowing kids to play in a fenced yard on their own, some if the neighbors walk their kids the two short blocks to school, and at the park kids are often not allowed to play with other kids. Kids can't even get mad at each other without an adult interfering.
post #9 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by One_Girl View Post

I think kids are expected to be little adults rather than kids in a lot of ways and parents tend to hover more. It depends on the neighborhood and the school to some extent though. Our old neighborhood was ridiculous about even allowing kids to play in a fenced yard on their own, some if the neighbors walk their kids the two short blocks to school, and at the park kids are often not allowed to play with other kids. Kids can't even get mad at each other without an adult interfering.

 


Last weekend a group of 8 year old boys had a swimming pool birthday party.  Squirt guns were brought out.  All the kids went after one kid, then they all went after another kid, then another.  One kid freaks, starts to cry, all the kids stop and move on to doing something else all together.  Teacher gets an email Monday, kids are bullies, never wants her kid in the same class with them and basically goes nuts.  Teacher is like "hold up, this happened outside of school", parents of the "bully" boys were all at the party and saw NOTHING but groups of boys squirting each other and STOPPING when the kid asked them too.  Teacher and principal talk to "bullied" kid and he was like "yea I cried, but it wasn't a big deal, we just stopped playing squirt guns".  All the kids did exactly what they are supposed to do (ask the other kids to stop behavior you don't like, respect your friends wishes) but the adults turned it into a crazy bananas situation.  

post #10 of 25
My DD has been in many little situations like that where a parent steps in and makes things bad when the kids already worked things out, or there make it worse by causing their child to feel attacked and resentful when their parent interferes. It also makes it harder for actual bullying to be taken seriously when everything is perceived as bullying.
post #11 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

 

I don't view this as holding the parent "responsible" but more so accountable.

 

I don't see this as really new - in the past you were held accountable as a parent if you child caused damage and or injury  (such as property etc) depending on their age and now as well - if my child causes injury to another child - let's say biting, and that child need medical care, the other parent has the right to sue me, same if a pet I owned caused injury or damage, bullies should also count-IMO

 

I feel not hold parents accountable causes more harm over all. 

 

ETA- not holding parents accountable if their child bullies is like saying to be bullied really is not as bad as if you child causing other injury - make it count and make it be a real issue-IMO

Very true, I love it when someone explains something from an angle I wouldn't have thought of.  Thanks :)

post #12 of 25

wow I hadn't heard of this. so a dollar amount is now being put on bullying. wow!!! sounds to me like a police state.

 

how does a fine change anything. is it going to be like a ticket. first time caught $100, second time $200, third time $500 and then...

 

so is this an anti alfie kohn/ or sticker chart approach. so instead of reward give a big punishment. sticker chart of bad behavior.

 

to me it doesn't sound like accountable. to me it sounds like - pass the buck. the school doesn't want to deal with it - so lets pass it on to the parents.

 

if I look at my own city and see where the bullying is truly happening its in the schools where parents don't have that kind of money to pay fines.

 

ooh this reminds me of something that I read on fb.  makes me cry. http://acestoohigh.com/2012/04/23/lincoln-high-school-in-walla-walla-wa-tries-new-approach-to-school-discipline-expulsions-drop-85/

 

we should be trying new avenues - not fining the parents. ugh.

 

however I will also say - as others have illustrated - the word bully is being used too often, too loosely, when there really isn't any bullying going on.  

 

bullying does exist and horrendous bullying happens to. but there are situations which are not bullies and its called so. many meanness gets labeled bully.

post #13 of 25


 

to me it doesn't sound like accountable. to me it sounds like - pass the buck. the school doesn't want to deal with it - so lets pass it on to the parents.

 

 

 

I don't think the school should  have to be taking care of these issues. It SHOULD be the responsibility of the parents. Too many parents see the school as the stand-in to teach their kids proper behavior. Nope, sorry, that's the responsibility of the parents.  We have an academic crisis in our schools and a big reason is that teachers are tasked with raising children and managing behavior issues that parents aren't handling themselves.

 

There is a six year old in our neighborhood who is an awful bully. He hurts children and he hurts them on purpose. He is sneaky and smart and if you turn your back on him for a second he'll full on punch another little kid straight in the face, laugh and walk away.    His parents are quiet, church going folks who always seem to be looking the other way when these things happen. If they see it happen they'll make him say "sorry", that's it.    The mom has told me that she's annoyed that the school always puts her "sweet little man" in In-School-Suspension (16 different times in KINDERGARTEN).  Maybe I feel kind of passionately because my child has been hurt several times by this child but it most definitely should be the parents responsibility.    

 

I'm not saying a monetary fine is the best solution but parents should be held accountable for the actions of their children.

post #14 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by momasana View Post

 

I don't think the school should  have to be taking care of these issues. It SHOULD be the responsibility of the parents. Too many parents see the school as the stand-in to teach their kids proper behavior. Nope, sorry, that's the responsibility of the parents.  We have an academic crisis in our schools and a big reason is that teachers are tasked with raising children and managing behavior issues that parents aren't handling themselves.

 

There is a six year old in our neighborhood who is an awful bully. He hurts children and he hurts them on purpose. He is sneaky and smart and if you turn your back on him for a second he'll full on punch another little kid straight in the face, laugh and walk away.    His parents are quiet, church going folks who always seem to be looking the other way when these things happen. If they see it happen they'll make him say "sorry", that's it.    The mom has told me that she's annoyed that the school always puts her "sweet little man" in In-School-Suspension (16 different times in KINDERGARTEN).  Maybe I feel kind of passionately because my child has been hurt several times by this child but it most definitely should be the parents responsibility.    16 times, that is not something JUST the school should be dealing with-IMO

 

I'm not saying a monetary fine is the best solution but parents should be held accountable for the actions of their children.

I agree too (with the bold)!

 

Sadly money does get things done, it helps when the parents do feel the hurt, they tend to take a bit more notice, when other throw out how it effects the poor more, that is like saying the problem is more so with that class-IMO, truancy fines wake up parents

damage to me is damage be it physical/physiological or property it also teaches accountability and I feel that is also the parents job, not the schools

 

I would hope they would require the parents to take a parenting class if this is a habitually problem

post #15 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post

Years ago, if a kid got in trouble at school, the school could handle it.  There wasn't any reason to call the parents about it first, the child just had to clean the lunch room, or fold tables, or whatever job was given to them.  The only way the parents found out about it is if the siblings told on them.  Now, a parent would create such a scene, and call the media if their child has a consequence at school.   So, now the parents get the consequence instead of the kids.   And, the media will still be called.   

ITA. The schools can't discipline the child without huge flack, so I see the money issue as a creative solution to a problem where their hands are tied. I have two very very different kids, so I understand that a child's problem is not always directly a result of the parents. If that were so, I'd be wearing only hot pink and glitter dresses while swishing my hair and whining about everything. However, if my DD was being b*tchy to another kid, or my DS was punching another kid, I would accept that the school should be able to do something. Yea, talk to the kids, but also more. Detention, cleaning tables, whatever. But it seems they can not because a few parents will get ruffled feathers over their precious darlings having a proper, firm consequence. So there are no consequences. Children are now the teachers equals in every way. The result is a classroom that is wild. My DDs class was beyond hopeless. Constant interruptions, kids jumping out of windows and off tables, profanity, sending other kids to the emergency room... I solved my DDs problem by moving her to private school, where the rules are more strict, where behaviour is expected and problems can be treated with consequences, because if you don't like it you can remove your kid, or your kid can be thrown out. I'm happy with this. I am sorry it had to get to this point, but where I am there is no hope whatsoever for public school.

post #16 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by momasana View Post

 

I don't think the school should  have to be taking care of these issues. It SHOULD be the responsibility of the parents. Too many parents see the school as the stand-in to teach their kids proper behavior. Nope, sorry, that's the responsibility of the parents.  We have an academic crisis in our schools and a big reason is that teachers are tasked with raising children and managing behavior issues that parents aren't handling themselves.

 

There is a six year old in our neighborhood who is an awful bully. He hurts children and he hurts them on purpose. He is sneaky and smart and if you turn your back on him for a second he'll full on punch another little kid straight in the face, laugh and walk away.    His parents are quiet, church going folks who always seem to be looking the other way when these things happen. If they see it happen they'll make him say "sorry", that's it.    The mom has told me that she's annoyed that the school always puts her "sweet little man" in In-School-Suspension (16 different times in KINDERGARTEN).  Maybe I feel kind of passionately because my child has been hurt several times by this child but it most definitely should be the parents responsibility.    

 

I'm not saying a monetary fine is the best solution but parents should be held accountable for the actions of their children.

in this case yes, the parent needs to be involved. but this is an example of an extreme case.

 

many of the cases in many schools are not to the degree your example is.

 

in our school it only goes to the parent if its serious.

 

we have an academic crisis absolutely. but fining parents is not going to solve any issues. instead it would probably make it worse.

 

in the city where I am - most of the serious bullying problems are unfortunately in the 'bad' areas - meaning low income neighborhood. in fact one of the schools was closed down. I hardly think holding parents responsible is going to fix anything. obviously if the parents could they would. but they don't.

 

my friend works for a remedial high school. and going to the parents is definitely not the answer.

 

the sad part is there is no easy answer. and passing the buck does nothing. if anything from all the research I have read a caring teacher, counselor, another adult has been far more effective in helping these kids.

 

there is a reason why there are so many bullies. why are there so many bullies is the question to ask. not how can we make the punishment so much harder that they wont be bullies. that has never solved anything. our overcrowded prison system is an example of that.

post #17 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post
there is a reason why there are so many bullies. why are there so many bullies is the question to ask.

 

I was thinking about that a lot after Amanda Todd's suicide last year, and ended up posting this on Facebook:

 

Since Amanda Todd committed suicide, I've seen hundreds of comments about "how can people be like that?", "why do people bully others?", and "what makes people act that way?".

Let's see...we have a culture in which we watch shows like "Honey Boo Boo" and "19 and Counting" and "Jon and Kate Plus Eight" and then stand around the water cooler mocking the families...including the children, who are already being exploited by their own parents and the producers of the shows. We call them names, pick apart their parenting, and otherwise amuse ourselves at their expense.

Oh - and then there's "American Idol". What could *possibly* be more fun than watching overly optimistic dreamers make fools of themselves in public, while being savaged by the judges? We can all pretend we're kind about it, when we cry at the beauty of Susan Doyle's voice...though the expressions on the faces in the audience make it clear that most people were expecting her to fail (that's the point, isn't it?).

How about the paparazzi? Let's gawk at photos of a heartbroken little boy staring back at his mama from the window of a car. Let's invade the privacy of a married couple on vacation, and publish pictures of her breasts in the newspaper...so that people online can comment on whether she has "great tits" or not. After all, the public has the right to know!

We poke fun at people who can't sing, but give them no credit for having the guts to *try*. We mercilessly mock children whose parents are already selling their privacy and dignity on national television. We poke into, and poke *at*, every little detail of the lives of the famous. That's not even touching on the vicious level of personal attacking that goes on in politics.

And, after all this, we sit back and say, "why are our young people bullies?". Seriously?? We've got a culture that tells them every day that bullying isn't merely okay - it's admirable, profitable, and everybody does it. They're watching us...and not only when we're making pious anti-bullying comments.

(Amanda Todd's creepy pedophile stalker is a whole other issue, but sick perverts and predators are outside the scope of this rant...although not by as wide a margin as I'd like.)

 

 

I do want to mention that I don't think my comments about American Idol apply to everyone who watches it. I know people who just really enjoy the opportunity to hear new talents. I do think it's in there, though.

post #18 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post

 

there is a reason why there are so many bullies. why are there so many bullies is the question to ask. not how can we make the punishment so much harder that they wont be bullies. that has never solved anything. our overcrowded prison system is an example of that.

one could just as easily say the lack of parent involvement, the lack of standards within society greatly are contributing factors  
 
when you fail to take responsibility you are not accountable 
post #19 of 25

very true serenbat. but can we blame the parents?in the same vein as storm bride society is constantly sending the message that parents don't know how to parent. that how you think you should take care of your kids is wrong. that there's something wrong if mama wants to stay home and take care of the kids rather than put the child in daycare and go to work.

 

dunno it seems to me there is a bigger problem. a much bigger problem - whether parents or children, bullies or negligent... and fining parents is superficial. its not going to solve things. jut give parents one more reason to take it out on their children.

post #20 of 25

I'm not sure about the lack of parental involvement part of things. Some of the worst bullies I've ever known had very involved parents. Unfortunately, those parents were also very prone to "not my Johnny" thinking.

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