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Reasons for not vaccinating children? - Page 4  

post #61 of 150

To add some personal experience to the discussion of economics/class influencing vaccination decisions . . . sorry it's long!

Our 1st child came to us through guardianship and then adoption.  She had county/state/fed aid for childcare and health insurance since she was considered a "family of one" with no income.  It was very interesting to witness how dd1 and I were treated when I took her to wellness visits.  I can say that is was very different from my 2nd dd.  When I took my 1st dd in for wellness check-ups they seemed quite taken by surprise when I questioned things.  

For example:  why were they ordering tests to see if lead was in her bloodstream?  "It's just routine screening m'am."  They do that for every child who is poor . . . it's assumed that if you are poor you are likely to have lead exposure.  It doesn't matter that 75% of the houses around here were built after the routine use of lead in house paint.  There were no questions about her history - where had she lived, in older homes?  Her bio mom was young but not living in a ghetto. 

I was not even asked about vaccine schedules.  We had a kindergarten physical while I was researching chicken pox (the vaccine was required for starting school).  I had wanted to do more research and had not scheduled any shots for that visit.  Nonetheless, in came an MA with a syringe filled with the chicken pox vaccine - assuming I would have that shot done during the visit.  When I asked what that was and then said I was still undecided about that vaccine there was an attempt to "just get it done" since I was there and the syringe was drawn.  I had to stay firm (always polite) and she finally backed off.  But, wow, that never has happened to me since dd1 got out of the county health program. 

The paperwork moved so fast that I had to be very quick at reading and making decisions on the fly.  If I didn't already have my very stubborn streak of not doing anything that could have potential to do harm without research and at least sleeping on the decision;  and if I didn't have a decent knowledge of anatomy and physiology I would have been rolled along just like so many other parents in those waiting rooms.  If I had any trouble with reading quickly and having good reading comprehension . . . whoa.  English as a 2nd language?  Double whoa.  

I grew up very poor but have since moved into the middle class.  I can see how economics does influence a sense of empowerment and offer a person the chance to feel like they can make their own decisions, not swallow a CDC schedule hook-line-and-sinker.  My children's doctor has a very different approach with me and my daughters than those docs I interacted with the first couple years of caring for dd1 through guardianship.  It's not just the doctor, but the whole office staff and whole experience of doing healthcare through Kaiser rather than doing healthcare through impacted community clinics.

post #62 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimordialMind View Post

No, I am not making fun and i also gave an example of someone we all know (Steve Jobs) to prove my point. I am a big supporter of natural or alternative medicine, but i'm also aware it has limitations, as does mainstream medicine. A combination of both is typically the best, especially if the body is having a difficult time healing. I was pointing out that her thinking is flawed because there are numerous real-life examples that show that way of thinking is dangerous. If we're all just supposed to respect each other's beliefs then how will we learn anything new?

you quoted another poster (and the poster was not Steve Jobs)

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post

My following the path that I believe my Creator has made for me is a very real reality to me-- has been my entire life.  Who are you to say it isn't reality for me?  Man does of his own free will.  Many people believe what they believe to cure illness, whether it's bowing down to the white coat and pharma, or hugging Mother Earth while saying a prayer/chant, and/or just true belief the body can heal itself without pharma intervention or prevention.    

You have every right to believe whatever you want to believe, but that doesnt make whatever it is true. Some things cannt be proven, like who or what God is or if God even exists, so there is no harm in believing what you like when it comes to that. However, some things are evident in reality, so to believe otherwise is to go against reality. In the case of believing God gave you a capable immune system that will heal any illness you happen to have, this is not taking into account the many people who didnt have "pharma intervention or prevention" who have died (surely you are aware of this). While the illness was in their body, their immune system was fighting very hard to rid their bodies of the foreign properties, but sometimes the immune system gets too tired or overrun with the illness. This is certainly not God's fault nor does it show a lack of belief in God and what He/She/It does, it is simply the reality of our biological makeup. To believe otherwise is to ignore the reality that maybe sometimes the body needs extra assistance and homepathics and herbs or whatever other natural treatment isnt going to suffice. Take a look at Steve Jobs--instead of receiving chemotherapy for his cancer he chose to use alternative medicine. His immune system needed extra support, the kind of support he probably would have gotten with chemotherapy. Thus, he died. Maybe he shouldnt have been so quick to judge mainstream medicine.

post #63 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

You said chemotherapy was an "immune support" and it is quite the opposite, it is an "immune devastator".


I am not going to get into this any further with you because it just isn't worth it. 

So you're saying because it doesnt outright boost the immune system that all it does is harm? Yes, it kills all cells but it does so in order to rid the body of cancer. That is what i meant when i said it helps build the immune system. How the heck is the immune system going to get anywhere if it has to constantly fight against spreading cancer? The body can regenerate but it has a much harder time doing that if it has to battle against something that is constantly trying to take over and kill it. It seems logical that if the probability is high using chemo can help prolong or save a life.
Edited by PrimordialMind - 6/18/13 at 12:28am
post #64 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

you quoted another poster (and the poster was not Steve Jobs)

Umm, yeah i know the poster isnt Steve Jobs (he's dead ya know). Are you trying to say that learning from other people's mistakes isnt useful? That we should all start from scratch when we form our beliefs?
post #65 of 150
I don't appreciate being called narrow-minded which I believe is a personal attack and therefore against the UA. But yes, all chemotherapy does is harm because that is what it is designed to do.

 

Anyway, I will repeat what I typed above, I am not going to get into this with because your understanding of health and healing bears no resemblance to mine, and therefore cannot be part of your reality.

post #66 of 150

All right debaters, I've received a couple complaints now about this turning in to a religious debate. People are becoming offended, and quite frankly - it's just not good for debate as a whole.

 

I really don't wish to shut down communication even when things become heated. I believe we are all adults and we should let the conversation flow as freely as possible.

If you can't take the heat... af.gif

 

With that in mind -

The OP asked for reasons for not vaccinating.

Religious belief is absolutely 100% a reason, as is - no questioning.

As interesting as it may be for those to question others on that belief - I see that people are getting offended, posts are getting flagged, and we need to drop the conversation on that matter.

 

Any post after this one that refers to the religious debating will asked to be edited and held for moderation until editing has taken place.


Please be respectful of each other as always, and try to wear thick skin while in here.

 

Take care every one.

post #67 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post


Absolutely I do.  They have the time and resources to research vaccines.  They have been raised (painting with broad strokes here) to be willing to politely question authority, and they do not assume anyone is above them - particulalry when it comes to their children.

OTOH, most poor people I have known through the ages are not typcially willing to buck the system.  They are often not even aware they can buck it.  I am very much in agreement with Dalia here.  

I think the goal should be to raise everyone to the level of empowerment some parents feel (those who understand there is choice in the world) not say it is a bad thing, which seems to be what you are saying?????

Yeah, they dont assume anyone is above them, which could be either good or bad depending on the topic. I dont feel its good to assume that as long as we do our own careful research this means we are free to make our own decisions. I see that as self-inflated and not taking into account the fact that there ARE experts who have been studying and working with vaccines for many years. To assume that we will know just as much if not more than these people simply by doing some research is self-inflated.

Also, feeling empowered is one thing, but to think that you can become an expert simply because you know how to do basic research is potentially harmful. This was part of my original point--that white upper class people often have the mentality of being apart from the general population precisely because they often dont see anyone as being above them. We all have superiors and i consider those whose job is to assess the safety and effectiveness of vaccines to be the people i respect. That doesnt mean i dont do any research, but i value their opinion the highest.

Also, i agree that its unfortunate that poor people dont know that they can research options for their children or where to look. There's also alot of pressure to conform, like the example a PP gave about her adopted child. Its sad a lot of doctors and nurses dont encourage parents to look into vaccines and often just administer them without explaining anything about them. That is a real problem.
post #68 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimordialMind View Post

No, I am not making fun and i also gave an example of someone we all know (Steve Jobs) to prove my point. I am a big supporter of natural or alternative medicine, but i'm also aware it has limitations, as does mainstream medicine. A combination of both is typically the best, especially if the body is having a difficult time healing. I was pointing out that her thinking is flawed because there are numerous real-life examples that show that way of thinking is dangerous. If we're all just supposed to respect each other's beliefs then how will we learn anything new?

Of course alternative medicine has its limitations.  If I am ever in a car accident, please call 911 or drive me to the hospital.   Surgeons saved my youngest life  - no joke, she was born with a birth defect that is incompatible with life.

 

OTOH, I think mainstream medicine has done a lousy job with some things - supporting natural low risk childbirth is one.  Certain chronic conditions are another.  

 

The question for this forum is whether or not mainstream medicine has it right in terms of vaccination.  I do not think they do. I think they paint with far too broad strokes and are negligent in their duty to ensure proper safety testing.  

post #69 of 150
Quote:
I dont feel its good to assume that as long as we do our own careful research this means we are free to make our own decisions.

 

Are you saying that you don't believe that vaccination is a decision we should be freely able to make on our own? I hope you are not talking government coercion here.

post #70 of 150

I've sent Personal Messages out to those asking for edits on flagged posts.

I have not asked prior posts dealing with religious debate to be edited.

 

 

If you (general you) on your own would like to review your previous posts and edit religious debate out for the sake of new people reading - please feel free to do so. It would totally be appreciated.

 

Please remember that I'm a member at Mothering just like you, and I'm just trying to help keep peace while letting conversations flow.

If an issue comes up that you can handle diplomatically - choose that route first.

Keep in mind that UA breaking aside - The debate board is a much more lively place to hang out when you're not preaching at the choir.

So, have fun!

Any questions, comments, ideas feel free to PM me. lurk.gif

post #71 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimordialMind View Post

….I dont feel its good to assume that as long as we do our own careful research this means we are free to make our own decisions. I see that as self-inflated and not taking into account the fact that there ARE experts who have been studying and working with vaccines for many years. To assume that we will know just as much if not more than these people simply by doing some research is self-inflated.

 

I completely disagree with the bolded.

 

I always (or almost always) listen to experts.  I do not always take their advice.  I sincerely hope this does not become a "you should always follow the doctors advice" type thread.  It goes against the idea of informed choice and consent.  I believe informed choice, consent and being pro-active about your health is more likely to lead to health than compliance, but to each their own.  

post #72 of 150
When we do research, we are researching expert opinions from both sides. What else would we be looking at? A crystal ball? :-P
post #73 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimordialMind View Post

I dont feel its good to assume that as long as we do our own careful research this means we are free to make our own decisions. 

 

By that, it sounds like you disagree with informed consent. Many people do disagree with it, including doctors. But most won't admit it so freely.

post #74 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

Anyway, I will repeat what I typed above, I am not going to get into this with because your understanding of health and healing bears no resemblance to mine, and therefore cannot be part of your reality.

I'm sensing some hostility and i'm not sure why. Do you not appreciate being challenged or do you think i'm too closed-minded to anything you have to say? I assure you i am very open-minded, especially when someone gives me a clear, solid argument.

You have forced me to edit my last post because i said you seem narrow-minded. I dont really mind doing that but why is that the only thing you've gotten from what i said? All you are willing to do is complain and then just say "you're wrong" and "thats not your reality"? Everything that is real can be properly communicated so someone else understands. If you cant or are unwilling to do that then why are you engaging with me? Just for fun?

Seriously, you have not given more than a surface reason as to why chemo only does harm and no good. If its so harmful then why are so many people helped by it?
Edited by PrimordialMind - 6/18/13 at 12:32am
post #75 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalia View Post

When we do research, we are researching expert opinions from both sides. What else would we be looking at? A crystal ball? :-P

Haha, very funny. The concept of "expert" is a subjective term, unfortunately. For example, some people would consider Dr. Sears to be an expert on vaccines. I personally don't. There are other examples as well that are questionable "expert" sources. If you dont have the proper understanding of who to trust, its very easy to be led in a direction that suits you.
post #76 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I completely disagree with the bolded.

I always (or almost always) listen to experts.  I do not always take their advice.  I sincerely hope this does not become a "you should always follow the doctors advice" type thread.  It goes against the idea of informed choice and consent.  I believe informed choice, consent and being pro-active about your health is more likely to lead to health than compliance, but to each their own.  

Its easy to nitpick at my words, take them out of context and then argue a point that didnt actually need to be argued. I also said its good to do research. I know thats probably a head-scratcher so i'll explain a little better. Doing your own research is only beneficial if we dont neglect the fact that we are not an expert on the topic. We can pour over articles, books and other literature but there needs to be respect for the opinions of experts. A lot of the literature is not actual opinions but statistics, anecdotal stories, studies, things of that nature. We can come up with our own conclusions, but its also good to have respect for the opinions of experts. This is just my opinion, one of many, so why everyone is so interested in mine i dont know. I'd like to hear other people's opinions too.
post #77 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamiro View Post

All right debaters, I've received a couple complaints now about this turning in to a religious debate. People are becoming offended, and quite frankly - it's just not good for debate as a whole.

 

I really don't wish to shut down communication even when things become heated. I believe we are all adults and we should let the conversation flow as freely as possible.

If you can't take the heat... af.gif

 

With that in mind -

The OP asked for reasons for not vaccinating.

Religious belief is absolutely 100% a reason, as is - no questioning.

As interesting as it may be for those to question others on that belief - I see that people are getting offended, posts are getting flagged, and we need to drop the conversation on that matter.

 

Any post after this one that refers to the religious debating will asked to be edited and held for moderation until editing has taken place.


Please be respectful of each other as always, and try to wear thick skin while in here.

 

Take care every one.

thank you!!!!!

post #78 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimordialMind View Post


Its easy to nitpick at my words, take them out of context and then argue a point that didnt actually need to be argued. I also said its good to do research. I know thats probably a head-scratcher so i'll explain a little better. Doing your own research is only beneficial if we dont neglect the fact that we are not an expert on the topic. We can pour over articles, books and other literature but there needs to be respect for the opinions of experts. A lot of the literature is not actual opinions but statistics, anecdotal stories, studies, things of that nature. We can come up with our own conclusions, but its also good to have respect for the opinions of experts. This is just my opinion, one of many, so why everyone is so interested in mine i dont know. I'd like to hear other people's opinions too.

I did not take your words out of context or nitpick.

 

If you mean listen to experts - then fine.  I have no issue with listening to experts, although I do not think listening to experts should be mandated.  I have been somewhat disappointed in my conversation with hcp on vaccines, but that is neither here nor there.  

 

If by listen you really mean comply with what they say - then we part ways.  I do not typically comply with what experts say on health care matters because they are experts (emergencies aside).  I research things and make my decisions as I am the one who will have to live with the consequences.  I do not pass this responsibility on to someone else.  

 

In any event, I am done on the subject of compliance.  If you are not, here is a (long and passionate!) thread on the topic:

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1368637/why-do-people-follow-medical-authorities

 

As per the bolded, people are talking to you for two reasons.

 

1.  You offended some people

2.  You are one of two vaxxers or vax defenders on this thread - and the other seems to have bailed.  It is a debate thread, so some of this is natural, but that does not make it  an easy spot to be in.


Edited by kathymuggle - 6/18/13 at 6:28am
post #79 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimordialMind View Post

 
Seriously, you have not given more than a surface reason as to why chemo only does harm and no good. If its so harmful then why are so many people helped by it?

 

Chemotherapy is off topic for this board, and as I said, I have no interest in having a discussion on the subject with you. However, has chemomtherapy really helped people? I am not about to write you a thesis on the cancer industry, many have done a much better job than ever could. If you are sincere in your interest, there is plenty of information out there available to those that question. I will give you this, but that is pretty much all, I have direct experience in my life of a loved one healing completly from cancer without the aid of chemo, radiation or surgery; and a friend who was treated for the same type of cancer, with all three of standard medical treatments, dying.

 

 

A quote for you:

 

post #80 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimordialMind View Post

No, I am not making fun and i also gave an example of someone we all know (Steve Jobs) to prove my point. I am a big supporter of natural or alternative medicine, but i'm also aware it has limitations, as does mainstream medicine. A combination of both is typically the best, especially if the body is having a difficult time healing. I was pointing out that her thinking is flawed because there are numerous real-life examples that show that way of thinking is dangerous. If we're all just supposed to respect each other's beliefs then how will we learn anything new?

seriously?  Do you really believe that you cannot learn anything new while respecting other's beliefs?? 

Here is a newsflash - you CAN be respectful of others beliefs and still be open minded and learn new things. In fact I think it's when the respect breaks down that one ceases to be able to learn. 

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