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post #21 of 33

@kathymuggle.

 

Kids are a whole heap sicker today, than in the past. 

 

Even the old time doctors will scratch their heads when describing the average paediatric patient in 1940 or 50 and the average paediatric patient today.

 

to me it's a combo hit.

 

Lousy birth and formula starts the slide, vaccines are the first monkey wrench, then toss in serial body flora napalming anitbiotics, and parents who dont' realise that the constant use of tylenol for every ailment under the sun, constantly disables the inate immune system and creates allergies.

 

it's all there in the medical literature yet, paediatricians say very little about that.  come to think of it, if they did, their incomes would drop, so they toe the party line, because that makes greater economic sense...

 

sorry for the OT veer...

post #22 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I think the difference is in the past you had to go looking for information (which was not always easy).  It was a sort of voluntary information overload.  

 

 

Now it is in your face, and it is hard to escape even if you want to.   

 

I don't find it hard.. duck.gif

 

No-one rents space in my brain...

 

Listening is a choice, and so is learning.... and allowing others to rent brain space is also a choice.....

 

the people who allow information to wipe their faces...., should look to themselves, because the reason might be a fundamental insecurity in their ability to make choices, which might also stem from the fact that the foundational concepts of convictions are missing....

 

a problem for which there is a solution... knit.gif  convictions are like knitting.  a garment made stitch by stitch to construct a whole....

post #23 of 33
Thread Starter 

One last quick point, then I have to get off (nice discussion!)

 

In the past when I said something about vaccines or diseases, people, including doctors, would look at me with a bit of respect -  it was clear to them I knew what I was talking about/asking intelligent questions.

 

In recent years, if I  open my mouth about vaccines or diseases, people go off on a tangent about autism and say I got my info from natural news and Dr. Google.  It is annoying!  

post #24 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

One last quick point, then I have to get off (nice discussion!)

 

In the past when I said something about vaccines or diseases, people, including doctors, would look at me with a bit of respect -  it was clear to them I knew what I was talking about/asking intelligent questions.

 

In recent years, if I  open my mouth about vaccines or diseases, people go off on a tangent about autism and say I got my info from natural news and Dr. Google.  It is annoying!  

 

That's why the key is to ask questions which can't possible be construed as anything other than pubmed driven. 

 

If a doctor so much as mentions autism, natural news and Dr Google, I ask straight away, "WHERE do you get your information from?"  If they say, "The Health Department". I ask, "and where do THEY get THEIR information from?"  and if they say, "The medical literature" then I say, "Okay, you show me your stuff from the medical literature and then I'll show you my full text medical articles.  We can swap, and then have an informed discussion, huh?

 

Usually they run a mile.

post #25 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post

 do you think it's part an assumption that we live in such a wondrous IT age, that because everything we handle "looks" good, all the experts therefore, must be "right" and.....

 

even vaccines must be the "right" thing?

ah, YES!!!!!!!!! to all

 

awhile back someone posted on another thread (sorry I can't find it now) and it was about really the NEW "normal" and it listed a whole bunch of things that NOW are normal for children vs years ago (illness and reactions after vaccines, etc) - does someone know what I am referring to? it was only a few months ago- I really found it was spot on-it was posted in this section and I think it really nails so much of this - illness TODAY is so tied into the vacs-IMO

 

I had talked about the list IRL with other older moms and we all said none of our kids were like that (back in the day-nothing even close) - wish I could find it - sorry

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post

@kathymuggle.

 

Kids are a whole heap sicker today, than in the past. 

 

Even the old time doctors will scratch their heads when describing the average paediatric patient in 1940 or 50 and the average paediatric patient today.

 

to me it's a combo hit.

 

Lousy birth and formula starts the slide, vaccines are the first monkey wrench, then toss in serial body flora napalming anitbiotics, and parents who dont' realise that the constant use of tylenol for every ailment under the sun, constantly disables the inate immune system and creates allergies.

 

it's all there in the medical literature yet, paediatricians say very little about that.  come to think of it, if they did, their incomes would drop, so they toe the party line, because that makes greater economic sense...

 

sorry for the OT veer...

 
post #26 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

 

I find now, "new" (be it young or old) but 1st timers, are like they have had their brain removed - I use to remember (and I have talked about this to other OLDer mom friends who say the same things) we didn't (back in the day) just drink the kook-aid, we asked questions (lots of them!!) and now that seems to be a lost art, and I just don't get it!

I do see this alot with my friends, but definitely not the case for me - I've been chastized many times FOR questioning my elders and doctors and "how could I?"...it gets annoying.  I do things very different from my parents and grandparents, and while I love my family, it does give me this sense of being removed from it all like I'm on the outside looking in and don't quite fit in.  I was on the kook-aid path big time - animal science major with a pre-vet concentration (basically pre-med, just more species) at a top medically focused school.  I ate it up, argued with vegans daily over how much we humans *needed* cow milk (god I really really said some stupid things back then!), and didn't think poorly of pharmaceuticals.  And yet I declined my first vaccine at the age of about 16 - guardasil.  It was more my fear of needles, BUT, I had started taking Anat & Phys in high school, and very clearly remember the pediatrician explaining that it was a vaccine to prevent cancer...My brain jumped up and said hold the phone, that contradicts everything I've been learning thus far, just say no! And I did.  Of course it took me another 12 years before I started to really look at the bigger picture, and by the time DD was born I was overwhelmed, and it wasn't until she had some nasty reactions that I snapped out of my funk, got down to business and stood my ground.  I had the info in my head, I just needed to stand up for my LO.  I'm pretty wimpy about things like that, until the momma bear in me woke up and I found my voice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post

 

goodvibes.gifthe spirit of slap came upon me

LOL love that.  It's sad the dirty looks I get when my daughter walks around with cut up knees, dirty cheeks, mosquito bites and oh no - a black eye from tripping and falling on some toy in the yard!  Like letting kids play and learn their own limits by testing and getting hurt is somethoww failing them??

 

As for the OP, I think back to when I was a kid (bc my LO is still a wee one at 19mos) and there was far less media hype.  I've all but stopped subscribing to magazines because every other page is an ad for a new drug.  Every tv channel is full of vaccine and pharmaceutical commercials (we pretty much stick with disney jr at this point - I have to feed the disney-holic in me and my child!).  Today everything is a major event, outbreak, breaking news....nothing can ever just be.  In talking with my mother, she couldn't believe the number of new vaccines and boosters.  Thankfully she's been supportive of my decisions. 

post #27 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post

 

But shouldn't that very fact, make parents alert to the fact that all is not what is seems to be?  That perhaps what seems real is a veneer, or even a mirage?

 

Aren't they asking simple questions like, "Well how come grandma at 96 is still going strong and picking her nose at every opportunity?"

 

"She didn't need all these vaccines, so why should we take big-pharma's word for it?"

 

I am a new mom, but in my mid-30's, so not exactly a young mom.  Weighing in anyway!

 

I would THINK people would be asking these questions, but they aren't thinking along these lines.  Instead, they are thinking, "Boy, Grandma sure is lucky to be alive.  Soooo many people died back then of nose picking.  It sure is a good thing we have that vaccine now so we don't have to worry."

 

As I wade through studies/blogs/discussions, etc., my default is "What have humans done throughout history?  How did they handle this problem 100, 500, a 1000 years ago?  If humans have been doing something, say cosleeping, for thousands and thousands of years, it might be a good idea.  I explained my reasoning to someone once who was shocked!  Their image of 1000 years ago was WAAAY different than mine.  They saw it as scary, dangerous, and deadly.  "So many people died back then.  And they didn't live very long.  Why would you do something like they did?"

 

I definitely agree that there is an information overload today.  I'm an information junkie and I'm overloaded. . . There is so much info coming in about so many different topics: environment, education, food, politics, medicine, etc.  A fair amount of it is depressing and makes you feel hopeless - so people just give up thinking about.  Even worse, it is a constant, constant contradiction.  I was reading a parenting magazine just today and there was a page about milk.  In one blurb, "nutritionists" (I use this term loosely!) gave recommendations of how much cow's milk children NEED each day.  They said that if the child is overweight or obese, to give reduced fat or skim milk instead. Then, ON THE SAME PAGE, there was a snippet from a research study saying that children who drink low fat or skim milk tend to weigh MORE than those that drink whole milk.  They wondered a bit why (Duh! They are just NOW figuring this out??) and suggested that maybe kids who are overweight/obese should drink whole milk instead of low/no fat.  A lot of people just don't want to know anymore - they take the path of least resistance.

post #28 of 33

truedat.gif

 

So few people today have any realisation of history.  As people walk through major US cities, they have little idea that in the days of no sanitation, pigs ran free in cities as garbage removers.  the hoity-toity got shirty because the pigs dug wallows in public parks, but without those pigs to remove human detritus of ALL kinds. humans would have been worse off.

 

The biggest problem young mums like you will have is "cognitive dissonance" both from the pro vaccine parents and from pro vaccine doctors.  they will accuse you of cognitive dissonance, but people often point the finger at others thoughtlessly.

 

Moms who are undecided are much more open-minded towards available medical information which questions vaccines - even if their doctors don't show it to them. 

 

But mothers who have already vaccinated, have a strong psychological need to rationalize their decision as having been correct.  After all, who could live in such an "advanced" world, and get such a matter of importance, wrong?  And since most parents have gone through the same education system, and agree with the experts (why???)  the experts and other parents must surely must be right.  It's the lemming syndrome. 

 

And once a decision has been made that can't be taken back, your brain tricks you into not assessing any more information correctly.

 

Behavioural scientists know this, and have written about it, but for some reason, people ignore it. 

 

Worst, the best of scientists can't ignore this, and medical history proves that.  Which is why when I put a link up like this one http://stanmed.stanford.edu/2011summer/article7.html  so many parents have trouble processing it.  They say, "whooaarrrr, but they know everything!"  duh.gif .  Well, this immunologist has just told you they know pretty much nothing.  So what will you do with that information in the context of these question?

 

1) If immunologists don't know what an immune system is really doing, what do they SAY a vaccine DOES in the immune system about which they know almost nothing?

 

2) How then, can immunologists say, "A vaccine can't do that!" when they don't even know what it can or does do?

 

3) How can immunologists possible say that a vaccine is the "only" way to protect someone against a disease, when they actually can't tell you HOW the body handles infections, and all the other ways (apart from endstage antibodies) that the immune system does that?

 

4) given that they KNOW that the immune system of baby animals is radically different from adult animals, why do immunologists consider that a baby's immune system is 'defective'?

 

5) Now that we know that human breast milk, stands in the breach for the baby, while the baby's immune system systematically learns what is safe, what is not, what is self and what is not, how does that learning programme influence how an immunologist thinks?

 

(I'll answer that one for fun.  it doesn't.  Because immunologist's don't think about validity of function.  They only think about changing what is, to what they want it to be.)

 

6) Given all the above, how can they possibly know that the radically increasing number of vaccines given to babies, who had a different immune system from adults, ISN'T behind the huge increase in chronic disease, and the many conditions we see in children which are DIRECTLY CAUSED by the fact that these baby's immune systems have gone haywire?

 

7) Who has a handle of the whole, bigger picture?  Answer.  No-one.

 

Not even me.  But I can see one thing from the huge amount of medical literature that there is.

 

The proportion of children today who have conditions caused by the wrecking of the very immune system about which they know little is astonishly high in comparison to 1960, and the reason isn't TV!  It's not crap food.  It's not that nuclear power station you live near.  It's not just toxins.  all those things will contribute, and will contribute ESPECIALLY... if something, right at the start, has been trip-wired and is malfunction.

 

If you mess with a neonatal immune system then e-v-e-r-y-t-h-I-n-g else downstream doesn't work as well, and things you might have shrugged off, can hit you like a bomb.  To me, everything from conception to two years is precious, and I believe that if you mess with that, you pay a huge price. and I believe that, because I've spent 30 years studying the medical literature, and even though they know so little, in the last 15 years, what they have discovered will one day make immunologists consider some of what they have done to be criminal activity.

 

Some are now using those words (criminal overuse and abuse) with regard to antibiotics, and I believe that one day, vaccines will be put alongside antibiotics.

 

Back to topic...

 

So once a person has vaccinated, be they a doctor or a parent.... they aren't going to accept information that proves their decision making process was flawed, or that the current paradigm is incorrect because of false assumptions and the black holes in it... If they accepted that, it would make them feel that you're saying they are stupid, even when they aren't.  Not knowing what you don't know, doesn't make you stupid.  Perhaps assuming that everything is known a stupid assumption to think.  But it's understandable because we no longer walk on streets of mud, walk miles to collect dirty water, or dig holes to poo in.  "Real life" today, is a rare commodity.  Most things today, come from a "flat screen"....

 

The medical profession also screws around this concept of cognitive dissonance to try to back non vaccinators into a corner. 

 

Once a doctor has chosen a career in the pharmaceutical industry (and lets be honest, being a paediatrician is not a calling - it's a career) they are unlikely to be objective about the industry's goals and ethics.

 

You just have to sit down and look at all the subtle pushing being achieved by the freebie pin-ups in a doctors waiting room, to know this is a business, not a calling.  The bills have to be paid.

 

They use the principles of cognitive dissonance to be condescending and insulting towards parents who don't want to vaccinate by saying, "What medical school did you go to?  Don't you realise we're the ones who studied immunology ROTFLMAO.gifirked.gif and we know what we're doing because we spent half a million dollars on student loans to insert alphabet soup after our names?? How dare you insult our intelligence!  What did you say your IQ was?."

 

And guess what?  Those people have to pay those huge student loans off. 

 

That money builds up before they even get to KNOW whether or not the job is for them.  And if they get an epiphany and realise it's not for them, what then?  They aren't "fit" for any other job if they turn their backs on the medical system, and they have a millstone around their necks.  At least half a million in student loans.

 

So they have any objectivity neutralise by the very fact that the job they are trained in, is the only job whereby they can pay back that overdraft.  

 

How many people here, realise that in 1920, doctors didn't go to medical school?  They went to about five lectures, bought a degree, and worked along side older doctors with no debt. 

 

If they wanted a different job, they walked out and got one. 

 

Most of the so-called "famous" doctors who were involved in polio had NO FORMAL medical education at all. And... there was no huge pharmaceutical industry either....  That can be verified in a book by J.R. Paul called A History of Poliomyelitis which was published by Yale University in 1971.  It takes pride of place in my bookcase.  And has no hesitation in calling the treatment of polio, barbaric, cruel, inhumane etc.  There are many other revelations in that book which would make people who think the world has always been like it is in 2013, vomit in disgust.

 

So doctors today, with huge loans to repay have no other way to repay them, than to stick with what they know, so they put their backs to the wall, toe the official line, only read what they are told to read, and fight against non-conformists, in sheer self defence.. Once they've paid their loan off, they fight to justify the fact that they stayed there to pay their loan off. 

 

If they are hospital doctors and have climbed the hierarchy of success, whereas once they were being verbally abused and overworked by senior doctors, now they are doing the same to junior doctors... and guess what?  Most of them like it.  It's pay-back.  It's human nature. 

 

So most of these doctors happily tell parents that because these stupid parents weren't bright enough, or didn't want to go through the same crazy medical education (brainwashing) system, they don't have the brain to understand medical information.  "Trust us, we know what we're doing". 

 

Yet when you take a lot of this information to them, they never knew it was there, haven't read it, and half the time, when they do read it, they don't understand it.  Why don't they understand it?  Because... because they've not systematically looked, over a period of time, and collected a lot of their own information, keeping it in context. 

 

If you hand to doctor say, five medical articles, is like taking five pieces out of a one thousand piece jigsaw puzzle, refusing to even show them the picture, and saying to them, "now understand that in the context of pregnancy, birth, to death.  Most of them just blink. and say, " Oh, but you've taken this out of context, and misinterpreted it."  (they secretely think, "There has to be a place in the dogma that explains these anomalies")  And it's not even worth them trying to understand it, because the amount of time needed to study and toss out the junk from their brains, is huge.  worse, if they did understand it, and saw that you were right, what sort of position does that put them in?  You can't read it all and do nothing.  You either reject it in self- preservation, or you accept it, which might mean you have to make a stand.

 

Which means, that any medical professional then faces the abuse that we do.  How many will do that?

 

Back to people.  People who have not vaccinated their children are much more able to be objectively because their decision is reversible, if they wish. 

 

They have no psychological need to manipulate the available information.  What does the average parent, who choses NOT to vaccinate have to GAIN? 

 

Nothing. 

 

They reap the hatred of society - witness face book septics who dog-pile, verbally abuse and bully anyone who dares even suggest issues with vaccines.  Read the blogs which doctors who think they are "skeptics", write.  Why would anyone willingly want that kind of abuse hurled at them?  People like me, stick to it, because we've learned enough to know that we are right, therefore we are willing to take the absolute minority stand, because we know what we know, and that what we know has more truth to it, than the immunologist who won't tell parents that actually, they know almost nothing about the immune system. http://stanmed.stanford.edu/2011summer/article7.html

 

HOWEVER, people who HAVE injected toxic substances into their precious babies will have a strong need to believe that these injections are not toxic, and have some form of benefit.  That's often what is behind public flaming.  The psychological need to justify the decision they've already made, completely controls how they approach the evidence. 

 

If the pro vaccine who pack attack on facebook, were that confident in their choices, they wouldn't bother to get so aggressive towards those who disagree. We wouldn't bother to try to correct someone who says that the sun never rises each morning.....  Justifying their decision, (and intelligence) is one driving force why some pro vaccine attack those won't vaccinate, and bring in the "group attack" method.  They use group attack on facebook, because that makes them feel good about attacking.  After all, the majority must be right.   I just watch, laugh and don't participate, because I don't' give a rip about what they think.  They don't "know".

 

I say all this, because it's important for young mothers to think about the reasons why they will face the public opposition they face.  Your opposition isn't out there, isn't because the pro-vaccine are right.  But to know whether YOU are right or not, YOU have to do the study.  YOU have to know why you are taking a position which will expose you to a level of public societal abuse, which would never be allowed for in other social, religious of educational situations.

 

The very people who legislate against "hate speech" and bullying in other social circumstances, are prepared to drop all their supposed "principles" when it comes to non-vaccinators. 

 

In order to cope with people like this, you must be wise, educate and strategise.  Otherwise, you will find yourself in a situation where when heat is applied, you will wilt.

 

You've got to get to a point where you KNOW the facts (or lack of).  You KNOW what you know, and you don't give a rip what anyone else thinks, because you know that you've made an informed choice based on the truth, not some  manufactured choice based on hysterical fear of disease and  social intimidation tactics. You need to know enough about WHY others attack you, AND the medical literature, so that you can stand up and defend yourself.

 

faint.gif.................Sermon over for the day.   REPlaySkateboard04HL.gif

post #29 of 33
Quote:

Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post

 

It takes pride of place in my bookcase.

Well, I must say that YOUR two books take pride of place in MY bookcase, and I have offered to lend them to several different moms and moms-to-be.

In the summer of 2009 while pregnant with my second child, I read both of your books from beginning to end. Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge with others.

Here are two reasons why I appreciate your work:

 

post #30 of 33

I started researching vaccines in the late 90's (ok, 1999. I was 19.) My oldest was born in 2002 and I had done enough research to be anti-vax by then so luckily my kids have no vaccines (and I have kept researching over the past 14 years because I find it fascinating that with all the information available,  people still vaccinate. I have never found anything in 14 years to make me question my decision.) As the kids have grown and I have seen their health in comparison to their peers I know I definitely made the right decision. I think it's harder for people "new" to research because they still question themselves and maybe haven't personally seen the differences yet...

post #31 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post

But shouldn't that very fact, make parents alert to the fact that all is not what is seems to be?  That perhaps what seems real is a veneer, or even a mirage?

Aren't they asking simple questions like, "Well how come grandma at 96 is still going strong and picking her nose at every opportunity?"

"She didn't need all these vaccines, so why should we take big-pharma's word for it?"

Ok, I haven't been on here very much, but HOLY FREAKING CRAP I haven't seen you on here for ages. Oh man, good to see you here! joy.gif:joy:joy

On topic, I think in some ways with the info out there and the internet so prevalent nowadays that yes, it is easier. I spent hours a day for months sometimes researching and going through articles, etc. I had binders to back me up if CPS ever showed up at my door or a friend ever asked for advice. Now, I can just give a website recommendation and doctors are much more open to non-vaxing. That's just my experience, though.
post #32 of 33

I think most people don't realize how very powerful propaganda is, and how well-planned and entrenched vaccine propaganda has become in our society.


There are Happy Happy!! Vaccines Are Good For You!  children's books and cartoons; older children are taught in health class.  Adults are faced with newspapers, TV news networks, mailings from the doctor, mailings from the health insurance companies, pamphlets in their doctors' offices, and even billboards. Then they are lectured by their doctors, their nurses, and their friends.  Their children aren't allowed to attend school (or so we're told) if they're not caught up on vaccines.  Some companies fire employees for not getting the flu shot.  Health insurance companies offer steep discounts for groups with 100% vaccine compliance.

 

When you google vaccines, the first several hundred pages that pop up are all about how great they are.

 

Law & Order even had an episode where a child died of measles because the foolish parents believed that there was an MMR/autism link and didn't get the child a shot.  They made it appear that death from measles is to be expected (so you NEED that vaccine, mama!), while adverse reactions to vaccines are nonexistent.

 

Look at how our society has been in the past with propaganda.  Children grow up believing what they've been taught without a second thought, even when it doesn't make sense. They can grow up believing that people of other races and religions are to be feared or are to be disdained--not only because that's what they were told, but because IT WAS ACCEPTED BY EVERYONE AROUND THEM.

 

The pharmaceutical industry--and for that matter, the agricultural industry--have obviously analyzed why previous generations' attempt to gain control with propaganda failed, and they're putting what they've learned into good use:  they've staffed the watchdog industries with their own people a decade or two BEFORE they've needed them.

 

People should be howling down the fact that pharmaceutical companies design, direct, interpret, ghostwrite, and market their own safety/efficacy studies.  You'd think we'd have learned something after tobacco. But we haven't. The ones who have learned from the tobacco companies' debacle are Big Pharma and Big Agra.

post #33 of 33

Thanks everybody for a super interesting thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post

 

Kids are a whole heap sicker today, than in the past. 

 

Even the old time doctors will scratch their heads when describing the average paediatric patient in 1940 or 50 and the average paediatric patient today.

 

to me it's a combo hit.

 

Lousy birth and formula starts the slide, vaccines are the first monkey wrench, then toss in serial body flora napalming anitbiotics, and parents who dont' realise that the constant use of tylenol for every ailment under the sun, constantly disables the inate immune system and creates allergies.

 

it's all there in the medical literature yet, paediatricians say very little about that.  come to think of it, if they did, their incomes would drop, so they toe the party line, because that makes greater economic sense...

 

sorry for the OT veer...

 

On top of the hits to health mentioned above you can also add chemicals in mattresses, GMO foods destroying gut flora, and a tremendous amount of general household and life items being made with petrochemicals.  How many years did people use BPA laden stuff without even thinking about it?

 

Now, this is not to be mean to anybody.  I'm just saying I think you have as hard a time with dealing with others about not vaccinating as you expect to have and also relative to how confident you are about it yourself.

 

I've never had a problem with anybody ever about me being anti-vax.  And I consider myself SUPER anti-vax.  I was very fortunate to get started on a healthier kick for myself a year or so before I became pregnant with our daughter, so for me there was never any question about vaccinating.  I don't know if any people think I'm crazy or a bad mother or whatever, but I wouldn't care if they did.  I think anybody who vaccinates is either unfortunate enough to never have been exposed to anything different so they just don't know any better or they are crazy or can't think for themselves or whatever else.  If people are interested to learn more about it, I'll gladly suggest some resources and I always tell them you can't help what you didn't know.  It's about what you do going forward.  If people aren't interested, oh well.

 

On the rare occasion someone raises their eyebrows at me about being anti-vax or anti-GMO or anything else, I look at them and say, "In 2002, one in 2,000 children were diagnosed with autism.  Now it's one in 50.  What do you think is happening?"  Personally I think it's a lot of factors, not ONLY the vaccines.

 

It also helps telling people to bugger off when you've had family friends die from flu shots, my father got incredibly sick from a flu shot and will never take another vaccine, and another family member who caught the whooping cough from the vaccine and almost died.  I also know a special ed teacher who says she has never had a student who wasn't vaccinated.  It's a lot tougher for people to dispute personal experience than some vague study.

 

I expect it to be easy and it is.  I know I have done my own research...  Loads of books and videos, and most of the stuff I have read is by M.D.'s saying don't do it!

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

 

Look at how our society has been in the past with propaganda.  Children grow up believing what they've been taught without a second thought, even when it doesn't make sense. They can grow up believing that people of other races and religions are to be feared or are to be disdained--not only because that's what they were told, but because IT WAS ACCEPTED BY EVERYONE AROUND THEM.

 

The pharmaceutical industry--and for that matter, the agricultural industry--have obviously analyzed why previous generations' attempt to gain control with propaganda failed, and they're putting what they've learned into good use:  they've staffed the watchdog industries with their own people a decade or two BEFORE they've needed them.

 

I could see, though, where it could be more difficult for people who buy into the propaganda or are surrounded by people who do, because there is definitely a LOT of money put into that, and it is designed to be extremely powerful.  This is why it is SO important to teach our children NOT to blindly obey ANYONE and to question everything and think for themselves.

 

My mother was a little bit upset because she felt like I was saying she was wrong for vaccinating me, but I told her first of all she was doing the best she knew at the time, and secondly vaccines really were a lot different in the 70s than they are now.  Can't change the past.  She sees how healthy her granddaughter is and doesn't argue with me about any of my decisions for her anymore.

 

It's also fortunate that under the Canadian Constitution, people can't be forced to vaccinate in Canada (I guess your private employer could make you if you want to keep your job), and you don't have to claim religious reasons.  You can say you do not vaccinate for reasons of conscience.  Health Canada did hide the exemption form on their site, though, and even as recent as 2009 it used to be readily available and obvious.  I assume it's still there somewhere.

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Mothering › Mothering Forums › Baby › Baby Health › Vaccinations › I'm Not Vaccinating › hey - moms of older kids - do you think new moms today have it easier or harder than you did wrt vaccine decisions?