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Why it's pointless to debate anti vaxers article

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/brave-brave-sir-robin/

 

What do you think? Do you guys agree/disagree with this? 

 

One part of the article 

 

"It has been argued that scientists have a huge advantage in debates because we have the facts on our side. Well, so we do, but that’s not an advantage at all. Rather, it’s a limitation. The audience members who are not scientists can rarely discriminate between facts and pseudofacts. The pseudoscientist has an unlimited supply of sources and claims and validations. He can say whatever he wants. If compelling rhetoric would benefit from any given argument, he can always make that argument. Pseudosciences have typically been designed around compelling rhetorical arguments. The facts of science, on the other hand, rarely happen to coincide with the best possible logic argument. Having the facts on your side is not an advantage, it’s a limitation; and it’s a limitation that’s very dangerous to the cause of science should you throw it onto the debate floor." 


Edited by whompingwillow - 7/17/13 at 7:16am
post #2 of 16
edited, as the most offensive stuff was removed.  Carry on.  

Edited by kathymuggle - 7/17/13 at 9:49am
post #3 of 16
Thread Starter 

This is a support forum only isn't it? 

 

I am sure lots of things on the anti vaccine support forum could be found to be offensive.

 

Just looking at the first page there is a post called "

Pro-vax trolls are impersonating disease-injured families on comment boards" 

Many of the comments are something I would consider offensive. Like one asking that this information be made a "sticky" for those on the fence about vaccines basically implying that people should take VPD reaction claims on this site with a grain of salt.  My husbands father died from Hepatitis. So yes, I find it offensive. I'm sure if a similar post was made that you should take any claim of a vaccine reaction with a grain of salt on these forums (including autism) that many anti vaccers would find it offensive, especially if it was asked to be made a sticky. 

 

But maybe I am confused as to what a support forum is? Can people post on them if they find something offensive? 

 

In any case, I edited the first part out.  But I am genuinely confused...


Edited by whompingwillow - 7/17/13 at 7:38am
post #4 of 16

/mod hat

 

Good Morning Ladies -

Imagine my suprise waking up to flags in the mod que. lol.gif Who needs coffee?

Thanks for editting the OP, WhompingWillow.

Kathy, please edit the offensive part out of your post as well.

 

Mindful Vaccination is support only, just as I'm not Vaccinating is support only. I actually clarified things here in this thread (with all the links to Cynthia's thread) http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1386588/mindful-vaccination-transparent-modding - that may help if there is any confusion.

 

 

Ok, must make this brief as my typing arm is numb. Dang, that's a trippy feeling.

post #5 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamiro View Post

/mod hat

 

Good Morning Ladies -

Imagine my suprise waking up to flags in the mod que. lol.gif Who needs coffee?

Thanks for editting the OP, WhompingWillow.

Kathy, please edit the offensive part out of your post as well.

 

Mindful Vaccination is support only, just as I'm not Vaccinating is support only. I actually clarified things here in this thread (with all the links to Cynthia's thread) http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1386588/mindful-vaccination-transparent-modding - that may help if there is any confusion.

 

 

Ok, must make this brief as my typing arm is numb. Dang, that's a trippy feeling.

 

Thank you for the link!

 

So just for further clarification, even if someone finds something offensive, they are not allowed to post and say so on either of the support forums correct? 

post #6 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by whompingwillow View Post

 

Thank you for the link!

 

So just for further clarification, even if someone finds something offensive, they are not allowed to post and say so on either of the support forums correct? 

I read the link as well.  It did not mention offensiveness.

 

I would like to ask you, though…do you really want that?  Do you want a forum where you post highly offensive stuff over here, and I post highly offensive stuff over there? I get offensive is somewhat subjective - but let's be real here -something like "baby killer" is obviously offensive and inflammatory, anywhere.  

 

In any event, I will get off your thread now.  

 

To answer the OP - there is very little point in arguing with hard core pro-vaxxers or non-vaxxers, if the goal is to change their mind.   People usually debate for the lurkers or those who are undecided.  


Edited by kathymuggle - 7/17/13 at 10:22am
post #7 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I read the link as well.  It did not mention offensiveness.

 

I would like to ask you, though…do you really want that?  Do you want a forum where you post highly offensive stuff over here, and I post highly offensive stuff over there? I get offensive is somewhat subjective - but let's be real here -something like "baby killer" is obviously offensive.

 

In a support forum if those are the rules, then yes.  As long as you aren't making a post attacking a specific person then I would just ignore it.

 

Would you want me to make a post that says I think there should be a sticky for those people on the fence about vaccines that vaccine reactions reported by people on this forum should be taken with a grain of salt?  Because a post just like that is in the anti vaccine support forum, which I find offensive as I have already stated. 

 

Point is, something that is offensive to one side may not be offensive to the other.  Which is part of the reason why there are separate forums with separate rules. 

 

It is just irritating that this is the 2nd time in a couple days that something from the vaccine support forum has been commented on in a non supportive way (which is against the forum rules).  

 

The quote in question was nothing like calling someone a baby killer, thats comparing apples to spaceships. 


Edited by whompingwillow - 7/17/13 at 2:23pm
post #8 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by whompingwillow View Post

 

 

The quote in question was nothing like calling someone a baby killer, thats comparing apples to spaceships. 

I used "baby killer" as an example of something either side could say to the other; I was not trying to say they were equal.  

 

So if the rules say we can call vaxxers or non-vaxxers names on support forums - that is fine?  Whatever.  It is hardly the highest use of the fourms. 

 

This is the second time in several days something has been commented on because this is the second time people have felt that others are hiding behind this support forum and quotes to say nasty stuff about non-vaxxers.  You could have very easily posted this thread without the fairly vile link and quote.  

 

If you see someone saying highly offensive stuff about vaxxers on INV, you are more than welcome to flag it to see if a mod thinks it is appropriate.  


Edited by kathymuggle - 7/17/13 at 11:01am
post #9 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I used "baby killer" as an example of something either side could say to the other; I was not trying to say they were equal.  

 

So if the rules say we can call vaxxers or non-vaxxers names on support forums - that is fine?  Whatever.  It is hardly the highest use of the fourms. 

 

This is the second time in several days something has been commented on because people are feeling that others are hiding behind this support forum and quotes to say nasty stuff about non-vaxxers.  You could have very easily posted this thread without the fairly vile link and quote.  

 

If you see someone saying highly offensive stuff about vaxxers on INV, you are more than welcome to flag it to see if a mod thinks it is appropriate.  

 

Yes exactly. If you think something is offensive then flag it.  

 

Why the need to make a comment saying " I find this offensive so I'm going to flag it, you should too!"  

 

Just flag it and move on.  Commenting that you are flagging is against the forum rules that she linked, since that is not support.

post #10 of 16

This forum is for support. Support needs to stay on topic. Please make edits as I've asked, and stop arguing with each other!

Thank you in advance!

 

 

Quote:
So just for further clarification, even if someone finds something offensive, they are not allowed to post and say so on either of the support forums correct?

I'm going to say you're correct on this. If Cynthia or some one says something different, or I forget that I said this - remind me of this post. Preggo brain and all.blush.gif Just flag the post instead of starting a debate in a support forum. Thanks ladies!!

post #11 of 16

Me? I say send me some links to a few skeptic sites that aren't so...how do I say this without going against the UA?  

 

...

 

Both Skeptic sites and NFL sites need to be respectful of the reasons behind why people may feel a tendency to think differently than them in order for me to be inclined to read  them. If some alternative site uses cheap shots to get a point across, I pretty much write them off. Same goes for a Skeptic site. To me, we are all emotional decision makers, to imply otherwise while writing articles from such a hotly emotional place lacks self-awareness, which is just too much for me to reconcile when a person is making fun of someone else. That's my two cents. 

post #12 of 16

Personally I am not a debater at all -- makes me nervous and upset -- and I've gotten tired of trying to discuss scientific concepts with people who think they know a lot, while in reality may have read a lot more than the layperson about one narrow area but have a shaky or nonexistent grasp on science in the broad sense and therefore lack the ability to discuss scientific concepts or put the facts into broader perspective. I agree completely with the quote in the OP, though I do find parts of the article a little snide for my taste. 

post #13 of 16

Wompingwillow, will you please PM an admin about combining multiple accounts?:

post #14 of 16
Sigh. I miss the old Sel/Del sub-forum.
post #15 of 16

No kidding. My kids are getting their first (of very few) vaxes in October, but like I feel welcome posting in a forum with posts about "antivaxers." eyesroll.gif

post #16 of 16

I do think that throwing everyone on the spectrum who gives anywhere from 1 vax up to fully vaxed into one subforum doesn't make a lot of sense, although personally I didn't get much out of the subforum back when it was entirely "I'm maybe kind of considering giving one vaccine but I think vaccines are mostly horrible" and "How do I get an exemption?" Not that there aren't still plenty of those posts here.

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