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Autism/Vaccination Correlation and Functional Medicine - Page 2

post #21 of 79
Quote:
Are you saying that it would be unethical to give children placebo vitamins for a year? Are you really equating that with not giving a child their vaccines? Wow.

 

Not really saying anything about the ethics of either one. Just pointing out the double standard.

 

And there is never going to be a double blind study of 10,000 autistic children getting vitamins and a diet change because the methods these parents are using to help recover their children are based on child-specific symptoms and not the autism label.

post #22 of 79

Sorry you guys feel like the medical community does not take autism seriously. That has not been my experience, and there have been tons of articles on CNN about the prevalence of autism. 

 

My doctor, along with all my friend's doctors, have us fill out forms and questionares before every appointment to make sure our children do not have any possible autism symptoms. They  know that catching it early provides the best outcome and our doctor is very vigilant about looking for autism signs and symptoms. 

 

I am not sure what you guys mean by insinuating that the medical profession does not take autism seriously. 

 

"Not really saying anything about the ethics of either one. Just pointing out the double standard." 

 

Not giving children vitamins for a year is not the same thing as not giving thousands of children their vaccines. I am sorry but they do not even compare in how they could effect the individual child and society. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that front.  

post #23 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

Sorry you guys feel like the medical community does not take autism seriously. That has not been my experience, and there have been tons of articles on CNN about the prevalence of autism. 

My doctor, along with all my friend's doctors, have us fill out forms and questionares before every appointment to make sure our children do not have any possible autism symptoms. They  know that catching it early provides the best outcome and our doctor is very vigilant about looking for autism signs and symptoms. 


I am not sure what you guys mean by insinuating that the medical profession does not take autism seriously. 


"
Not really saying anything about the ethics of either one. Just pointing out the double standard." 


Not giving children vitamins for a year is not the same thing as not giving thousands of children their vaccines. I am sorry but they do not even compare in how they could effect the individual child and society. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that front.  

There is a subset of children with autism who also had severe reactions to vaccines, resulting in intestinal disorders, autoimmune issues, heavy metals toxicity, and vitamin deficiencies--all documented.

Most of the mainstream medical community is in such denial, parents can't even get them to run the tests necessary to confirm or rule out such issues. Instead, they say (sounding quite like you, tea cozy), that such issues are a wild goose chase, and to just accept autism.

When parents do manage to get the tests run, they find that their autistic children actually have celiac disease or other inflammatory bowel disorders, food allergies or intolerances, juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, vitamin D deficiency, pernicious anemia (B12 deficiency), mercury toxicity, and many even test positive for Lyme disease.

Any one of these medical conditions can result in major neurological issues. Any one of them can cause severe pain. And parents of autistic children often report that their child is in pain, only to be told by their doctors, "Nonsense! That's just how autistic children behave!"

The autistic children whose above medical issues are treated are able to make enormous improvements. Yes, some of them are cured--their symptoms were caused entirely by one or more of these treatable medical conditions. Some are not cured, even if they are able to improve; their issues may have additional, unknown causes, or perhaps in their cases, the neurological damage is too severe or diagnosed too late to reverse.

Please take a look at http://www.karynseroussi.com/home.html.

I also suggest you read Special Diets For Special Kids by Lisa Lewis. Check our the reviews on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Special-Diets-Kids-Volumes-Combined/dp/1935274120), and please note that its recommended by Stephen Edelson, PhD, Director of the Center For The Treatment Of Autism, among others.
post #24 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post


Not giving children vitamins for a year is not the same thing as not giving thousands of children their vaccines. I am sorry but they do not even compare in how they could effect the individual child and society. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that front.

 You're right, with-holding vitamin supplements from children with a proven vitamin deficiency would be unethical, especially compared to with-holding vaccines from children who are, in most cases, at little to no risk of catching the disease the vaccine targets, and if they do catch the disease, they'll probably be fine (obviously this varies from disease to disease).   Unfortunately, you seem to be a bit confused about ethics, and experimental design, etc...

post #25 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

 

 

Sorry but these kinds of people make me sick. Exploiting poor parents who have children with autism into buying some vitamins and  giving them false hope. Despicable. 

 

This needs addressing as it comes up a lot.

 

I don't think the parents are being exploited. I give parents more credit than that. The vast majority of parents of kids with autism know the mainstream medical community thinks the biomedical approach to treating autism is bunk.  They know it, and they try it anyways because the independent research they have done has shown otherwise, they know someone personally who made significant gains with a biomedical approach, etc, etc.  In short - they think it is worth a shot.  

 

While I doubt the blog is your cup of tea, I invite you to read a  little bit of the Thinking Moms Revolution.  The women who write it are clearly articulate and intelligent (even if you disagree with their message) - and many of them are trying to help their children through biomedical approaches.  Do you really think they are just poor gullible parents?  

 

http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/read-the-blog-here/

 

I am not going to further comment on the biomedical approach (I know enough about it to know I know very little, lol).

 

I am not keen on articles such as the one in the OP.  I think any article that also sells product (Ritalin, anti-depressants, vitamins) should be taken with a grain of salt.  There is too much conflict of interest to be certain the article is presenting the ideas fairly and impartially.  I am sure there are some articles, discussions, studies etc of biomedical approaches that are not tied to selling vitamins.  


Edited by kathymuggle - 7/2/13 at 8:00am
post #26 of 79

I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but this looks interesting... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16310594 - on vitamin b 12 deficiency and brain function

 

If you google "picture of a brain with cerebral atrophy caused by vitamin b12 deficiency" the first link to come up should be a pdf from research gate which is the article the authors of the study published in Journal of the Japanese Society of Neurology. Sorry can't get a direct link to it.

post #27 of 79

"While I doubt the blog is your cup of tea, I invite you to read a  little bit of the Thinking Moms Revolution.  The women who write it are clearly articulate and intelligent (even if you disagree with their message) - and many of them are trying to help their children through biomedical approaches.  Do you really think they are just poor gullible parents?"

 

Honestly, I really do. Have you heard of Jim Laidler? He was an educated doctor. He was absolutely convinced these treatments helped his son. He helped run conferences, and even did speaking engagements with Wakefield. He said (and still says) his son showed improvements after they started the treatments from ages 3-4. He did the gluten free diets, the vitamins, minerals, chelation treatments, everything.   This is his blog http://www.autism-watch.org/about/bio2.shtml

 

In it, he describes how he was so easily duped by it all. He likened the hope that these parents have from these treatments to addictive drugs.  He says

 

"After years of “supplements,” restrictive diets and “unconventional” therapies (too many to list), our boys were improved, but were a long way from being cured. We were forced to carry their special foods with us whenever we left the house, lest a molecule of gluten or casein catapult them back to where we had begun. We were nearly broke, despite both of us having well-paying jobs, and we were on the verge of exhaustion. The beginning of the end was when my wife, suspecting that some of the “supplements” we were giving our older son weren’t having any effect, stopped them all—without telling me. I saw no difference, even after two months (when she finally told me). We had been chasing our tails, increasing this and decreasing that in response to every change in his behavior—and all the while his ups and downs had just been random fluctuation. My eyes began to open." 

 

In the next paragraph he says that on a trip to Disney World is when they stopped all of it except for speech and occupational therapy for both of their sons and saw that they continued to improve at the same rate-or faster, than before. 

 

And I guess this is my point. There are not any peer reviewed studies published in reputable journals that show that any of this makes a difference. There are natural fluctuations in children with autism and it has nothing to do with their diet. I have a younger cousin with autism and I saw him improve drastically with occupational and speech therapy. No vitamins or special diets. 

 

From the Autism Science Foundation : 

 

"Gluten Free-Casein Free (GFCF) Diet: Those who promote gluten (protein found in wheat, rye, and barley products) and casein (protein found in dairy products) free diets claim that children with autism have "leaky guts" that allow opioids to escape into the bloodstream and then travel to the brain and cause autistic behaviors. There is no evidence for this claim, and studies have found that compared to typically developing children, children with autism have no more opioids in their blood. Furthermore, children on the GFCF diet have been found to have lower bone density than controls, which could lead to osteoporosis. A large-scale study of the safety and efficacy of the GFCF diet indicated that children on the diet had similar outcomes to those who were not on the diet." 

 

There are a lot more on that site, if anyone wants to look.  

 

I really feel for parents that have children with autism, I am not an uncompassionate person and I love kids. I just think parents should stick with proven benefits like occupational therapy and not give false hope that these mostly untested therapies will cure their child. 

 

 

 
 

post #28 of 79

teacozy…do you have kids?

 

If so do you think you are duped or gullible in your choices?

 

At the end of the day, I think it is "buyer beware" with any product and "own your own choices."

 

Autism Science foundation has strong ties to Paul Offitt, who is extremely far from impartial or unbiased. 

post #29 of 79
Quote:
I just think parents should stick with proven benefits like occupational therapy and not give false hope that these mostly untested therapies will cure their child.

 

When a child has a physiological symptom, chronic constipation for instance, and normally that symptom would be treated but because the child has been labeled with autism, the doctor chalks it up to being just the way they are, what exactly is OT going to do to fix that problem???

post #30 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

teacozy…do you have kids?

 

If so do you think you are duped or gullible in your choices?

 

At the end of the day, I think it is "buyer beware" with any product and "own your own choices."

 

Autism Science foundation has strong ties to Paul Offitt, who is extremely far from impartial or unbiased. 

 

Yes I do. I have a son.  I don't feel duped or gullible but (knock on wood) he has never taken anything but Tylenol. Never had an infection or needed antibiotics, has never been to the ER and has only had mild colds or stomach viruses. 

 

If I was going to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars on a treatment for my son, it would have to be well founded in the scientific literature that it would have a clear benefit. I would not just trust anecdotal stories or people that are trying sell me vitamins.  If I asked a Doctor where the peer reviewed research was on a certain intervention and his reply was “Evidence-based medicine is best because there’s an objective foundation that can’t be faked,” he said. “But if it’s a controversial topic it will not appear in a peer-reviewed journal.”  (http://www.texasobserver.org/autism-inc-the-discredited-science-shady-treatments-and-rising-profits-behind-alternative-autism-treatments/)  Then no, I absolutely would not give it to my child, especially if there was a risk of harm like chelation therapy which actually killed a child. 

post #31 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by fruitfulmomma View Post

 

When a child has a physiological symptom, chronic constipation for instance, and normally that symptom would be treated but because the child has been labeled with autism, the doctor chalks it up to being just the way they are, what exactly is OT going to do to fix that problem???

 

I do not believe that a doctor would refuse to treat chronic constipation in any child. Unfortunately, there just isn't much that can done other that eat more fiber, increase water intake etc.  Suppositories can be used occasionally but can create a dependency. 

 

"In August of 2009, a study done by S.H. Ibrahim et al. did address some of these research issues. "U.S. News and World Report" writes that the researchers followed both autistic children and non-autistic children for 18 years, noting gastrointestinal problems. The study authors found very little difference in the frequency of problems like diarrhea and gastric reflux between children with autism and those without. They did find a higher percentage of constipation in autistic children but feeding issues like ritualistic eating and picky eating was higher in children with autism as well." 

 

"Autistic children often have very narrow food preferences that can contribute to constipation. It is this kind of increased incidence of picky eating in children with autism that could account for the higher levels of constipation, Ibrahim and his colleagues found. Autistic children may not get enough fiber.


Medications can also play a role. The stimulant medications that autistic children take can affect appetite, digestion or influence food issues, Ibrahim reported.
 

 http://www.livestrong.com/article/496272-constipation-in-children-with-autism/#ixzz2XuCdqFSN

 

So I think there are many plausible reasons why an autistic child may have more problems with constipation than children without autism. 

post #32 of 79

Except they do. Many, many parents of children with autism have repeatedly testified that their children's physilogical symptoms are ignored once they have the autism label.

 

And there is a lot to do to treat constipation including the gf or gfcf diets, mag supplements, etc...

post #33 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by fruitfulmomma View Post

Except they do. Many, many parents of children with autism have repeatedly testified that their children's physilogical symptoms are ignored once they have the autism label.

 

And there is a lot to do to treat constipation including the gf or gfcf diets, mag supplements, etc...

 

Well the problem with anecdotal stories is that there is no way to really verify or debate them.  I have already stated that I think there are many reasons children with autism have more issues with constipation, there was even more information on the link I provided if you are interested.  I do not believe there is anything physically different between children without autism that are constipated and children with autism that are constipated. Here is a link from the Mayo Clinic on treatment options http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/constipation-in-children/DS01138/DSECTION=treatments-and-drugs.  Treatments include over the counter medications like Metamucil, laxatives, enemas, and they even provide remedies like adding more fiber rich foods to your child's diet. 

 

But my issue is not really with constipation it has to do with the article in the OP that stated that a child could be "cured" through vitamins, organic eating, and diet changes, since there is no real scientific evidence that it does. So I am not sure why this has turned into a thread about constipation...

post #34 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

I do not believe that a doctor would refuse to treat chronic constipation in any child. Unfortunately, there just isn't much that can done other that eat more fiber, increase water intake etc.  Suppositories can be used occasionally but can create a dependency. 

 

 

Google Alex Spourdalakis. Unfortunately, you will have to read 'anti-vax' websites to find out about him because no one else gave a sh!t.

 

And for your information, there a a lot more that can be done about chronic constipation than eat more fiber or drink more water, which in most cases won't do a thing to help these children who's gut microbiota have been decimated.

 

teacozy, I really hope you never have to deal with major health issues with your kid, because you clearly do not have enough information at this point.

post #35 of 79
The studies that purport to show no link between a gluten-free/casein-free diet and autism are extremely misleading, as is your summary. Those 18 years that the chdren were supposedly "followed?" It's actually a retrospective look at reports of gastrointestinal issues, and feeding issues, and then comparing the number of reports between autistic children and controls.

They found that, YES, there were a higher number of reports of gastrointestinal symptoms from parents of autistic children--and remember, this goes all the way back to 1976, --before there was an Internet,, before anyone even knew about a gr/cf diet. Even Wakefield wasn't considering celiac disease as a possibility for autistic children.

But, incomprehensibly, the study concludes that a ""neurobehavioral" etiology is more to blame for the gastrointestinal symptoms. In other words, they suggest that the autistic kids are causing their own symptoms.

Even more outrageous is the mainstream media coverage of the study. The NY Times headline screams, "Study Finds Diet Had No Effect On Autism!"

BUT THE STUDY NEVER LOOKED AT THE EFFECT OF DIET ON AUTISM. In fact, diet was never part of the study, at all.

In 1977, the incidence of celiac disease was thought to be 1/10,000.

So was the incidence of autism.
post #36 of 79
Teacozy, you are apparently completely unaware that celiac disease can cause chronic constipation.

I'm trying to understand why you think you know anything at all about autistic children and gastrointestinal problems.
post #37 of 79

Why was constipation brought up? Uh, because as I said several comments back, the parents who are using biophysical treatments are generally treating specific physiological symptoms and have found that in many cases when the physiological symptoms are treated then the symptoms of autism lessen or disappear. And if they don't? If the only thing that happens is that the kid is no longer in misery from being unable to go? I fail to see how it was a failure. 

 

Sorry I don't have any double blind study's to prove that the medical establishment discriminates against families who have children with autism. If you need a double blind study for everything, please kindly go deleat your link above that gave us an anecdotal story about one parent's experience with biophysical treatments.

post #38 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

 

Google Alex Spourdalakis. Unfortunately, you will have to read 'anti-vax' websites to find out about him because no one else gave a sh!t.

 

And for your information, there a a lot more that can be done about chronic constipation than eat more fiber or drink more water, which in most cases won't do a thing to help these children who's gut microbiota have been decimated.

 

teacozy, I really hope you never have to deal with major health issues with your kid, because you clearly do not have enough information at this point.

 

Studies have not been consistent on whether or not the guts of autistic children are different from the guts of non autistic children.  Here is a study from Australia that has been one of the largest to date

 

"Contradicting a popular hypothesis in autism, a new study from Australia has found no connection between autism and bacteria in the gut. The analysis, published 20 September in the journal Autism Research, reports that the gastrointestinal (GI) systems of children with autism harbor the same bacteria as those of their typically developing siblings1.  Based on 51 children with autism and 53 unaffected siblings, the study is larger than most studies of the microbiome — the collection of microbes in the body — in children with autism. Because siblings share genes and their environment, this approach reduces ‘noise’ in the data from factors unrelated to autism, the researchers say." 

 

Other studies have shown that there is a difference, but many of those had problems as well. Mainly a small sample size etc.  

post #39 of 79

"The studies that purport to show no link between a gluten-free/casein-free diet and autism are extremely misleading, as is your summary." 

 

From the Mayo Clinic website 

 

"There's no evidence that special diets are an effective autism treatment.

Some people believe that diets that are free of a protein found in dairy products (casein) and a protein found in many grains (gluten) affect the brain development and behavior that causes autism in children. However, there's little evidence that diet triggers autism or that restricting gluten and casein improves autism symptoms. And for growing children, restrictive diets can lead to nutritional deficiencies.Autism is a complex brain disorder that has no known cure. For this reason, many frustrated parents turn to unproven alternative treatments — such as restrictive diets that eliminate gluten and casein — in an attempt to help their children." 

Are you going to claim that Mayo Clinic is also biased and wrong? 

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/autism-treatment/AN01519

So can you please refrain from saying I don't know what I am talking about, I am ignorant etc?  I am sorry but the evidence is just not there and Mayo Clinic is a reputable source and I don't believe that trusting something they say constitutes someone as being gullible or stupid. 

Ok I am going to take a break from this thread. Have fun everyone! 

post #40 of 79

Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that normal gut flora, the bacteria that inhabit our intestines, have a significant impact on brain development and subsequent adult behavior.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-neuroscience-of-gut

 

This is from the link you provided:

 

Quote:
But, he adds, “I disagree with their conclusion that there’s no relationship between intestinal bacteria and GI dysfunction and autism.”
For one thing, Finegold says, the results of the study may be confounded by antibiotic use.

 

Quote:
Palombo agrees that it’s too early to rule out a connection between intestinal bacteria and autism. A handful of the children with autism have various bacterial abnormalities, such as an elevated level of one species or another, he says, indicating that a subset of children with the disorder may show differences.

 

Quote:
It’s really hard to interpret microbiome results,” Lozupone says. “It’s a new field — we’re still trying to figure out how to analyze data

 

Also, siblings can eat the same food but have different reactions--for example, some children have severe food allergies while their siblings do not. I don't understand why this study on autistic children and their siblings proves there is no link between autism and intestinal bacteria.

 

That entire article basically says they don't know anything yet. I agree!


Edited by BeckyBird - 7/2/13 at 10:56am
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