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Reasons for not vaccinating children? - Page 3  

post #41 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimordialMind View Post


He did make some very valid points, I'm almost afraid to say. Just because you hold certain beliefs doesnt make them true or the least bit grounded in reality. If you're okay with that then so be it but i find it interesting you wont even acknowledge his logical questions.

See, that's the thing about freedom of religion/beliefs...and my beliefs are true to me, and reality based to me as well--they don't have to be for someone else.....since he is biased towards my answer, NO answer I give him will satisfy.  I don't waste my time like that, i have better things to do, like be with my UNvaxed kids.  

post #42 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post

See, that's the thing about freedom of religion/beliefs...and my beliefs are true to me, and reality based to me as well--they don't have to be for someone else.....since he is biased towards my answer, NO answer I give him will satisfy.  I don't waste my time like that, i have better things to do, like be with my UNvaxed kids.  

I get that. However, some things are simply reality, not "your" reality, not "my" reality, just reality. And believing that God will make sure your kids dont get really sick because of our immune systems just doesnt hold up in reality. I think, deep down, you know that, which is why you dont want to face it nor defend it.

If God created man and man created vaccines then maybe God created vaccines? In that case maybe God is working through us to help support us through these times. I highly doubt that God created us a very long time ago and then just left us to fend for ourselves. What would be the sense in that? Its easy to try to separate anything that seems negative from the concept of God, but that isnt reality. Reality includes all shades of the spectrum. Maybe God worked through man to create vaccines and then its up to us to decide where that falls on the spectrum.
Edited by PrimordialMind - 6/16/13 at 6:23pm
post #43 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimordialMind View Post

You made some good points. There are people who dont vaccinate due to vaccine injuries. There are also some lower class people who question vaccines. But the majority still are those who are white and upper class. I'd like to think its a completely neutral decision based on effective research, but people are emotional creatures. Case in point, i cant post a controversial opinion here without getting snarky, asinine responses back. There's really no need for any of that. I can have an opinion that goes against the grain without receiving negative emotional responses just like most of you expect that as well. I read about that statistic recently and it made me think. I come from a white, upper-middle class background and all of my friends growing up and in college were as well. I know first-hand what growing up privileged often does to a person psychologically. Its rare for someone who was raised like that to feel like they are simply one of the masses and there is definitely a level of superiority that comes along with that. I wish it were simply a matter of feeling more capable of making choices; the emotional element cant be removed simply because we want to be purely logical beings. So my comment, although i know no one really wants to take a long, hard look at it, is based on the reality that many people who are privileged are bred to believe they are separate from the general population. With this separateness comes a sense of individuality, and with individuality comes a sense of being able to make all of our own decisions. It seems great on the surface, but when you look deeper you see how much of it is rooted in how they were raised. This style of raising does not better humanity, imo, only separates it.

I do think it is unfortunate that we can't have a civil discussion. I will say, though, that it's really difficult not to respond in such a way when what is coming at me totally invalidates my actual reasons for not vaxxing. Basically, I am being told that I am not vaxxing because of my mentality, not because of any valid reason. I often feel like I'm getting patted on the head and told, " oh, honey. It's because you don't know any better." Anyway, my response wasn't snarky or asinine. I try really hard not to be that way, even though I have been called stupid, emotional, and a child killer (not by you, but you see how I've become a little defensive).

There is definitely a difference in people growing up privileged and people who grew up poor. I see it in my own family all the time. I still would argue that the feeling of powerlessness is the reason most poor people go with the vaccination program. Feeling like you have control over your destiny is a good thing, but is very rare among the impoverished.
post #44 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalia View Post

I do think it is unfortunate that we can't have a civil discussion. I will say, though, that it's really difficult not to respond in such a way when what is coming at me totally invalidates my actual reasons for not vaxxing. Basically, I am being told that I am not vaxxing because of my mentality, not because of any valid reason. I often feel like I'm getting patted on the head and told, " oh, honey. It's because you don't know any better." Anyway, my response wasn't snarky or asinine. I try really hard not to be that way, even though I have been called stupid, emotional, and a child killer (not by you, but you see how I've become a little defensive).

There is definitely a difference in people growing up privileged and people who grew up poor. I see it in my own family all the time. I still would argue that the feeling of powerlessness is the reason most poor people go with the vaccination program. Feeling like you have control over your destiny is a good thing, but is very rare among the impoverished.

Dalia, you have been respectful towards me and i appreciate that. There were a few people who made snarky comments that are not helpful to the discussion. Anyway, my point about that is that we are emotional creatures, we simply cant help it. Some of us think before we speak, but we all have emotional reactions and thats okay. I find it helpful to look at where the emotional reaction comes from so we are better aware of why we are making the decisions we do.

So when it comes to vaccines, i think its useful to see how our emotional reactions are fueling our decision. Its easy to believe we are being perfectly unbiased, but that is extremely difficult to do, especially when it comes to the well-being of our children. So i gave my thoughts on the topic and shared something that i had recently thought about: the fact that white, upper middle class people are the ones opting out of routine vaccinations the most out of any class or ethnicity. There has to be an emotional element at play here, so what is it? I am not an expert, just another mom who has her own perspectives and experiences to speak from, thus, my opinion is one of many.
post #45 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimordialMind View Post

 the fact that the majority of anti-vaxxers are upper-middle class, educated white people. Who else would think they are above the general population? They are practically bred to think that way.

Wow, your racist comments are inappropriate. Yes, they are racist:

 

Quote:
Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior, or superior.

 

I wonder what you think of other races, since you seem to feel that breeding influences behavior.

post #46 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanT View Post


Truthfully, I came here to understand why people don't want to vaccinate their children and see if I can "expose", for lack of a better word, their arguments to show that their reasoning is irrational. 

 

Well, at least you are honest, albeit a little conceited sounding.  What makes you so darn sure you are right?  

 

I cannot see anyone bothering to answer, though.  Would you answer if someone stated their goal was just to try and expose your beliefs as irrational?  

 

If you really have a smidgen of interest on why people do not vax, do a forum search.  That question is asked about every 3 months or so, and often has lengthy replies.  

post #47 of 150

Hey Every one -

It's always good to have a lively discussion in the debate forum. orngbiggrin.gif

http://www.mothering.com/community/a/user-agreement

Here's a link to the User Agreement in case any one would like some refreshing.

 

I would like to remind every one that you can discuss the most volatile subjects in the world if every one stays respectful. Here at Mothering we have all kinds of races, religions and non religions posting with various things in common (or not)- making fun of people or cajoling people will not be tolerated AT ALL.

 

You can choose NOT to participate in this discussion, so if you are choosing to - please make sure it is done with the utmost respect. smile.gif

post #48 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimordialMind View Post


I get that. However, some things are simply reality, not "your" reality, not "my" reality, just reality. And believing that God will make sure your kids dont get really sick because of our immune systems just doesnt hold up in reality. I think, deep down, you know that, which is why you dont want to face it nor defend it.

If God created man and man created vaccines then maybe God created vaccines? In that case maybe God is working through us to help support us through these times. I highly doubt that God created us a very long time ago and then just left us to fend for ourselves. What would be the sense in that? Its easy to try to separate anything that seems negative from the concept of God, but that isnt reality. Reality includes all shades of the spectrum. Maybe God worked through man to create vaccines and then its up to us to decide where that falls on the spectrum.

My following the path that I believe my Creator has made for me is a very real reality to me-- has been my entire life.  Who are you to say it isn't reality for me?  Man does of his own free will.  Many people believe what they believe to cure illness, whether it's bowing down to the white coat and pharma, or hugging Mother Earth while saying a prayer/chant, and/or just true belief the body can heal itself without pharma intervention or prevention.    

post #49 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimordialMind View Post


 And believing that God will make sure your kids dont get really sick because of our immune systems just doesnt hold up in reality.

 

You are not above anyONE else to determine what is and isn't someone's reality  - as an atheist, your comment is insulting to ALL-IMO

 

there was a reason this thread was flagged

post #50 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanT View Post


Truthfully, I came here to understand why people don't want to vaccinate their children and see if I can "expose", for lack of a better word, their arguments to show that their reasoning is irrational. 

I understand I most likely won't convince anybody, but hopefully I can "plant the seed" and give some people the motivation to google counter-arguments to their claims, see what the science has to say about the matter because the science certainly isn't anti-vaccination. 

Yes but don't you realize that there have been numerous folks before you that have attempted to do just that? They come here ask the questions that you've asked and then set out to prove us wrong with the same flawed logic and science that has been presented and played out here so many many times before. I can tell you this, Of the regular posters that do not vaccinate their children that frequent these boards - you are not going to plant a seed. We have, as Mirzam said, done countless hours of research. I suppose if your goal is to "sway" lurkers who are on the fence - go ahead. Give it your best shot. You have already admitted that you are really not interested in open debate. You are interested in pointing out that all parents who make the choice to not vaccinate are irrational. I think non-vaxers are just tired of the same old attempts. we get a tad defensive that's all. So I will answer your question and leave it at that. I did my research and found that for my children and my family the risks outweigh the benefits. period.

post #51 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimordialMind View Post


Case in point, i cant post a controversial opinion here without getting snarky, asinine responses back. 

Gross overgeneralizations of an entire group of people isn't controversial, it's offensive.

post #52 of 150

PrimordialMind,
I don't see the point of having this philosophical debate without it turning into the nature of reality. Do you believe that "we" exist in a subjective or objective reality? There is no way to "prove" this... that's the nature of metaphysics. Countless of people have spent many, many, many years theorizing what is the nature of the physical realm and there are many schools of thought. 
post #53 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

Wow, your racist comments are inappropriate. Yes, they are racist:


I wonder what you think of other races, since you seem to feel that breeding influences behavior.

You are quick to point your finger, which is understandable. I dont really expect for people to understand what i'm saying since, on the surface, it does look very offensive. I didnt make up the statistic that upper class white people are the largest group to not vax. I was simply extrapolating a possible reason why that is the case. I would have done that if it were asian people, black people, women, men, working class, whatever the statistic happened to be. Thus, i have nothing against any particular group of people. If there is a group that does more or less of a particular thing, like vaxing, i will wonder what it is about that group that makes the statistic what it is. This is not racism, this is analytical work. I take from what i've seen, read and experienced to create my opinions. In the case of upper class white people, do you really believe there is no common thread that is fueling their reasons behind not vaxing? Do you truly believe they are all individuals with their own minds and no commonalities? In every group there are similarities, there are habits and conditioning that can be found amongst that group. Whether its a race, class, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, whatever the group, there are common bonds. I personally dont feel it serves anyone to try to act like they are not apart of any groups in favor of just wanting to be seen as an individual. This limits our understanding of where we've come from, who we're connected to, how we're connected, and what advantages or disadvantages we are predisposed to because of the connections you have. I dont think its good to assume you know everything about a particular group and then discriminate them because of it, that serves no purpose other than to segregate. But if you look at a particular group and seek to understand them while also not assuming each individual is exactly that way, you can help yourself and the groups you're connected to or interact with by being aware of certain tendencies/habits/traditions. So, in the case of white upper class people what is the common thread(s)? Some might say they are more educated so they feel better able to do research and come up with their conclusions. There is nothing wrong with thinking that, it is a perfectly reasonable assessment. But, it can also be seen as racist since you are generalizing about a particular class/race. Very few people would have an issue with it, though, because it doesnt sound offensive. My statement about white upper class people being raised to feel superior to other classes and races doesnt sit as well as the statement about education. No one wants to look at a common thread that doesnt look at a group favorably. We want to label it as "racist" and "offensive" and not give it a second thought. If you want to do that then go ahead, i wont be surprised. But i am simply pointing out a common thread that i have seen time and time again. I am not lying nor making it seem more prevalent than it is. It is not something i can really prove, at least not in this thread, but i included it to make people think, if they so choose. When we really take a look at common threads that maybe we dont want to admit in public, but we see them, they are there, it makes us more aware and better able to relate and also understand where our own decisions are coming from if we are apart of that group.
post #54 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimordialMind View Post


You are quick to point your finger, which is understandable. I dont really expect for people to understand what i'm saying since, on the surface, it does look very offensive. I didnt make up the statistic that upper class white people are the largest group to not vax. I was simply extrapolating a possible reason why that is the case. I would have done that if it were asian people, black people, women, men, working class, whatever the statistic happened to be. Thus, i have nothing against any particular group of people. If there is a group that does more or less of a particular thing, like vaxing, i will wonder what it is about that group that makes the statistic what it is. This is not racism, this is analytical work. I take from what i've seen, read and experienced to create my opinions. In the case of upper class white people, do you really believe there is no common thread that is fueling their reasons behind not vaxing? 

 

 

 

Absolutely I do.  They have the time and resources to research vaccines.  They have been raised (painting with broad strokes here) to be willing to politely question authority, and they do not assume anyone is above them - particulalry when it comes to their children.

 

OTOH, most poor people I have known through the ages are not typcially willing to buck the system.  They are often not even aware they can buck it.  I am very much in agreement with Dalia here.  

 

I think the goal should be to raise everyone to the level of empowerment some parents feel (those who understand there is choice in the world) not say it is a bad thing, which seems to be what you are saying?????

post #55 of 150
I think the moderator was trying to tell us that we can't debate religious belief. It's against forum policy, which I think is a good thing.

I do want to say that Steve Jobs would have died nomatter what he did. I think the alternative medicine probably prolonged his life, but he had pancreatic cancer. Extremely rare to survive that.
post #56 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalia View Post

I think the moderator was trying to tell us that we can't debate religious belief. It's against forum policy, which I think is a good thing.

I do want to say that Steve Jobs would have died nomatter what he did. I think the alternative medicine probably prolonged his life, but he had pancreatic cancer. Extremely rare to survive that.

This.

 

As for this:

 

Quote:
His immune system needed extra support, the kind of support he probably would have gotten with chemotherapy. Thus, he died. Maybe he shouldnt have been so quick to judge mainstream medicine.

 

Ummm, chemo devastates the immune system because it kills all cells, not just cancer cells. This is why cancer patients on chemotherapy are considered immune compromised and why they shouldn't come into contact with anyone recently vaccinated with live viruses, ie chicken pox.

post #57 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamiro View Post

Hey Every one -

It's always good to have a lively discussion in the debate forum. orngbiggrin.gif

http://www.mothering.com/community/a/user-agreement

Here's a link to the User Agreement in case any one would like some refreshing.

 

I would like to remind every one that you can discuss the most volatile subjects in the world if every one stays respectful. Here at Mothering we have all kinds of races, religions and non religions posting with various things in common (or not)- making fun of people or cajoling people will not be tolerated AT ALL.

 

You can choose NOT to participate in this discussion, so if you are choosing to - please make sure it is done with the utmost respect. smile.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimordialMind View Post



 To believe otherwise is to ignore the reality that maybe sometimes the body needs extra assistance and homepathics and herbs or whatever other natural treatment isnt going to suffice. 

 

your superior belief system/religion I find highly insulting, and totally inappropriate in this section, you are making fun of other's beliefs 
post #58 of 150
No, I am not making fun and i also gave an example of someone we all know (Steve Jobs) to prove my point. I am a big supporter of natural or alternative medicine, but i'm also aware it has limitations, as does mainstream medicine. A combination of both is typically the best, especially if the body is having a difficult time healing. I was pointing out that her thinking is flawed because there are numerous real-life examples that show that way of thinking is dangerous. If we're all just supposed to respect each other's beliefs then how will we learn anything new?
post #59 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

This.

As for this:


Ummm, chemo devastates the immune system because it kills all cells, not just cancer cells. This is why cancer patients on chemotherapy are considered immune compromised and why they shouldn't come into contact with anyone recently vaccinated with live viruses, ie chicken pox.

yes, thats true, but the doctors who assessed Steve Jobs' cancer gave a very high probability that chemo would have eliminated the cancer based on what stage it was at, how spread out it was, etc. Many people have had success with chemo. I understand its an aggressive treatment, but maybe thats where alternative medicine helps--you can use gentler remedies to help rebuild blood cells and the immune system.

Actually, if he had had surgery promptly he may not have even needed the chemo: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/10/05/steve-jobs-dies-his-unorthodox-treatment-for-neuroendocrine-cancer.html
Edited by PrimordialMind - 6/17/13 at 5:12pm
post #60 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimordialMind View Post


yes, thats true, but the doctors who assessed Steve Jobs' cancer gave a very high probability that chemo would have eliminated the cancer based on what stage it was at, how spread out it was, etc. Many people have had success with chemo. I understand its an aggressive treatment, but maybe thats where alternative medicine helps--you can use gentler remedies to help rebuild blood cells and the immune system.

 

You said chemotherapy was an "immune support" and it is quite the opposite, it is an "immune devastator".

 

Quote:

His immune system needed extra support, the kind of support he probably would have gotten with chemotherapy

 

I am not going to get into this any further with you because it just isn't worth it. 

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