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New study links certain IVF treatments to autism, mental disability.

post #1 of 82
Thread Starter 

I thought this was interesting! 

 

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE96115320130702?irpc=932

 

 

"When we looked at IVF treatments combined, we found there was no overall increased risk for autism, but a small increased risk of intellectual disability," said Sven Sandin of King's College London's Institute of Psychiatry, who co-led the study.

"When we separated the different IVF treatments, we found traditional IVF is safe, but that IVF involving ICSI, which is specifically recommended for paternal infertility, is associated with an increased risk of both intellectual disability and autism in children," he told a briefing in London." 

 

I know I've seen studies that say fathers over 40 have double the risk of having a child with autism, so maybe fathers really do play a bigger role that we think, and not vaccines. 

 

What do you guys think? 


Edited by teacozy - 7/8/13 at 7:47am
post #2 of 82

I think it is an interesting study, but certainly not one that can conclusively draw any conclusions.  There are so many other things that could be contributing to the increase in autism that are not controlled for. As with many things they look at - there is a correlation, but as provaxers love to point out - correlation does not equal causation. 

post #3 of 82

I think you might benefit from reading about epigentics and the germline to understand how IVF babies might have a higher rate of autism. That doesn't mean vaccines are any less of a culprit. 

 

Here is a good start for you, it's a blog, but the author (pro-vax) has some very interesting information:

 

http://prenatalexposures.blogspot.com/

 

PS: you might want to edit the quote in your OP, it is 110 words over the allowable limit.

post #4 of 82
Thread Starter 

That blog link would not explain why babies born through regular IVF do not have an increase chance of autism but babies born through IVF ICSI do.  

 

In fact, that study debunks her whole notion that drugs associated with regular IVF increase the rate of autism- they found no link. 

post #5 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

That blog link would not explain why babies born through regular IVF do not have an increase chance of autism but babies born through IVF ICSI do.  

 

In fact, that study debunks her whole notion that drugs associated with regular IVF increase the rate of autism- they found no link. 

 

You obviously didn't read much of her blog, because you replied to me within 11 minutes of my post. I guess you really aren't interested in learning anything new.

post #6 of 82
Hmm interesting. We considered IVF but decided adoption was a better route: less risk of creating problems/challenges, higher chance of solving problems.

I'm already convinced there's no link between vaccines and autism. So this study doesn't do anything for me in that way.
post #7 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

 

You obviously didn't read much of her blog, because you replied to me within 11 minutes of my post. I guess you really aren't interested in learning anything new.

 

I read the link you sent.  

 

But no, I did not read her entire blog, sorry to disappoint you. 

 

I am not really sure what your point is, though.  Are you arguing that she does not believe that regular IVF is a potential cause of autism? That she only believes IVF with ICSI is?  She stated that she believed that multiple drugs (which are used for regular IVF) have potential negative consequences.  The study I just linked did not show that. 

 

I just think there is possibly a larger link than we currently realize to the fathers role in autism.  

post #8 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

 

You obviously didn't read much of her blog, because you replied to me within 11 minutes of my post. I guess you really aren't interested in learning anything new.

 

I read the link you sent.  

 

But no, I did not read her entire blog, sorry to disappoint you. 

 

I am not really sure what your point is, though.  Are you arguing that she does not believe that regular IVF is a potential cause of autism? That she only believes IVF with ICSI is?  She stated that she believed that multiple drugs (which are used for regular IVF) have potential negative consequences.  The study I just linked did not show that. 

 

I just think there is possibly a larger link than we currently realize to the fathers role in autism.  

I meant you might learn something about epigentics and germ line cells and their relation to autism. She has a great deal of information on how drugs can effect the germline, but you needed to read beyond the first paragraph or so. Watching her short video presentation at the Evironmental Epigentics Symposium would have given you a taste of what she says. As I said, this person is far from anti-vax, so no need to dismiss her information on that basis.

 

As for the "old fathers" chestnut.....

 

Autism - Why Autism Research Goes Nowhere - The Reserchers Who Take Us Down All The Blind Alleys

post #9 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

I meant you might learn something about epigentics and germ line cells and their relation to autism. She has a great deal of information on how drugs can effect the germline, but you needed to read beyond the first paragraph or so. Watching her short video presentation at the Evironmental Epigentics Symposium would have given you a taste of what she says. As I said, this person is far from anti-vax, so no need to dismiss her information on that basis.

 

As for the "old fathers" chestnut.....

 

Autism - Why Autism Research Goes Nowhere - The Reserchers Who Take Us Down All The Blind Alleys

 

I don't need to read the entire blog. I believe there are multiple factors that cause autism (not vaccines though).  I do not think that fertility treatments from IVF do, though. The study had a very large sample size and it found no difference between the general population and children conceived through regular IVF  except when paternal infertility was involved. She wrote that article before this study was released. 

post #10 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

I don't need to read the entire blog. I believe there are multiple factors that cause autism (not vaccines though).  I do not think that fertility treatments from IVF do, though. The study had a very large sample size and it found no difference between the general population and children conceived through regular IVF  except when paternal infertility was involved. She wrote that article before this study was released. 

What a shame you are not open to learning about epigentics and the germline, it is a very interesting area of study and is the likely precursor of autism and other neurological issues in children, anyone having children now should have this information, it is very compelling.

 

As for vaccines not being a cause of autism - you are free to believe whatever you want. 

post #11 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

What a shame you are not open to learning about epigentics and the germline, it is a very interesting area of study and is the likely precursor of autism and other neurological issues in children, anyone having children now should have this information, it is very compelling.

 

As for vaccines not being a cause of autism - you are free to believe whatever you want. 

 

The lady who wrote that blog is not a Doctor, she is not a scientist, and has no medical background and her assertion that IVF drugs are harmful to children is not something I agree with.  If there is a blog that is not anti vax that is written by someone who has a real background on this field, I'd be happy to give it a look. 

 

I am a stay at home mom so I do not have hours to just sit and read an entire blog (I wish I did!). 

post #12 of 82

Teacozy - thanks for sharing!  

 

I really am interested in all possible environmental links to autism, I only heard about IVF-autism link a few days ago.

 

Mizram, that blog is quite cool.  I found it a few days ago while doing a search for "autism epidemic and denial."  Here was her blog about it:

http://prenatalexposures.blogspot.ca/2013/05/the-federal-response-to-autism-epidemic.html

 

another link in kind, this one on autism and anesthesia:

 

http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/thinking-out-loud-anesthesia-and-autism/

 

If you do not read thinkmom, try this one:

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500368_162-4537071.html

 

I suspect there are multiple environmental links to autism.  I subscribe to the buckets theory - everyone has a bucket of environmental nasties they can hold.  When the bucket spills over, you have problems in one way or another.  Everyones bucket seems to be of a different size - figuring out if your child is born with a big bucket or small one would be great - but at this point in time, we simply do not have much to go on other than family trees.  IVF and vaccines could both be triggers for autism in some people, it does not have to be one or the other.

post #13 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

 

The lady who wrote that blog is not a Doctor, she is not a scientist, and has no medical background and her assertion that IVF drugs are harmful to children is not something I agree with.  If there is a blog that is not anti vax that is written by someone who has a real background on this field, I'd be happy to give it a look. 

 

I am a stay at home mom so I do not have hours to just sit and read an entire blog (I wish I did!). 

Are you talking about this blog?

 

http://prenatalexposures.blogspot.ca/2013/05/worse-than-thalidomide-consequences-of.html

 

I just took a look - it is reasonably well cited.  I find well cited articles save me time, not waste it, but it is your call.  

post #14 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Teacozy - thanks for sharing!  

 

I really am interested in all possible environmental links to autism, I only heard about IVF-autism link a few days ago.

 

Mizram, that blog is quite cool.  I found it a few days ago while doing a search for "autism epidemic and denial."  Here was her blog about it:

http://prenatalexposures.blogspot.ca/2013/05/the-federal-response-to-autism-epidemic.html

 

another link in kind, this one on autism and anesthesia:

 

http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/thinking-out-loud-anesthesia-and-autism/

 

If you do not read thinkmom, try this one:

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500368_162-4537071.html

 

I suspect there are multiple environmental links to autism.  I subscribe to the buckets theory - everyone has a bucket of environmental nasties they can hold.  When the bucket spills over, you have problems in one way or another.  Everyones bucket seems to be of a different size - figuring out if your child is born with a big bucket or small one would be great - but at this point in time, we simply do not have much to go on other than family trees.  IVF and vaccines could both be triggers for autism in some people, it does not have to be one or the other.

 

I agree that there are most likely multiple causes of autism.  Such a small percentage of children are born through IVF and an even smaller percent through ICSI that is obviously makes no sense that it would be a major contributing factor but I do think it is interesting nonetheless! 

 

I think there is some good evidence that men contribute more than we may think to the rise of autism. Maybe something in the environment is effecting their sperm, who knows.  There are more older fathers now than before as well. 

post #15 of 82

Study:  http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1570279

 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/02/25/171828067/folic-acid-for-pregnant-mothers-cuts-kids-autism-risk

 

"A common vitamin supplement appears to dramatically reduce a woman's risk of having a child with autism.

A study of more than 85,000 women in Norway found that those who started taking folic acid before getting pregnant were about 40 percent less likely to have a child who developed the disorder, researchers reported in theJournal of the American Medical Association."

 

 

 

 

post #16 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

 

The lady who wrote that blog is not a Doctor, she is not a scientist, and has no medical background and her assertion that IVF drugs are harmful to children is not something I agree with.  If there is a blog that is not anti vax that is written by someone who has a real background on this field, I'd be happy to give it a look. 

 

I am a stay at home mom so I do not have hours to just sit and read an entire blog (I wish I did!). 

Sigh. You really didn't read anything did you? Her blog is so much more than IVF, but your loss. You might find it a better use of your time than hanging out here. 

post #17 of 82
Quote:

 

I think there is some good evidence that men contribute more than we may think to the rise of autism. Maybe something in the environment is effecting their sperm, who knows.  There are more older fathers now than before as well. 

The above 'fact' is not scientific, and you have provided no proof for this statement. Prior to contreception, women were having babies well into their forties, don't you think the fathers of these children were old also? Autism was unheard of prior to the 1930s when Kanner first indenified it.

post #18 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

The above 'fact' is not scientific, and you have provided no proof for this statement. Prior to contreception, women were having babies well into their forties, don't you think the fathers of these children were old also? Autism was unheard of prior to the 1930s when Kanner first indenified it.

"Data collected by the National Center for Health Statistics, part of the Centers for Disease Control and

Prevention, show that in the U.S. the number of births to men aged 40 to 49 nearly tripled between 1980
and 2004, rising from 120,702 to 328,465. Much of that jump is the result of an increase in the overall
population. But there has been a shift over the past generation toward more older fathers beyond what can
be accounted for by the growth in population. Birth rates for men in their 40s (a number that takes
population growth into account) have risen by up to 40 percent since 1980—whereas birth rates for men
younger than 30 have fallen by as much as 21 percent." 
 
 
That was just a quick search on google. 
post #19 of 82

THis very question popped into my mind the other day, beings as a friend of mine has a dd, 11yrs old, and a very odd little girl, very unlike any other little girl of any friend of mine...odd in the sense, she won't look at you, will barely speak loud enough to be heard,  unsocial, rude, and still has incontinence issues.  She is also an IVF baby. 

post #20 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Study:  http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1570279

 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/02/25/171828067/folic-acid-for-pregnant-mothers-cuts-kids-autism-risk

 

"A common vitamin supplement appears to dramatically reduce a woman's risk of having a child with autism.

A study of more than 85,000 women in Norway found that those who started taking folic acid before getting pregnant were about 40 percent less likely to have a child who developed the disorder, researchers reported in theJournal of the American Medical Association."

 

 

 

 

 

Going further into this (and I think it relates to the "older man" questions as well).

 

50 years ago we did not need to supplement with folate to cut the risk of our children having autism.  Very, very few children had autism (although some had undiagnosed Aspergers).  Oh, maybe folate did cut your risk - from 1/10 000 to 1/ 14000 or some such thing - but the bottom line was the chances of your child having autism were slim.  Clearly, folate is not a smoking gun or the catalyst for this change in our society.

 

Assuming the study is correct (and it might be) why is folate now important in decreasing the chance of autism?  I see 2 possibilities:

 

1.  Folate was always associated with decreasing the chance of autism.  It simply used to be that very few people got autism, ergo, not much attention was paid to it.

2.  Smoothing in us has changed whereby we now need more folate than we used.  What has changed is unknown.

 

I don't really think that Norwegian diets of yesteryear had more folate in them that they do now.  I could be wrong, but folate has been tied to spina bifida for years, so I suspect its use is fairly high.  Moreover, while our diet of yesterday may have contained more whole, clean foods - I don't think it necessary had more fruit and veg.  They just did not have those things in winter.  

 

The older man thing is similar.  It could be that younger fathers are associated with less autism (let's say a 20% less  (made-up figure)).  If the autism rate is 1/10 000 in the general public and 1/8000 with older fathers, the chances of your child getting autism was pretty low, no matter the fathers age.  If the risk is 1/50 it is a whole other ballgame.  Likewise, perhaps something in us has changed that means older father are more likely to have autistic offspring?  

 

In any event, I do know if I were planning to become pregnant, I would look seriously into the role of folate and autism prevention.  Smoking gun/catalyst for change/correlation but not causation…whatever… a 40% reduction in the chance of autism is nothing to sneeze at!


Edited by kathymuggle - 7/8/13 at 7:24pm
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