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Article on tetanus in Australian child - need some feedback from non-vaxers

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 

hello :-) My children are not vaccinated. I am a biochemist, did a lot of research and soul-searching and made this decision years ago. I am usually quite comfortable with it by now...but today, this article, and now I am wondering again, am I underestimating or misunderstanding something about tetanus? What I know if that stats show that there are 1 or fewer child a year that are diagnosed with tetanus in the US each year (no real test) and no child has died from the disease in the US in the last several decades. How could this child have gotten tetanus so severely? I also learned that it cannot develop in the presence of oxygen, the article states that this child had a minor scratch on his foot? what am I missing? This story is from Australia.

LINK: http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2013/06/06/3776327.htm#.Ubc3rKA1YAI.facebook

post #2 of 20

I think this article says it all:

 

Why you never need a tetanus vaccine, regardless of your age or location

post #3 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstwomantomars View Post

How could this child have gotten tetanus so severely? I also learned that it cannot develop in the presence of oxygen, the article states that this child had a minor scratch on his foot? what am I missing? This story is from Australia.


LINK: http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2013/06/06/3776327.htm#.Ubc3rKA1YAI.facebook

I don't think there is a mild version of tetanus. Based on the article it seems like the child had a fairly standard case to me. Also regarding the scratch on the foot. That may or may not be how he got it. In most people the injury has long healed and been forgotten when the symptoms of tetanus develop.

Our children are fully unvaxxed at present but tetanus is one we are likely to do when they're older because it is very rare but usually serious if you are that one person for the year.

ETA - I was wrong, there is a mild version but it is rare. About 80% of people who get tetanus will get the severe form.

ETA 2 - that might have been an Australian article but the child is from New Zealand. And it's not a new article, it did the rounds last year as well.
post #4 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by katelove View Post

I don't think there is a mild version of tetanus. Based on the article it seems like the child had a fairly standard case to me. Also regarding the scratch on the foot. That may or may not be how he got it. In most people the injury has long healed and been forgotten when the symptoms of tetanus develop.

Our children are fully unvaxxed at present but tetanus is one we are likely to do when they're older because it is very rare but usually serious if you are that one person for the year.

ETA - I was wrong, there is a mild version but it is rare. About 80% of people who get tetanus will get the severe form.

ETA 2 - that might have been an Australian article but the child is from New Zealand. And it's not a new article, it did the rounds last year as well.

 

With that argument, you would likely be up for all vaccines, HPV included.

post #5 of 20
Double post
post #6 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by katelove View Post

I don't think there is a mild version of tetanus. Based on the article it seems like the child had a fairly standard case to me. Also regarding the scratch on the foot. That may or may not be how he got it. In most people the injury has long healed and been forgotten when the symptoms of tetanus develop.

Our children are fully unvaxxed at present but tetanus is one we are likely to do when they're older because it is very rare but usually serious if you are that one person for the year.


ETA - I was wrong, there is a mild version but it is rare. About 80% of people who get tetanus will get the severe form.


ETA 2 - that might have been an Australian article but the child is from New Zealand. And it's not a new article, it did the rounds last year as well.

With that argument, you would likely be up for all vaccines, HPV included.


Why do you say that?
post #7 of 20
Quote:


Why do you say that?

 

Because anyone could be the one, so that would justify vaccinating for any disease that has the potential to kill. 

post #8 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

Quote:
Why do you say that?

Because anyone could be the one, so that would justify vaccinating for any disease that has the potential to kill. 

True. I guess I look at likelihood. Tetanus, if you get it, high likelihood of severe disease. Chicken pox, if you get it, high likelihood of mild disease. Rotavirus, if you get it, high likelihood of easily treatable symptoms. That's the way I look at it. Others, obviously see it differently and I did say in my previous post that it was why *we* were going to give tetanus vax not that I thought everyone should have it.
post #9 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by katelove View Post


True. I guess I look at likelihood. Tetanus, if you get it, high likelihood of severe disease. Chicken pox, if you get it, high likelihood of mild disease. Rotavirus, if you get it, high likelihood of easily treatable symptoms. That's the way I look at it. Others, obviously see it differently and I did say in my previous post that it was why *we* were going to give tetanus vax not that I thought everyone should have it.

 

But tetanus is extremely rare (about 30 cases in U.S. per year). So even though they are all serious cases, with a 1 in 10 fatality rate, the chance getting tetanus and dying is probably about the same or even lower than the chance of getting chickenpox and dying, as chickenpox is a much more common disease, with a 1 in 60,000 fatality rate. 

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/tetanus.html#secular

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/varicella.html#trends

post #10 of 20
I guess that may be true, statistically. I admit I haven't actually done the numbers for Australia. I think that, as individuals though, my children are more likely to get tetanus than fatal complications of chicken pox due to our particular lifestyle factors. Obviously I have no way of knowing this for sure but, like us all, I'm just making what I think are the best decisions with the information I have. None of us can ever know who will get the fatal dose and who will get the mild one, or who will have the vax reaction and who won't for that matter. Which is why we have all these forums isn't it. If we knew that, the decisions would be much easier winky.gif

Anyway, I didn't mean to derail this thread.
post #11 of 20

I looked for a post on this subject and couldn't find one, made my own then found this.  Back to the original post, the news articles are so sensationalized and purposefully vague and hostile to non-vaxers.  So are we to assume they are correct and the child got this from a minor scratch, not deep, punctured, crushed etc?  Is there source that has more detail?  

 

This is making me reconsider tetanus for my 3 children as well.

post #12 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lineymom View Post

I looked for a post on this subject and couldn't find one, made my own then found this.  Back to the original post, the news articles are so sensationalized and purposefully vague and hostile to non-vaxers.  So are we to assume they are correct and the child got this from a minor scratch, not deep, punctured, crushed etc?  Is there source that has more detail?  

 

This is making me reconsider tetanus for my 3 children as well.

 

Deep puncture wounds, like from the proverbial rusty nail, account for a bit over half of the cases in develop nations. Tetanus can occur from other things, such as ear infections, medical and dental surgery. It has also been know to happen without a history of injury. On the flip side tetanus bacilli has not been detected in wounds where there is an obvious case of tetanus.

 

From the above article I posted in my pp:

 

 

Quote:
[i]n the Official History of the War, Pathology 1923, it is stated "Tetanus bacilli have been found in 20% of war wounds although no symptoms of tetanus were present, " and "in 50% of undoubted tetanus cases the bacilli have been undiscoverable." In the same volume also appears clostridium tetani has been "cultivated from the wound of a man showing no evidence of tetanus, 882 days after it had been inflicted," and "it has been realised during the war that the tetanus bacillus or its spores may be present in vast numbers of wounds without producing tetanus."

 

 

The problems with "hippies" whose kids get tetanus

 

Tetanus

post #13 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lineymom View Post

I looked for a post on this subject and couldn't find one, made my own then found this.  Back to the original post, the news articles are so sensationalized and purposefully vague and hostile to non-vaxers.  So are we to assume they are correct and the child got this from a minor scratch, not deep, punctured, crushed etc?  Is there source that has more detail?  

 

This is making me reconsider tetanus for my 3 children as well.

I would literally figure out the danger from: 

 

accepted severe vaccine risk- most vaccines have an anaphylactic risk of  1 in a million

driving to and from the doctor, if going just for that purpose

sitting in the doctors office 

 

versus:

 

the chance of them getting tetanus.

 

I am not convinced a tetanus shot is the way to go.  As ma2two said, only about 30 people a year get tetanus in the USA (out of over 300 000 000 people).  I get most people start out vaccinated, and that might offer some protection, but still.  Most adults do not get their boosters, however, and tetanus is still extremely rare.

 

most people who get tetanus are elderly or drug users (per CDC).

post #14 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam 

 

 

 

 

The problems with "hippies" whose kids get tetanus

 

Tetanus

 

The worst thing about this case was this.  This was actually THE mildest form of tetanus any child could have got.  BUT... the child had:

 

1) A sensory processing disorder, such that even changing nappies was a problem when he was a baby.  So when he was taken to hospital there is no way any staff member is going to be able to treat a kid like that, so induced coma was the only way.

 

2) he was on a gluten free dairy free diet because of..... nutritional issues.

 

3)  The mother, a midwife, didn't think you needed to clean out wounds, either because of the child sensory processing disorder and she didn't want him to throw his toys, or... well, who knows?

 

Now, two years before that, another unvaccinated child was holed in in Starship with the worst form of tetanus.  Seriously the worst form.  But the mother, also a health professional, had a few brains.  And even though Starship predicted death, or at least 5 months ICU with the treatment possibly killing him, the mother wasn't into either bone-pointing or substandard methods.

 

She put her foot down, and made them do some of it her way.  The rest she did herself behind their backs.  The tetanus was done and dusted in two weeks from the point of correct treatment implemented, and the child was home with no residual damage a month to the day.  The two week delay was due to a nosocomial infection in the pic line, which was also treated slightly differently.

 

the difference between the two families in terms of treatement was this.

 

The 2010 family had brains, and the incentive to use their brains, and they defied all predictions.

 

The 2012 family were self-confessed hippies, who on conversion, just laid back and let the hospital do their thing, and have played ball ever since.  So be warned.  If you make stupid decisions, for stupid reasons... if you have no idea how serious a disease can be, or what to do if it comes your way, you can be hung out to dry.  The 2012 family not only allowed themselves to be manipulated by the system, they are now proud of it.

 

On the other hand, no-one heard about the 2010 family because the child's parents were well informed.  yes, they made mistakes, which is why their child got tetanus, but they were prepared to see the situation for what it was, and do something about it.  They fought the system, and in the end, won.  They were also not prepared to let the system yank their chains and use their child for publicity purposes.  Why?  Because those parents know that the system doesn't have all the answers, and that parents have the right to make choices on facts not on emotional blackmail of a 2012 tetanus child with totally irresponsible parents.. 

 

The 2010 parents proved to the system that the most fatal form of tetanus can be successfully treated, when the system was quite content to predict death.   The team at the hospital in 2010 were just left scratching their heads.  And plainly, learned nothing, because if they had, Alijah's tetanus could have been done and dusted in four days.

 

How do I know that?  Because there was another 2010 case which never got into the stats but was very similar to the 2012 one.  Those parents knew the parents of the 2010 case, and after hearing what they were doing, found a medical team prepared to do what they did in hospital for their child at home.  And that child's tetanus was gone in four days, with only the odd night twitches for about another week.

 

That's why I say,... Be wise, educate yourself and strategise....

post #15 of 20

Wow, that is interesting!

Do you have any info on the treatment methods from the 2010 case?

Thanks!

post #16 of 20
Momtezuma, thank you so much for posting. Do you know where I can read more about treating tetanus.
And does anyone know the rights of the parents when your child is hospitalized? I'm so worried that refusing treatment would mean having cps called on me.
post #17 of 20

Definitely not publicly....

 

Email me.

 

To treat tetanus you have to understand what the problems really are

 

You can glean ideas from the second half of this:  http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/resources/tetanus  Full texts are embedded where possible.

post #18 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by StellaNYC View Post

Momtezuma, thank you so much for posting. Do you know where I can read more about treating tetanus.
And does anyone know the rights of the parents when your child is hospitalized? I'm so worried that refusing treatment would mean having cps called on me.

 

See the link above.

 

If you know what tetanus is, and how to prevent it by good health, and how to do proper first aid on wounds, you shouldn't land up in hospital.  And if you do, it's not a question of refusing treatment, but getting the right treatment.

 

If you know the signs and symptoms of tetanus, you CAN get on top of it straight away, and never land up needing medical care in the first place.

 

BUT the bottom line is that tetanus has always and will always be an extremely rare disease in developed countries, and even more rare amongst people who don't eat the Standard American Dead Food.

 

The reason most people have a family tree, isn't because of a tetanus vaccine.  It's because tetanus is ubiquitous, capable of creating natural immunity - which is why we survived for so long in the first place... and which is why you have a family tree, or you wouldn't be here.  In this country it only came in for children in 1960 and adults in 1971.   There are many octogenarians, and even people over 100 years old... in this country who have never had a tetanus vaccine in their lives.... 

post #19 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post

See the link above.

If you know what tetanus is, and how to prevent it by good health, and how to do proper first aid on wounds, you shouldn't land up in hospital.  And if you do, it's not a question of refusing treatment, but getting the right treatment.

If you know the signs and symptoms of tetanus, you CAN get on top of it straight away, and never land up needing medical care in the first place.

BUT the bottom line is that tetanus has always and will always be an extremely rare disease in developed countries, and even more rare amongst people who don't eat the Standard American Dead Food.

The reason most people have a family tree, isn't because of a tetanus vaccine.  It's because tetanus is ubiquitous, capable of creating natural immunity - which is why we survived for so long in the first place... and which is why you have a family tree, or you wouldn't be here.  In this country it only came in for children in 1960 and adults in 1971.   There are many octogenarians, and even people over 100 years old... in this country who have never had a tetanus vaccine in their lives.... 



Ok, I hope I am not annoying. I have read the link before and scanned it again, thanks. What is proper first aid for tetanus prevention? By first sign of tetanus I assume you mean the tightness in neck and twitching in face or do you mean something in the wound itself?
Also, how do you get a hospital to give vitamin C and magnesium in an Iv? Do they even stock it?
post #20 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lineymom View Post


Ok, I hope I am not annoying. I have read the link before and scanned it again, thanks. What is proper first aid for tetanus prevention? By first sign of tetanus I assume you mean the tightness in neck and twitching in face or do you mean something in the wound itself?
The link provided above http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/resources/tetanus has a section called "What are the symptoms of tetanus?"  Those symptoms depend on which type of tetanus the person has.  Every person, vaccinated or not, should know what they are. 

Also, how do you get a hospital to give vitamin C and magnesium in an Iv? Do they even stock it?
Answer: You have to be prepared to fight, and argue with them with their own medical literature, so you need to have that on hand. You have to get through their egos, which are always saying, "How dare someone tell me my job"?
Do they stock it?  You'd have to ask.
?Prevention?  Make sure that the health of your child is such that you are never put in that position.  A large number of cases of tetanus in the western world these days are in fully vaccinated needle injecting drug addicts.... that tells you something, right there....
 
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