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My son got the MMR and chicken pox vaccine but is having some kind of reaction? help!

post #1 of 57
Thread Starter 

I'm new here, hi! 

 

My son got his 1 year vaccines 11 days ago and know for sure he got MMR and chicken pox vaccine and I think rubella? Whatever the CDC schedule is, we got.  He was fine after the vaccines. No fever or swelling or crying or rashes at all.  Until yesterday.  He got a fever of 101.5 yesterday and was fussy and then today woke up with a rash that looks like a lot of little dots. I am going to try and post a picture, let me know if it doesn't work. 

 

<a href="http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/leonidasofsparta/media/IMG_5169_zps10257059.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o638/leonidasofsparta/IMG_5169_zps10257059.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_5169_zps10257059.jpg"/></a>

 

That rash is all over his body. His arms, legs, face, tummy, back and even his diaper area.  I was reading online that the chicken pox vaccine can cause a mild form of chicken pox if its within 14 days of getting the chicken pox vaccine (which it is) but it doesn't really look like the pictures I see online of chicken pox.  What else could it be? Is this a common reaction to the MMR?  If it IS a mild form of chicken pox from the vaccine does this mean he is immune now to the chicken pox and doesn't need a booster?  Does this mean he is sensitive to vaccines and that he shouldn't get the MMR boosters anymore? 

 

I am hoping someone can help thank you! 

post #2 of 57
Thread Starter 

Hmm I don't think that worked. Let me try this 

 

[URL=http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/leonidasofsparta/media/IMG_5169_zps10257059.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o638/leonidasofsparta/IMG_5169_zps10257059.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

 

Edit: Darn it lol. 

post #3 of 57
The picture isn't showing up still. Are the dots raised? Can you press clear plastic on one to see if they still remain red when pressure is applied?
post #4 of 57
Thread Starter 

Tell me if this link works http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o638/leonidasofsparta/IMG_5169_zps10257059.jpg?t=1372551430

 

Or can you tell me how you post a direct picture on this site? 

 

Also, he has not had any new foods or new shampoos/detergents so I know it is not an allergic reaction to any of those things. 

post #5 of 57

Rubella is part of the MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella). There is an MMRV, which adds the chicken pox vaccine, and is given in a single shot, and there is a separate chicken pox vaccine.

 

Your son might be having a vaccine-induced case of measles, or it could be an adverse reaction, a rash that is not a measles rash but something a bit more serious.  Or he could have come down with a totally different rash-causing virus. He could even be having an allergic reaction to something. I think a doctor ought to examine him.

 

I would be very, very careful not to introduce any new foods during this time, in case his immune system is completely wacked out from the vaccines.  So if you've been breastfeeding, this is NOT the time to introduce cow's milk, and no matter what milk he's been getting, this is not the time to introduce foods he's never had before, particularly if they are common allergens (wheat, peanut, citrus, strawberry, other nuts, shellfish, eggs, etc.).

 

I think you should call your doctor and speak to whoever is on call, or else go to an urgent care center if your insurance covers it.But make sure that whoever examines your child doesn't think that you are there just to get a prescription--you want to know what this is.

 

Those of us whose children have had severe reactions wish we'd never let them get vaccines.

 

For the future, you do not have to get boosters to any shot if you have blood work done that shows that there is still adequate immunity.  This blood work is called a titer.  You can get a titer for measles, and if your child has enough antibodies, he will not need a booster.

 

For that matter, in most states, you don't need to get vaccines in order to send your child to school.  You can fill out a form saying that you have either a religious or philosophical objection.  You can get some vaccines, delay them, or turn them down altogether.

 

Before you make any decision on whether or not to continue with vaccines, it's a good idea to research the heck out the issue.  THat means looking at both sides.  The "official vaccination recommendations" are easy to research; every doctor, every hospital, has info telling you how wonderful vaccines are, and how your child will be at risk for a horrible death if he doesn't get every. single. one.

 

It's a bit harder to find the other side of the issue.  There are some extreme sites out there that do a bit of fear-mongering, too. But there are also a lot of people who trusted the government-sponsored info on how safe and necessary vaccines are, whose children were injured or even killed by those vaccines, and it's important to listen to what they have to say, too.  What they say, over and over, is that their child had an adverse reaction to a vaccine, and their doctor/nurse/hospital/family/etc didn't believe them, or that the doctor gave the child a bunch of medical interventions that also had adverse reactions, and things spiraled out of control, or that their child was never the same after.  The people whose children reacted tell a far different story about vaccines than the medical personnel who have never seen a reaction.

 

One site I like is www.fourteenstudies.org.  They do a good job of analyzing and explaining the serious flaws in the studies that purport to show vaccine safety. 

 

Right now, though, your priority should be finding out what exactly the rash is. 

 

I hope your child recovers without complications, and please come back and let us know how he is!

post #6 of 57

Your latest picture worked!  It does look to me like it could be chicken pox, but again, I think a doctor or nurse should look at it in person.

 

As long as it's a mild case with no complications, chicken pox is not such a bad thing, and he would certainly not need a booster.

post #7 of 57
I agree with Taximom5, it looks a lot like chicken pox to me, but I also agree with her previous post and I think it is important that you have someone evaluate the rash in the event it is something more serious. Best of wishes to you and your little one <3
post #8 of 57
Thread Starter 

Thank you for the information! Our Dr. told us that not getting the chicken pox vaccine was going to be a hassle because schools will make you keep your child at home if there is an outbreak and it doesn't count as an excused absence.  Also, we really like our pediatrician and her office and they don't accept patients that don't vaccinate on schedule :( 

 

So if it is a mild case of chicken pox does this mean he has a lifelong immunity and won't need boosters?  

 

And thanks for the tips about not introducing new foods!  He turned 1 May 7th so he has been on cows milk for almost two months now and has been fine. Nothing new has been introduced since he got the vaccine.  We were going to try some shellfish but I guess we will hold out on that. 

 

Edit: I talked to a nurse on call at our pediatricians office and she said to only worry if its not gone after 5 days. 


Edited by whompingwillow - 6/29/13 at 6:40pm
post #9 of 57

Looking at the picture, it could be chicken pox, but that's not exactly the only thing it could be.  There are a bunch of possibilities.  It's nice of the nurse to tell you not to worry, but in these circumstances, I would probably want to bring my kid in to be seen. 

 

After my son's first varicella shot, he got a rash.  We thought at first that it was a vaccine reaction, and then possibly an allergy to some antibiotics.  We spent a month going back and forth to the pediatrician's office basically once a week, twice some weeks.  In the end, it turned out to be scabies.  So keep in mind that sometimes kids pick things up coincidentally, and there are possibilities besides vaccine reaction.  This time of year, chiggers are also a pretty major possibility.

 

On your ped's thing about schools and varicella and outbreaks - yes, they may ask you to keep your unvaccinated child home in the event of an outbreak, but what does "unexcused absence" mean in the early grades anyway?  They can hardly go after you for educational neglect while they've TOLD you not to bring your child to school.  Most public schools won't keep a child back a grade in early elementary without talking extensively to the parents about it - your kid is not going to have to repeat second grade even if he misses a month because of a CP outbreak.  It may be difficult for you, in any number of ways, to have him home, but this unexcused absence thing should not be a consideration (maybe in high school, maybe). 

post #10 of 57

It looks like chicken pox to me too. I have embedded the photo, so it is easier for others to view.

 

post #11 of 57
Thread Starter 

Wheww I am relieved that most of you seem to think it looks like chicken pox.  The thought of measles just scares me a bit.  I will make an appointment for Monday just to be sure. I have been to the doctor twice since he got his vaccines so I feel a bit like a nut going again. 

 

I live in TX and I heard that public schools here (esp the one that my son would go to) are VERY strict about unexcused absences but wonder if he can get a medical exemption from the boosters if they can confirm he has chicken pox? Since getting chicken pox means you are immune for life right? or is that not true if he got it from the vaccine vs naturally?  I wouldn't say its a super mild case. I mean he probably has 50+ spots and some even on his lips and testicles but he doesn't seem to be scratching them so not sure what to think. 

 

Again, thank you guys so much for your help! I really appreciate it!  And I do not think they are bug bites because he hasn't been outside for several days due to the heat here (he has mild eczema that flares up if he gets too hot) and neither me or my husband has any bites whatsoever and he sleeps in our room with us so I feel like if it was something in the house we would all have bites, but I could be wrong.  The fact that it came right after he had spiked a fever of 101.5 makes me a little nervous though. 

 

Should I give him tylenol for discomfort if he starts acting like he is irritated? I did give him tylenol yesterday when he got the fever but only one dose. Hope that didn't make things worse somehow....

 

Sorry for all the rambling. I'm a FTM so every little thing makes me worry :( 

 

Oh also forgot to add that they are raised bumps, not sure how clear that is in the pic.  Someone asked early in the thread.  What does that mean if they are raised vs flat?

post #12 of 57
post #13 of 57

I'm sorry that you consented to the chickenpox vaccine just because of what your doctor told you about unexcused absences. If you think about it, your son would not get in trouble for being out of school if the health department forced him to stay out of school during a chickenpox outbreak.

 

Now that he most likely has chickenpox, get it documented in his chart, so that he doesn't need the second dose. Or, you could get his immunity tested with a titer test, and if it shows immunity, he wouldn't have to get the second shot. Or, you could just sign the exemption form.

 

Don't give him any more Tylenol. Tylenol during chickenpox increases the risk of complications, and it increases the duration of illness. And this is true for most viral illnesses.

post #14 of 57
Thread Starter 

Ok read the link.  Now I am confused!  The nurse told me (I wrote it down) that if he got a fever above 100.4 within two weeks of getting the vaccine to give him 5 mL of Tylenol.  Why would she say that? My Dr. went to Northwestern and is very intelligent and a great Pediatrician (she advised me not to circumcise, which is one of the reasons I went with her. I am against it, and told me if I did to never retract etc) 

 

I won't give him anymore Tylenol unless it gets crazy high, my husband is a bigger worry wart than I am so there is no way he would agree to not give it if it got above 103 I'd say. 

post #15 of 57
Tylenol and chicken pox: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2656959
"These results provide evidence that acetaminophen does not alleviate symptoms in children with varicella and may prolong illness."


http://aut.sagepub.com/content/12/3/293.abstract
"This preliminary study found that acetaminophen use after measles-mumps-rubella vaccination was associated with autistic disorder." (This is NOT a good study, but it does raise questions about Tylenol and vaccines that have not yet been adequately studied.)

Remember that a moderate fever is there to do a job--to kill the virus.
post #16 of 57

Whomping Willow, conventional medicine is pretty a-okay with tylenol for fevers, which is why the nurse said what she did.  (I am also pretty a-okay with tylenol for fevers.  I certainly agree with your husband that fevers over 103 need to be addressed.) 

 

Not everyone thinks that Beyond Conformity is a good source of medical info.  All the links in that blog post are to other posts on that blog, and it's possible that there's a primary source down there someplace, but on the surface and on that first level down, the website is Hilary Butler's editorial opinion, with no factual support, which makes it hard to evaluate the research that she's talking about.  There are certainly plenty of websites out there that specialize in bibliography salad, where there are a ton of links that hypothetically support the point being made, but which, on examination, don't contain supporting data.  You have to read pretty extensively to get to the level where you can evaluate whether there's supporting data back there, or if someone has just put up a lot of links in the hopes of looking impressive.

 

It's great that you have a pediatrician you like and trust, and that's a valuable thing.  He has some positions that raise my eyebrows (and I'm pro-vax) - liking and trusting your pediatrician shouldn't keep you from ever questioning him or his staff. 

post #17 of 57

That's cool that your doctor is against circumcision. It's not cool that she kicks patients out of her practice for not following the exact CDC vaccine schedule. That is against AAP recommendations, by the way, to kick patients out for that. It's also not cool that she hasn't informed you of the documented risks of Tylenol, and that she hasn't informed you that fever below 107.6 is not dangerous. It's not about what school she went to or about her intelligence. It's about keeping up with the research.

 

Fever above 107.6 can cause brain damage. What scares you about fever below 107.6? It's very rare for a fever to go above 105, anyway, which is what I've observed with my family. We never lower fevers, and the highest a fever has ever gotten in my family is 105.

post #18 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeepyCat View Post

Not everyone thinks that Beyond Conformity is a good source of medical info.  All the links in that blog post are to other posts on that blog, and it's possible that there's a primary source down there someplace, but on the surface and on that first level down, the website is Hilary Butler's editorial opinion, with no factual support, which makes it hard to evaluate the research that she's talking about. 

 

blahblah.gif

 

Well, I just went to that blog.  Where are all these links to other blogs???   Most of the links are full text medical articles embedded in the text. Others are to the media articles referred to. shrug.gif

 

So how is it hard to evaluate the research, when it's all there to read, handed to you on a plate? duh.gif

 

Astonishing...

 

Do you prefer "opinionating, before investigating."?


Edited by Momtezuma Tuatara - 6/29/13 at 9:36pm
post #19 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by whompingwillow View Post

Ok read the link.  Now I am confused!  The nurse told me (I wrote it down) that if he got a fever above 100.4 within two weeks of getting the vaccine to give him 5 mL of Tylenol.  Why would she say that?

 

Because the nurse doesn't bother to read the medical literature, or the World Health Organisation websites.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by whompingwillow View Post

My Dr. went to Northwestern and is very intelligent and a great Pediatrician (she advised me not to circumcise, which is one of the reasons I went with her. I am against it, and told me if I did to never retract etc)?

 

 

I dare say many people would consider many of the pro-circumcision paediatricians are intelligent as well.  Being intelligent, doesn't guarantee that the doctor would get 100% on an examination, does it?  Most doctors know very little about fevers, or temperatures.  That doesn't mean they aren't intelligent.  It just means they don't know what they don't know.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by whompingwillow View PostI won't give him anymore Tylenol unless it gets crazy high, my husband is a bigger worry wart than I am so there is no way he would agree to not give it if it got above 103 I'd say

 

 

 

103 is about the time most medics panic.

 

the University of Michigan used to have a useful page on fever, which for some reason was taken down.

 

Here is the information and the "waybackmachine" URL which shows that it did one exist.  It's very interesting that they took it down in 2011:

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20100217043411/http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/pa/pa_feverpho_hhg.htm

 

Myths and Facts about Fever

Misconceptions about the dangers of fever are commonplace. Unwarranted fears about harmful side effects from fever cause lost sleep and unnecessary stress for many parents. Let the following facts help you put fever into perspective:

MYTH: All fevers are bad for children.

FACT: Fevers turn on the body's immune system. Fevers are one of the body's protective mechanisms.

Most fevers are good for children and help the body fight infection. Use the following definitions to help put your child's level of fever into perspective:

       100°F to 102°F     Low-grade fever: Beneficial. Try 
       (37.8°C to 39°C)   to keep the fever in this range.  
       102°F to 104°F     Moderate-grade fever: Beneficial. 
       (39°C to 40°C) 
       Over 104°F         High fever: Causes discomfort, but 
       (40°C)             is harmless. 
       Over 105°F         High fever: Higher risk of 
       (40.6°C)           bacterial infections. 
       Over 108°F         Serious fever:  The fever itself can 
       (42°C)             be harmful. 

MYTH: Fevers cause brain damage or fevers over 104°F (40°C) are dangerous.

FACT: Fevers with infections don't cause brain damage. Only body temperatures over 108°F (42°C) can cause brain damage. The body temperature goes this high only with high environmental temperatures (for example, if a child is confined in a closed car in hot weather).

MYTH: Anyone can have a febrile seizure (seizure triggered by fever).

FACT: Only 4% of children have a febrile seizures.

MYTH: Febrile seizures are harmful.

FACT: Febrile seizures are scary to watch, but they usually stop within 5 minutes. They cause no permanent harm. Children who have had febrile seizures do not have a greater risk for developmental delays, learning disabilities, or seizures without fever.

MYTH: All fevers need to be treated with fever medicine.

FACT: Fevers need to be treated only if they cause discomfort. Usually that means fevers over 102°F or 103°F (39°C or 39.4°C).

MYTH: Without treatment, fevers will keep going higher.

FACT: Wrong. Because of the brain's thermostat, fevers from infection top out at 105°F or 106°F (40.6°C or 41.1°C) or lower.

MYTH: With treatment, fevers should come down to normal.

FACT: With treatment, fevers usually come down 2° or 3°F (1.1° or 1.7°C).

MYTH: If the fever doesn't come down (if you can't "break the fever"), the cause is serious.

FACT: Fevers that don't respond to fever medicine can be caused by viruses or bacteria. Whether the medicine works or not doesn't relate to the seriousness of the infection.

MYTH: If the fever is high, the cause is serious.

FACT: If the fever is high, the cause may or may not be serious. If your child looks very sick, the cause is more likely to be serious.

MYTH: The exact number of the temperature is very important.

FACT: How your child looks is what's important, not the exact temperature.

MYTH: Temperatures between 98.7°F and 100°F (37.1°C to 37.8°C) are low-grade fevers.

FACT: The normal temperature changes throughout the day. It peaks in the late afternoon and evening. A low-grade fever is 100°F to 102°F (37.8°C to 39°C).

Reading Temperatures

  • A reading of 99.4°F (37.4°C) is the average rectal temperature. It normally can change from 98.4°F (36.9°C) in the morning to a high of 100.3°F (37.9°C) in the late afternoon.
  • A reading of 98.6°F (37°C) is just the average oral temperature. It normally can change from a low of 97.6°F (36.4°C) in the morning to a high of 99.5°F (37.5°C) in the late afternoon.

Written by B.D. Schmitt, M.D., author of "Your Child's Health," Bantam Books.

post #20 of 57

OP - I would bring my child in Monday to have the pediatrician look at the rash.  If she verifies it is chicken pox, your child would not need any additional varicella vaxes.  Some schools ask that unvaxed children stay home during an outbreak, but it is rarely enforced.  Those are considered unexcused absences in Texas, and it is a big deal, even in the early grades (in TX).  Children out with the chicken pox do have excused absences.

 

There are some studies that have shown reduced efficacy in vaccinations where anti-pyretics (Tylenol/Advil) are given routinely as prophylaxis for pain/fever.  There has not been a definitive study that calls for cessation of use of these medications to treat fevers.  That being said, I do not treat a fever under 101.  I do treat at 101 since my kids are prone to high fevers and fevers above 104 can lead to seizures, and prolonged seizures can cause brain damage.

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