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hey - moms of older kids - do you think new moms today have it easier or harder than you did wrt...

post #1 of 33
Thread Starter 

My story:

 

My oldest is 17.  When I first looked into vaccine he was around 1 year (he was vaxxed at a year).  I started to look into vaccine because there had been a change in the schedule (added a second MMR) and I wanted to know why. I also wanted to know how common measles, mumps and rubella were.  The public health nurse who administered the vaccines could not answer.  My doctor could not answer.  I called the Canadian Pediatric Society and all they could say was the vaccine was safer than the disease, they could not give me prevalence figures.  

 

That was sort of that.  I had tried reasonably hard to get answers to basic questions, and health care providers had failed.  I decided I was not going to vax until I could get the answers, as I could not weigh the risks/benefits.  I then went about my life and did not give vaccines much thought. Oh, I would read articles and books occasionally, but nothing major.   I did not have the Internet, I am not sure it even existed in 1997.  I had another child in 98 - same deal.  Last baby in 2002 - the Internet did exist, but I was pretty comfortable with non-vaxxing by then.  I still got most info from print, and was on dial up until about 2007.  

 

In some ways I think I had it easier.  

 

The lack of Internet meant I couldn't research until my eyes glazed over.  The lack of Internet meant there really wasn't this hatred of non-vaxxers that we see now - there wasn't a medium in which to polarize and build people up into a nasty frenzy.  

 

I think parents now have more of an opportunity to make an informed choice, research laws, be activists if they choose - but I don't think they have it easier.  

post #2 of 33

I think being able to get info now is so much easier for parents who question it, but also leads to unnecessary fearmongering and needless scaring of parents, esp if they are reading msm media bs....and drs are much more apt to spout that bs too.  I also think drs are much more aware of how some parents can actually read and think for themselves, and that too, is a threat, which is combatted by msm spouting off more bs...and when a parent actually questions the research practices used, their questions are met with scoffing, ridicule, and dumbing-down.  You couldn't possibly understand all the scientific lingo used  or, I went to medical school for 7 yrs, i know everything--type of attitude.  

I think making a decision was easier in the past because there was not all the hype and fearmongering going on within the web, and a person actually had to have the library get the publications to review the research that was actually used, instead of sugar coated bs spouted off by drs and fearmongering websites or pharma funded sales propaganda.   The sales pitch nowadays is totally differnt than that of yesteryear too...there wasn't any back then, because the FCC didn't allow it.  Regs were lifted, and BAM! now we have all kinds of pharma ads.

post #3 of 33

I think we had it easier too. Definitely less fearmongering when my kids were little. Living where I do, choosing not to vaccinate was not considered aberrant, still isn't. It does appear that the climate against vax refusers is becoming more and more agressive and the attemps to make exemptions harder and harder to come by. I am grateful my children are older.

post #4 of 33

My oldest son was born Jan of 2000 and I think even back then it was easier to just say no and there wasn't any of the "you know all that crap on the Internet isn't true".

 

I guess they thought if you made that decision it was OK.... not sure.

 

Now I have an 8 year old and could sense a swing in attitude to my 2 year old it feels kinda nuts. Everywhere I go, the fight against it seems harder, but I also know more people who are choosing this path than ever before.

 

I still think that I would be making the same decision now as then but it didn't seem like such a big deal back in the day! People also weren't wishing my children death and dismemberment as punishment for my "selfish ways".

post #5 of 33

That depends which position you are in.

 

Our first child was born in 1981, and the second in 84.  All the research I did was done by going to a medical library, one hour away, painstakingly going through the medicus cumulus indexus, ordering articles..., and when not there, writing snail mail letters all around the world to places like NAPSAC in the USA which had some brilliant information, and Dr Robert Mendelsohn, who became a close friend, and Dr Tony Morris.  There were many people doing this sort of thing in the USA, but not where I live.

 

There was no-one to talk to here, and I read and researched until not only my eyes glazed over but I got out to people in this country, what information I had.  That started a deluge of requests for both information and help, which tossed me into two worlds:

 

1) that of information finding and helping parents get justice

 

2) that of being public enemy number one for the medical profession.

 

A lot was written about what I was doing - some of it supportive, but much of it sneering distain. 

 

The problem is when you put yourself into the public eye, and you're lonely to boot.... the pressure is much greater.  If you child gets sick and dies from something for which there is a vaccine, you're dead meat.

 

I've found it much easier since I went on-line in 2000, and particularly since I no longer have to go to the medical library to research.  It's also been easier to target who to give help to as well.

 

When I set up my personal website. www.beyondconformity.org.nz I made a decision from the start, which was that there would be no comment facility.  That stops all the septic dog-pilers from fawning over each other, while hurling abuse.  If I have something to say, I say it and don't give a rip what anyone thinks.  The reason for that is that my research is meticulous and the proof is in each blog. 

 

The other part of the OP's question is whether it's harder for the ordinary new mother.

 

That depends on the person. 

 

If the person is a dead fish floating down a river, then no, it's not hard until their child pays the price. 

 

If the person is a person swimming against the tide, who has done the research properly, nothing will matter to them.  They will have very strong convictions, and be armed with credible information.

 

The group who it is difficult for, is the person who doesn't want to vaccinate, but is ruled by their emotions, doesn't realise how little they know, and can have their convictions easily challenged because they haven't done due diligence at the beginning and kept their mouths shut, until they know what they are talking about. 

 

So those people don't appear to realise how much they need to know, not just about vaccines, but about the diseases AND about nutrition etc.

 

These are the people who need help to realise that they need to know more than they do. The problem is how to do that tactfully. But they shouldn't be spoonfed, even though that's usually what is wanted.  "Tell me the answer..." ... they need to see that it's important to "catch their own fish" and this is where difficulties can arise, particularly if people feel that the text-message, help-desk "entitlement" principle applies = "you know, you tell, it's my right, now".

 

So now I will use the word "you" generically.

 

The problem with that paradigm, is that when things get tough, and you land up with a child with serious issues and no-one to tell you what you feel entitled to know, your defences can be shattered, because you don't know how to "fish" yourself.

 

I know what that feels like becuase way back in 1981, when all alone, I had to teach myself to fish, or I would have sunk.

 

But 1981 wasn't the era of text messages, or an "entitlement" mindset.  Most people then knew how to use a Dewey system, and how to at least find ifnromation from the resources available.

 

So in that sense, it's hard to compare today, with 33 years ago.

 

Not only is  the technology radically different, but how people think is different and how people respond is different.

 

When I first started reading at Mothering 13 years ago, the calibre of discussion was very different as well. 

 

There was only one vaccination board, and people really wanted to get into the nitty gritty of issues.  I only had one interest which was vaccines, but then you were "encouraged" to participate in other forums as well, which I tried, to do, but couldn't do.  I don't "do" fluff, and to me other issues were a waste of my time, which has always been limited.

 

Yes, there was some flamethrowing here at the start in 2000, but that was more likely on other forums than vaccinations.  As time went on though, the flamethrowers arrived here in force, which presented problems since my natural tendency is to fight fire with fire :)  and I have foot in mouth disease blush.gif

 

I hardly every come here now, simply because  Mothering is now so large, and it's been hard to see where the people are, who want to learn to fish rather than  flamethrow or fling fluff.  I still haven't perfected the control of the FIM disease.

 

I've always believed that if you really want answers, you WILL find them, regardless of the difficulties others around you attempt throw at you....

 

typical Tuatara rant this :)


Edited by Momtezuma Tuatara - 6/28/13 at 3:02pm
post #6 of 33

MT, I have always loved your rants. joy.gif Reading the Vaccination board when I joined in 2002 with two unvaxed young ones, I learned so much in a very short space of time. What residue fear I might have had around vaccines, quickly dissolved, and I arrived at the place of peace with my choice to keep my children vaccine-free. I am so grateful for the wisdom imparted by you and the other independent thinkers who posted back then.

 

The pro-vax lobby has really upped the anty, so I think it is much harder for young parents now to get to the place of peace with their decision. Parents today are bombarded with vaxganda to a far greater degree than us oldies were. You can't scare me with measles. Had it, and survived, thankyouverymuch.

post #7 of 33

I wonder why this is though.  These young mothers are much more au fait with IT than I am.

 

Is it because they are captured by addictive facile facebook, and spend all their time posting photos of the toast they are about to eat?

 

I guess I'm a dinosaur and don't understand why it is that young parents today feel the need to toe the party line, or dissolve in a blob like a jelly without enough gelatine.

 

Where I live, the only increase in vaxganda is phone text messaging, facebook, twitter and other stuff which to me is crap... but fits in perhaps with the modern mindset?

 

There has been no increase in newpapers or magazines though.  That's about the same.  i can't comment on TV because I don't have it dizzy.gif

 

So I find myself in a position perhaps where there is a .................................. generation gap.

 

I just don't get why young mothers have difficulty finding the backbone you and I had to get via hard slog;....

 

Call me stupid, because perhaps I am.

post #8 of 33

I do think it is in part due to modern social media. Yes, there is so much more information easily available today, and people are waking up. The mainstream media really has become irrelevant, and to those who see, it clearly a vehicle for the dissemination of propaganda in order for the elite to control the general population. It is the alternative media that has the most influence now, and the medium to which Bill Gates and his dirty tricks brigade have turned to to try and discredit the voices of dissent. (Very smart of you not to allow comments on your blog, we don't need any more 25 year old white males putting in their two penneth.)

 

I am not sure if it really is a generation gap, but that the fearmongering has being going on so long now that people really believe it. It is harder to pull the wool over our eyes, because we have experienced something different. My eldest is now 23, and having grown up with virtually no tv, and under my care,  thankfully she has not been programmed to fear disease.

 

[OT - is Ian still playing cricket? My DS, now 13, is a soccer player, and hoping to be a pro one day. He was has been accepted to our local pro club's academy, and was recently in Costa Rica for a tournament with the club, proudly unvaxed. The club requires the kids to be utd according to the CDC's schedule, but gladly accepts our exemption. It's a take it of leave him thing!]

post #9 of 33

Perhaps it's also that it's permeated the state education system to such a huge degree... but again, that's something we avoided by homeschooling from start to finish....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

[OT - is Ian still playing cricket? My DS, now 13, is a soccer player, and hoping to be a pro one day. He was has been accepted to our local pro club's academy, and was recently in Costa Rica for a tournament with the club, proudly unvaxed. The club requires the kids to be utd according to the CDC's schedule, but gladly accepts our exemption. It's a take it of leave him thing!]

 

He not only plays for NZ http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/23063386 and http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/spcri/1723176529-cricket--black-caps-make-impact-on-county-scene

 

 

He also plays for Nottinghamshire http://www.espncricinfo.com/county-cricket-2013/content/story/645887.html

post #10 of 33

You must be a very proud mama! 

post #11 of 33
I'm technically not invited to participate because I only have littles. Sheepish.gif I did want to chime in with a devil's-advocate take on parenting in the Information Age.

1. It's harder for doctors to lie to you. No more of this "I recently saw a child die of German measles" when all of that data is at our fingertips. No more "it's perfectly safe" when VAERS and VICP records are just a couple of clicks away.

2. It's harder for school officials to lie to you. No more withholding information about exemption rights when sites like NVICs make statutes readily available. No more telling you that you have to belong to a specific church or get a pastor's signature when you can easily find the truthful information.

3. Public policy-making is more transparent. I think it would have been a LOT harder to sneak in those Hep B requirements had the Internet and social media been better developed in 1999. Contrast that with today, when consumer pressure put a halt to Merck's state-by-state lobbying for Guardasil mandates. I really do think that Internet access helped that activism take place.

I guess that paraphrases what Kathy said, but I do find it *easier* not to be worrying constantly if I can trust what people are telling me. It's reassuring to know that I can cross-reference anything that raises an eyebrow.

Those are the three things I can immediately think of.

I can think of one thing that's *probably* harder, but you moms with more life experience can weigh in on this. The unfettered deregulation and marketing power of drug companies means more and more and more ways to crowd up the Schedule with more and more and more vaccines. Don't get me wrong. It's been building up since they gained liability protection in '86. But today, it's gotten out of control.

Now Merck can develop a vaccine against nose-picking, have its own employees conduct pseudo-scientific safety testing, and send its puppets to ACIP to get it on the Schedule. Then the T.V. commercials and market-disguised-as-journalism begin in full force. Parents get to hear about how nose-picking kills 36,000 Americans annually and declining the vaccine is mean and nasty and selfish. Then the lines about how parents today don't understand how dangerous nose-picking was in 1953. Then a "news story" about an unvaccinated kid in Neverland who shoved his finger too far up his nostril and convulsed and died instantly. (Boy oh boy. His parents sure learned THEIR lessons. From now on, they'll get ALL of the vaccines without any questions). Then the mandates, which health departments readily enact to protect their almighty federal enticements. Then the state health departments scolding parents and forcing them to explain their refusals so that the "experts" can "counter misinformation" with the appropriate government and industry-sponsored sales-pitch talking points. And then, and then, and then..... I've watched it all unfold too many times!

Back in the day,a serious disease was met with a serious vaccine. Now it's fat freakin' Pharma free-for-all. eyesroll.gif THAT is what makes it harder to be a parent in 2013.
Edited by Turquesa - 6/28/13 at 5:15pm
post #12 of 33

I am an OLDer and now a new mom and I see things are now night and day different!

 

I find now, "new" (be it young or old) but 1st timers, are like they have had their brain removed - I use to remember (and I have talked about this to other OLDer mom friends who say the same things) we didn't (back in the day) just drink the kook-aid, we asked questions (lots of them!!) and now that seems to be a lost art, and I just don't get it!

 

We use to question our parents and our GRANDPARENTS, we talked and got answers from our Dr.s we didn't just take it all at point blank value - and I see so many when you ask them a question (not just vac) and they seems so brainwashed (it really is the only word I can think to describe it) it's so much - well the Dr says.... or "they" say X, Y, Z it MUST be - I do feel media

scars play a huge factor but I also think we (as a society) like having our thinking done for us, makes life easier for so many. I think the dumbing down of society play into the scare factor and thus if they say you need this shot - you rush out and get it- no questions asked.

post #13 of 33
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

 

We use to question our parents and our GRANDPARENTS, we talked and got answers from our Dr.s we didn't just take it all at point blank value - and I see so many when you ask them a question (not just vac) and they seems so brainwashed (it really is the only word I can think to describe it) it's so much - well the Dr says.... or "they" say X, Y, Z it MUST be - I do feel media

scars play a huge factor but I also think we (as a society) like having our thinking done for us, makes life easier for so many. I think the dumbing down of society play into the scare factor and thus if they say you need this shot - you rush out and get it- no questions asked.

Some of it may come down to information overload.  The internet plays a huge part in this.  I have noticed that people of all ages are a little more inclined these days to throw up their hands and just do as xyz says because the amount of information is overwhelming. 

post #14 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

I am an OLDer and now a new mom and I see things are now night and day different!

 

I find now, "new" (be it young or old) but 1st timers, are like they have had their brain removed - I use to remember (and I have talked about this to other OLDer mom friends who say the same things) we didn't (back in the day) just drink the kook-aid, we asked questions (lots of them!!) and now that seems to be a lost art, and I just don't get it!

 

We use to question our parents and our GRANDPARENTS, we talked and got answers from our Dr.s we didn't just take it all at point blank value - and I see so many when you ask them a question (not just vac) and they seems so brainwashed (it really is the only word I can think to describe it) it's so much - well the Dr says.... or "they" say X, Y, Z it MUST be - I do feel media

scars play a huge factor but I also think we (as a society) like having our thinking done for us, makes life easier for so many. I think the dumbing down of society play into the scare factor and thus if they say you need this shot - you rush out and get it- no questions asked.

 do you think it's part an assumption that we live in such a wondrous IT age, that because everything we handle "looks" good, all the experts therefore, must be "right" and.....

 

even vaccines must be the "right" thing?

post #15 of 33

I think the pressure to be the perfect mom and keep your child 100% safe is a lot more on moms now than it used to be. I think even 12 years back when my first dd was born it was bad but now with my third it is so much worse. We have a very hard time accepting that life has risks these days ,that not every danger can be avoided. When I was a child we would sleep in the back seat of the car on night trips,no seat belts.

I think the whole big brother computer records makes moms paranoid to,your doc. knows if you haven't vaccinated,before it was all paper records and didn't pop up on a screen every time you went for a check up.

post #16 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Some of it may come down to information overload.  The internet plays a huge part in this.  I have noticed that people of all ages are a little more inclined these days to throw up their hands and just do as xyz says because the amount of information is overwhelming. 

 

Even back in the "old" days, there was information overload, of a different sort.  The card index system of Dewey could be incredible intimidating.

 

Pubmed is so much easier than Cumulus medicus indexus.  I'd walk into this big room, and have to find a book with the right word.  Then I'd have to line up a whole lot of books - sometimes ten or more thicker than the thickest telephone directories, with print even smaller.

 

it was truly like finding a needle in a haystack.

 

today, that needle is so much easier to find because good search engines eliminate a lot of the dross.

 

You just have to know the right word to look up.  But that applied back then, just as much as it does today.

post #17 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2threegrls View Post

I think the pressure to be the perfect mom and keep your child 100% safe is a lot more on moms now than it used to be. I think even 12 years back when my first dd was born it was bad but now with my third it is so much worse. We have a very hard time accepting that life has risks these days ,that not every danger can be avoided. When I was a child we would sleep in the back seat of the car on night trips,no seat belts.

I think the whole big brother computer records makes moms paranoid to,your doc. knows if you haven't vaccinated,before it was all paper records and didn't pop up on a screen every time you went for a check up.

 

What some of us called the "bubblewrapped baby" syndrome.

 

I read an article somewhere last year, penned by a paediatrician who said something like, "We have to teach parents that getting their kids out into nature is important for them."

 

goodvibes.gifthe spirit of slap came upon me, and the carnal me growled and felt like snarling through clenched teeth, the question, "Just how do you think it got to the point where parents are now afraid to let their kids climb a tree....."

post #18 of 33
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post



1. It's harder for doctors to lie to you. No more of this "I recently saw a child die of German measles" when all of that data is at our fingertips. No more "it's perfectly safe" when VAERS and VICP records are just a couple of clicks away.  You know, I cannot ever remember a doctor from yesteryear telling me a child died of German measles (or anything else, for that matter). I do remember a doctor (1999) urging me to consider DTaP, as whooping cough was nasty.  I did consider what he said, and part of the reason I did consider it is because he did not try and tell me rubella was a nightmare.  That would have made him lose credibility in my eyes.    I think doctors from yesteryear actually did live through some diseases and know that not all diseases we vax for are scary.  The issue with doctors today is many have  never  seen the diseases they are urging people to vaccinate for - they have little life experience to back up what they are urging.  It is easy to build a disease into something scary if you haven't seen it.   I also think kids today are a little sicker than they were in the past - primarily with allergies and asthma.  Doctors in the past thought most kids would come through things just fine, now they might not be so sure due to chronic health issues in children :(   Obviously, this is all speculative on my part, but it is what I suspect.  
  

2. It's harder for school officials to lie to you. No more withholding information about exemption rights when sites like NVICs make statutes readily available. No more telling you that you have to belong to a specific church or get a pastor's signature when you can easily find the truthful information.  Absolutely true.  



 
post #19 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

I'm technically not invited to participate because I only have littles. Sheepish.gif I did want to chime in with a devil's-advocate take on parenting in the Information Age.

1. It's harder for doctors to lie to you. No more of this "I recently saw a child die of German measles" when all of that data is at our fingertips. No more "it's perfectly safe" when VAERS and VICP records are just a couple of clicks away.

2. It's harder for school officials to lie to you. No more withholding information about exemption rights when sites like NVICs make statutes readily available. No more telling you that you have to belong to a specific church or get a pastor's signature when you can easily find the truthful information.

3. Public policy-making is more transparent. I think it would have been a LOT harder to sneak in those Hep B requirements had the Internet and social media been better developed in 1999. Contrast that with today, when consumer pressure put a halt to Merck's state-by-state lobbying for Guardasil mandates. I really do think that Internet access helped that activism take place.

I guess that paraphrases what Kathy said, but I do find it *easier* not to be worrying constantly if I can trust what people are telling me. It's reassuring to know that I can cross-reference anything that raises an eyebrow.

Those are the three things I can immediately think of.

I can think of one thing that's *probably* harder, but you moms with more life experience can weigh in on this. The unfettered deregulation and marketing power of drug companies means more and more and more ways to crowd up the Schedule with more and more and more vaccines. Don't get me wrong. It's been building up since they gained liability protection in '86. But today, it's gotten out of control.

Now Merck can develop a vaccine against nose-picking, have its own employees conduct pseudo-scientific safety testing, and send its puppets to ACIP to get it on the Schedule. Then the T.V. commercials and market-disguised-as-journalism begin in full force. Parents get to hear about how nose-picking kills 36,000 Americans annually and declining the vaccine is mean and nasty and selfish. Then the lines about how parents today don't understand how dangerous nose-picking was in 1953. Then a "news story" about an unvaccinated kid in Neverland who shoved his finger too far up his nostril and convulsed and died instantly. (Boy oh boy. His parents sure learned THEIR lessons. From now on, they'll get ALL of the vaccines without any questions). Then the mandates, which health departments readily enact to protect their almighty federal enticements. Then the state health departments scolding parents and forcing them to explain their refusals so that the "experts" can "counter misinformation" with the appropriate government and industry-sponsored sales-pitch talking points. And then, and then, and then..... I've watched it all unfold too many times!

Back in the day,a serious disease was met with a serious vaccine. Now it's fat freakin' Pharma free-for-all. eyesroll.gif THAT is what makes it harder to be a parent in 2013.

 

But shouldn't that very fact, make parents alert to the fact that all is not what is seems to be?  That perhaps what seems real is a veneer, or even a mirage?

 

Aren't they asking simple questions like, "Well how come grandma at 96 is still going strong and picking her nose at every opportunity?"

 

"She didn't need all these vaccines, so why should we take big-pharma's word for it?"

post #20 of 33
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post

 

Even back in the "old" days, there was information overload, of a different sort.  The card index system of Dewey could be incredible intimidating.

 

 

I think the difference is in the past you had to go looking for information (which was not always easy).  It was a sort of voluntary information overload.  

 

 

Now it is in your face, and it is hard to escape even if you want to.   

 

ETA:  I am not trying to downplay the amount of research you or anyone else did.  It is very clear you did a lot and you made a very informed decision.  I, alas, did not do a lot of research when my older children were young.  I knew a decent amount (more than most parents) but no where near as much as I know now about vaccines, diseases, etc.   I did not even feel called to research- the doc's had not made their case, and that was good enough for me to stop vaxxing.  I was fairly naturally minded anyways.   Contrast that to mothers today - I think many feel they have to  (not  "want to") research til they are blue in the face to justify not vaccinating.   I may be wrong - if any younger moms want to address this, I am all ears.  


Edited by kathymuggle - 6/28/13 at 6:28pm
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